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Old 08-09-2015, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I didn't think there was a collective 'Islam opinion'. And I'm not interested in the 'Islam opinion'...I am interested in what the Quran and hadiths say.

What is said is well sourced.

Abu Dawud 2150 (added by me for context)
Muslim 3433 (added by me for context)
Sura 4:24 (added by me for context)
Sura 66
Mizanu'l Haqq, page 330
Mishkat" II, pages 680-681
Rauzatu'r Safâ , Vol. II, page 188
Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 436

After reading this I would see why Muslims would want to hide it all.

The first question is who are these guys:
Mizanu'l Haqq, page 330

Karl Gottlieb Pfander (1803–1865), spelt also as Carl Gottlieb Pfander or C.G. Pfander, was a Basel Mission missionary in Central Asia and Trans-Caucasus, and the Church Missionary Society polemicist to North-Western Provinces—later became Agra Province - present Agra in Uttar Pradesh -- North India. He was renowned for using controversy to win Muslims for Christ and top of all the missionaries of his day as the Christian champion against Islam—used his entire life in the effort to convert Mohammedans.[1][2][3][4][5]

He authored Mizan al-Haqq (The balance of truth), an apologetic, Remarks on the nature of Muhammedanism, and more.[1][2][3][4][6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Gottlieb_Pfander





Mishkat" II, pages 680-681

I am not Familiar with that.


Rauzatu'r Safâ , Vol. II, page 188

I can not find anything about this except it is often Quoted on anti-Islam sites


Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 436

Not impressed by a biography written in 1933 by a former lawyer educated in Paris

The Life of The Noble Prophet Muhammad, 1933; a biography of the Noble Prophet Muhammad Sallalahu Alaihi Wa Salam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Husayn_Haykal
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Old 08-10-2015, 03:20 AM
 
1,244 posts, read 711,663 times
Reputation: 1201
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Let's see....Allah told Muhammed that it's OK to rape

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECUoUimUUP8
 
Old 08-10-2015, 05:42 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,822 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
There are no examples of that. You may perceive this way, but I have never read anything about something like that.

Quote:


In July 2007, seven key leaders of an Islamic charity known as the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development (HLF) went on trial for charges that they had: (a) provided "material support and resources" to a foreign terrorist organization (namely Hamas); (b) engaged in money laundering; and (c) breached the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, which prohibits transactions that threaten American national security. Along with the seven named defendants, the U.S. government released a list of approximately 300 "unindicted co-conspirators" and "joint venturers." During the course of the HLF trial, many incriminating documents were entered into evidence. Perhaps the most significant of these was "An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America," by the Muslim Brotherhood operative Mohamed Akram. Federal investigators found Akram's memo in the home of Ismael Elbarasse, a founder of the Dar Al-Hijrah mosque in Falls Church, Virginia, during a 2004 search. Elbarasse was a member of the Palestine Committee, which the Muslim Brotherhood had created to support Hamas in the United States.

Written sometime in 1987 but not formally published until May 22, 1991, Akram's 18-page document listed the Brotherhood’s 29 likeminded "organizations of our friends" that shared the common goal of dismantling American institutions and turning the U.S. into a Muslim nation. These "friends" were identified by Akram and the Brotherhood as groups that could help convince Muslims "that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and 'sabotaging' its miserable house by their hands ... so that ... God's religion [Islam] is made victorious over all other religions."

The Muslim Brotherhood's "General Strategic Goal" for North America - Discover the Networks
 
Old 08-10-2015, 07:09 AM
 
1,244 posts, read 711,663 times
Reputation: 1201
These are your sources...A right wing nut site ? I can go on any right wing nut site and find "evidence" that ISIL has training camps down in Mexico and Al Qaida has 22 operational cells on US soil. They even claim muslims worship the moon. Note that the document does not quote from an islamic source but from the alleged words of a man, Mr.Akram.

Even in the case Mr Akram actually wrote that, that would be his ideas, not the religious opinion. You are playing the blame game where you are looking at a person from a minority group and then paint the whole group with a large brush. Mr Akram allegedly tried to take America over (!!!), therefore the muslims are trying to take over and Islam allows cheating, according to you.

By that logic, when George Bush called the war on terrorism a crusade, this meant the christians of the world were trying to resume the crusades, plus Bush was the president of the most powerful country in the world therefore his words had real weight.

Sun Tzu wrote that all warfare is based on deception, so maybe you should start getting worried about the chinese immigrants, just in case they would view themselves at war with the US ?

Perhaps the most important point is that since all countries use deception in warfare, and certainly many non muslims view themselves at war with Islam, you could apply your own logic to yourself and your fellow disbelievers : you might cheat and lie to muslims in order to further your agenda.

If you try hard enough you will convince yourself that Islam authorizes lies. The religion however, has not changed and will never change, it still views lying as a major sin leading to the Hellfire.

Last edited by Sorel36; 08-10-2015 at 08:07 AM.. Reason: grammar
 
Old 08-10-2015, 06:51 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,643,028 times
Reputation: 1860
Well, let's not forget that Mohammed said that 'war is deceit.'

And we non-believers are all part of the house of war people.
 
Old 08-10-2015, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Well, let's not forget that Mohammed said that 'war is deceit.'

And we non-believers are all part of the house of war people.
I think you will find a good many of us Muslims do not believe all Non_Muslims are part of the house of war.

I am not aware of any Muslim nation that is currently at war with a Non_Muslim Nation.

Bangladesh is the largest supplier of Military troops for the UN

As of October 2014, Bangladesh contributed the highest number of total personnel to United Nations Peacekeeping Operations; with 8,758 personnel attached to various UN peacekeeping forces worldwide.[3][4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangla...ekeeping_Force

Virtually all major Islamic Nations are US allies. there are US Military bases in almost every Major Islamic Nation except Iran.

Since America has 700 Military bases in Arab Muslim nations?
Does that mean, Arab Muslims have the right to put 700 military bases in All states of the United States? so it would be fair?
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...4155351AAq08Df
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Old 08-10-2015, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think you will find a good many of us Muslims do not believe all Non_Muslims are part of the house of war.

I am not aware of any Muslim nation that is currently at war with a Non_Muslim Nation.

Bangladesh is the largest supplier of Military troops for the UN

As of October 2014, Bangladesh contributed the highest number of total personnel to United Nations Peacekeeping Operations; with 8,758 personnel attached to various UN peacekeeping forces worldwide.[3][4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangla...ekeeping_Force

Virtually all major Islamic Nations are US allies. there are US Military bases in almost every Major Islamic Nation except Iran.

Since America has 700 Military bases in Arab Muslim nations?
Does that mean, Arab Muslims have the right to put 700 military bases in All states of the United States? so it would be fair?
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...4155351AAq08Df
The 'Muslim Nation' you mentioned above are merely pseudo-Muslim-Nation.
Btw, Bangladesh is a secular nation.
In 2010, the Bangladesh Supreme Court restored secularism as one of the basic tenets of the Constitution[ but Islam remained the state religion. -wiki
The pure Muslim Nation [ommatin?] which the Quran allude to is "IS" [ISIS] which satisfy almost the full checklists that represent what a Quranic Muslim-Nation should be.
 
Old 08-11-2015, 05:07 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,822 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
These are your sources...A right wing nut site ?
The original source is going to be the FBI or whatever government department, and then the author himself. Unless you actually have good grounds to challenge that...

Quote:

You are playing the blame game where you are looking at a person from a minority group and then paint the whole group with a large brush.
Let's look at what you said:

"There are no examples of that. You may perceive this way, but I have never read anything about something like that."


I only need to find one person and one example to refute that claim.

And of course, I have never tried to "paint the whole group". I said that many fundies could think in that way. That isn't a claim about "all Muslims" by any means.


Quote:
Mr Akram allegedly tried to take America over (!!!), therefore the muslims are trying to take over and Islam allows cheating, according to you.
You said there were "no examples of that". So I gave you an example. That does refute your own statement.

It's entirely plausible that some other Muslim fundies would share his viewpoint. Not all Muslims. No one said that.

As far as Islam allowing deception in the case of war, I thought everyone accepted that point?

Quote:
By that logic, when George Bush called the war on terrorism a crusade, this meant the christians of the world were trying to resume the crusades
Your own "logic" here is just nonsense. You look at the context and usage of words to understand their meaning. In the case of the word "jihad" it's still often used in the traditional sense that includes warfare, and the context of the quote in question indicates exactly that.

Quote:
Sun Tzu wrote that all warfare is based on deception, so maybe you should start getting worried about the chinese immigrants, just in case they would view themselves at war with the US ?
It's a fact that Islam has made some Western Muslims traitorous and enemies in war. You can say they "misunderstood" the religion or whatever, but you will get Muslims that are openly traitorous and they appeal to their religion for that.

I didn't invent this. It's a fact.

If you can show something similar for the Chinese, (which I seriously doubt), that doesn't mean there isn't still an issue with Islam!

Quote:
Perhaps the most important point is that since all countries use deception in warfare, and certainly many non muslims view themselves at war with Islam, you could apply your own logic to yourself and your fellow disbelievers : you might cheat and lie to muslims in order to further your agenda.
Trying to point the finger at others does nothing to defend Islam here. That's a logical fallacy.

Last edited by TheProcess; 08-11-2015 at 05:20 AM..
 
Old 08-11-2015, 05:26 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,822 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am not aware of any Muslim nation that is currently at war with a Non_Muslim Nation.
From another Muslim here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Aggressive Jihad exists and can be halal! However...there is a lot of fiqh (jurisprudence) behind it and it requires a proper Islamic ruler and/or Caliph to lead it. In other words there can be no attack on foreign lands without an order from the commander in chief, very similar to how most militaries and societies work. No we will not apologize for this type of Jihad, and further this type of Jihad hasn't existed for nearly 100 years because we've been without a Caliph for nearly a century thanks in large part to the British and French colonialists.

So you would need a caliph for aggressive jihad.

Also, the Muslim world isn't that strong at the moment compared to others that could intervene.

Muslims nations just wouldn't be in a position to start a war against many other nations.

And has already been mentioned, a Muslim country isn't necessarily 100% properly Islamic anyway. Their rulers may have different interests than traditional Islam.
 
Old 08-11-2015, 05:33 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,822 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Virtually all major Islamic Nations are US allies.
Like Pakistan? Which is supposed to be a US ally? But where the US had to conduct a secret operation to kill Osama bin Laden because they didn't trust the Pakistanis?


Or like Saudi Arabia? Which is supposed to be a US ally?




Quoting:


The Global Spread of Wahhabi Islam: How Great a Threat? | Pew Research Center


The discussion was part of a joint project on religion and U.S. foreign policy undertaken by the Pew Forum and the Council that is designed to help policymakers and analysts better understand religion’s role in world affairs and the possible policy implications. Although the roundtable was off-the-record, the speakers agreed to make their remarks available online...



Just a couple of illustrations. In 1999, the first Nigerian state to introduce a radical form of shariah, at least in the modern period, was the state of Zamfara. When its governor, Ahmed Sani, announced the introduction of this law, he had a Saudi official standing next to him. When I interviewed the governor a couple of years later, he had hundreds of motorbikes out in the courtyard of the governor’s residence. They were going to sexually segregate the taxis, so they would need more motorbikes to transport men. I could find out from no official source where the money came from. All the journalists in town assured me it was Saudi money.

Again, in Nigeria in the year 2004, Sheikh Abdul-Aziz, the Saudi religious and cultural attaché in Nigeria, said he and his government had been monitoring the application of Islamic law in Nigeria and greeted their results “with delight.” I might add that this is a situation in which perhaps over 50,000 people have died in the conflicts around such laws. One finds similar situations in Indonesia and in other countries.

As a consequence of this, and at the urging of a number of American Muslims, we decided to look at what the Saudis might be funding or promoting in the United States and then also to look at the effects – not necessarily Saudi inspired, but very often Saudi inspired – of extreme versions of Islamic law around the world.

First, on the Freedom House report on Saudi literature in the United States. Beginning in December 2003, we collected over 200 different titles of literature either on bookshelves or in libraries in American mosques across the country. We looked at more titles than that. The 200 we selected had to have at least two of the following characteristics: they were either official publications of a Saudi government ministry; they were distributed by the Saudi embassy; they were comprised of religious pronouncements by those in Saudi State positions; they were representative of the Wahhabi ideology in Saudi Arabia; and/or disseminated through a mosque or center supported by the Saudis. Only if two of those things were true did we look further at the title. We translated portions of 54 of these works.

We use the term “hate” in the title of the report, and that is quite an appropriate term. Just some quotations – I won’t go into detail, you will be able to read it later – but the following is advice to the traveler in the United States who is told that they live in the abode of the infidel: “Be dissociated from the infidels; hate them for their religion; leave them; never rely on them for support; do not admire them; and always oppose them in every way according to Islamic law. Whoever helps unbelievers against Muslims, regardless of what type of support he lends to them, he is an unbeliever himself.”

One could add many more things, for example, the use of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a source on matters Jewish. But what is going on here is much more than a variety of hateful sentiments. The consistent pattern is this: the document I just quoted from has on the cover “Greetings from the Cultural Attaché of the Saudi Embassy” here in Washington, D.C. That is who distributed this material, or at least that is who has their stamp on it. The number of Muslims who may be affected by these views would be comparably small because that particular document was in Arabic, which of course most American Muslims don’t speak.

But it is an ideology that divides the world into the realm of Islam and the realm of the infidel, or the realm of war. So it trains the readers that they live behind enemy lines – they must be passing through, they cannot take abode here. You only have two reasons for being in the land of the infidel. One is to convert people to Islam. The second is to acquire either money or skill which you can bring back with you to help you and others engage in jihad, and in this context, it is quite clear that they mean that in a military sense, because they go on to talk about tanks and bullets, and things of this kind. One of the things you certainly cannot do is become an American citizen, because no Muslim can be ruled an infidel.

That is the particular ideology which is being taught. You must not have any good contacts, warm relations with anybody – not only with unbelievers, but with any Muslim who is not of the Wahhabi type; they are also often denounced as apostates. That is the major theme of concern in that report.
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