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Old 08-12-2015, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407

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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"To a "good person" (if such a thing exists)"

Such a thing does exist.

" threats of punishment for evil have no bearing."

Punishments for disbelief. You drop that context. Disbelief = evil according to Islam.

Consider:

Muslims are going to slaughter you for your evil disbelief....that has a huge bearing! Self-defense! I know people who have had to go into hiding from Muslims looking for them to slaughter them. I have had to try to remove all my personal information from the internet because of Muslims with death threats against me and my family. Muslims have even posted what personal information they could find about me!

Consider:

Someone is going to slaughter you if you do not drop all your beliefs in an instant! They have already slaughtered many in your village!! Does that have a bearing on you? Can you abandon beliefs you have held and start believing in these new beliefs of a god that wants you to submit or be slaughtered (or roast in hell while enduring endless torture?) What if I hold a gun to your head and tell you to believe in Scientology and not Islam, can you do it? Of course not. Yet Muslims and Muhammed/Allah think that this should happen to people who do not submit to Islam. THAT is evil.

Consider:

Someone happens to be very moral. They are against rape, torture, men having sex with children, irrationality, terrorism, etc. Yet they see all these things promoted in Islam. (I've given you proof after proof of this). Under Islam, They are told they must think a man who did all these things and more is a perfect example!! Do you really think that they will turn their back on their very moral ideology and submit to such evil? So, Muhammed/Allah now demands them to be slaughtered. For being good and not submitting to evil!

Consider:

When good men do nothing, evil wins. Good people have to fight against evil, and that means fighting against the evil in Islam. Part of being a good person is holding the moral value of JUSTICE. The bearing evil has on al good people is that the good must stand against evil. We have to take time and energy to teach the truth, to correct misinformation, to protect from terrorism and hate and having our children brainwashed and Shariah law instituted in our countries and clean up after riots and move when we live in areas that Muslims take over, etc, etc.

If I accept your assertion that Allah CREATED THE UNIVERSE and wrote the Quran, then I know that Allah is a great evil. That a CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE would incite such hate and violence and talk about how he is going to endlessly torture people in a horrible ways...WTF?? That this being encourages rape of captive women and a 53 year old man having sex with a 4th grader?!

"Because the Road from Dallas to Austin carries severe punishment for drunk drivers, does not mean the road causes aggressions towards non-Texans."

Your sentence needs to be corrected: "Because the Quran carries severe punishment and demands to kill disbelievers, does not mean the Quran causes aggressions towards disbelievers."

"The majority of Muslims do find that Islam promotes peace and fair treatment of all people. We do find the Qur'an to be a book of love and hope we do see it as a message of charity."

I do not believe that. I have spoken to over 2,500 Muslims. I have read the Quran and hadiths. I have studied history. I see what is happening around the world today. I see how many Islamic terrorist attacks take place daily. I have listened to both Imams and ex-Muslims.
I am also am Imam, although my wife and I are the only 2 that attend the Mosque, which happens to be a spare room in our house, During the summer months a tent in the back yard..

There is no special training for being an Imam, if they are actually functioning as an Imam. an actual Imam's duties are limited to maintaining the Mosque (Paying the bills) and Leading the 5 obligatory prayers, which most Muslims have memorized by the time they are adults.

In my 10 years as a Muslim I have lived in 5 different locations some with very large Muslim populations, such as Dallas, Austin. and Houston. I have not met one paid Imam nor heard a single Imam preach except the Friday Kutbah, which was always related to specific local issues and was nearly always related to showing respect to our non-Muslim friends, relatives and neighbors. I find that many US Muslims are either married to non-Muslims or have non-Muslim relatives. The Jewish, Sabeean or Christian wife of a Muslim is not required to convert to Islam.

There is no Hierarchy of clergy as there are no ordained clergy. the word of any Imam is worth the same as that of any other Muslim--it is a personal opinion. Most Mosques in the USA have no Ismam. World wide it is more common to say the obligatory prayers at work than in a Mosque.

Of the 2,500 Muslims you spoke to where most from one Nation or of one Madhab? We are very individualistic and it is virtually impossible to find shared opinions among a group unless they have formed a goal-oriented organization such as IS. Although it sounds like conspiracy theory, those of us that are against IS believe they are a group formed for the purpose of destroying Islam. to us that do not follow IS they are our enemy and they are the "Dar al-Harb"
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Old 08-12-2015, 06:01 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
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"Of the 2,500 Muslims you spoke to where most from one Nation or of one Madhab? "

No. They all had access to the internet and could do research. I did not find Muslims to be at all individualistic. They all said about the same things over and over. Almost like the Borg. Your responses are the same.

I also found that even when I proved that Muhammed sold women, let his men mass rape women, ordered people who spoke against him to be slaughtered, attacked unarmed villages, owned and traded and sold slaves, had sex with a child, demanded terrorism and hate....not ONE Muslim would say Muhammed was wrong to do any of these things. And they could not claim ignorance or that this was all false (although like you, they sure tried.) I really thought that at least a few would be able to say that these things were wrong, but Muhammed/Allah got a pass on every evil in the book. Islam had ingrained a total lack of moral judgement.

I was also surprised at the amount of dishonesty/evasion. Muslims would INSIST that Muhammed did none of these things and that the Quran was peaceful. I would show them dozens and dozens of verses of hate and incitement to violence and it was like I had showed them nothing. The amount of evasion was stunning. In the very beginning I was sure that their ignorance was genuine and that they would be shocked at what was in the Quran and hadiths. Not one was. Not even ONE said, "I never knew this! I am horrified and I will certainly research this!"

No amount of evil mattered to them.

The end result was either threats to slaughter me, personal attacks against me with nasty names, quitting the conversation or continuing to argue giving full support to Islam and Muhammed.

I did discover a lack of ability to think for themselves. I'd ask simple questions like "Why do we need morality?" or "What are your moral values and why do you hold them?" Or, "What is the fundamental alternative that morality addresses?" They could not answer. They could not even guess.
 
Old 08-12-2015, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Of the 2,500 Muslims you spoke to where most from one Nation or of one Madhab? "

No. They all had access to the internet and could do research. I did not find Muslims to be at all individualistic. They all said about the same things over and over. Almost like the Borg. Your responses are the same.

I also found that even when I proved that Muhammed sold women, let his men mass rape women, ordered people who spoke against him to be slaughtered, attacked unarmed villages, owned and traded and sold slaves, had sex with a child, demanded terrorism and hate....not ONE Muslim would say Muhammed was wrong to do any of these things. And they could not claim ignorance or that this was all false (although like you, they sure tried.) I really thought that at least a few would be able to say that these things were wrong, but Muhammed/Allah got a pass on every evil in the book. Islam had ingrained a total lack of moral judgement.

I was also surprised at the amount of dishonesty/evasion. Muslims would INSIST that Muhammed did none of these things and that the Quran was peaceful. I would show them dozens and dozens of verses of hate and incitement to violence and it was like I had showed them nothing. The amount of evasion was stunning. In the very beginning I was sure that their ignorance was genuine and that they would be shocked at what was in the Quran and hadiths. Not one was. Not even ONE said, "I never knew this! I am horrified and I will certainly research this!"

No amount of evil mattered to them.

The end result was either threats to slaughter me, personal attacks against me with nasty names, quitting the conversation or continuing to argue giving full support to Islam and Muhammed.

I did discover a lack of ability to think for themselves. I'd ask simple questions like "Why do we need morality?" or "What are your moral values and why do you hold them?" Or, "What is the fundamental alternative that morality addresses?" They could not answer. They could not even guess.
Is it dishonest evasion or simply not understanding your questions?

If a person thought Islam was as evil as you perceive it to be, very few people would embrace it. Almost certainly not 20% of the world's population.

Perhap's the questions should relate to the ayyats you view as evil/violent--one ayyat at a time and ask why most of us do not perceive them as violent.People orten point to ayyats they believe are evil and do not explain why they believe so. There is an obligation for the accuser to prove the ayyat is evil, not simply their opinion it is

If one does not know the entire story and the reasons one would be inclined to view them as violent. Especially some of the ayyats in Surahs 2, 5 and 9.when a person states an ayyat is evil, I see it as an indication they have no concept of Islam

Daniel Pipes is a strong believer that the Qur'an is evil He puts forth his arguements in a very persuasive manner in his website

THE 10 MOST DIABOLICAL EVIL TEACHINGS IN ALL HUMAN HISTORY :: Reader comments at Daniel Pipes

Using just his example of 9:5 what he considers the second most evil verse

Quote:
Most evil teaching # 2: Kill the infidels wherever you find them

Quran 9:5 (the infamous verse of the sword inciting mass murder):

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Verse 9:5 teaches Muslims to commit mass-murder. The kafirs must either convert to Islam, who would keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate (zakat), or be murdered. Command for unconditional slaying of humans, God's own creations, by other humans – when presented as a sacred teaching of the almighty Creator – becomes a most evil teaching. Needless to say, such teachings never came from God.
What I see is he is showing his lack of knowledge of the Qur'an or even how Islam is learned.

His disdain of the Jizyah (Dhimmi Tax) is not Zakat. No non-Muslim is obligated to pay Zakat, that is a Muslim obligation.
The Dhimmi tax (which no nation has used for quite a long time). Was a tax levied upon non-Muslim men in good health of military service age. This was inLieu of serving in the Military they could exempt them self from it by making them self available for military duty.

He also seems to believe the ayyat was a commandment for all Muslims for all time.

The ayyat is contained in the first discourse revealed of Surah 9 and consists of Ayyats to 1-37. It was delivered to the Muslims as to how the mushriks (Pagans of Mecca-Not the Christians or Jews) would be handled for their refusal to allow the Muslims to perform Hajj. Basically they were no longer welcome in Mecca and were given a year to evacuate Mecca. After a year (The complition of the 4 sacred months) they would be considered to be committing an act of war against the Muslims and treated as such. They heeded the warning and no blood was shed. this did not apply to the Mushrikun that honored the original treat and they were left alone as long as they lived by the treaty.
9:5 is not a command to harm anyone and only applied to a specific people at a specific place and time. The lesson of the Discourse is the importance of honoring treaties. not forcing people to convert.

Read the full discourse and perhaps you will understand it does not command violence

1. Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allah and His Messenger () to those of the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), with whom you made a treaty.

2. So travel freely (O Mushrikun - see V.2:105) for four months (as you will) throughout the land, but know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah, and Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.

3. And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (Mushrikun) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (O Muhammad ) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.

4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

6. And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.

7. How can there be a covenant with Allah and with His Messenger for the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) except those with whom you made a covenant near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah)? So long, as they are true to you, stand you true to them. Verily, Allah loves Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

8. How (can there be such a covenant with them) that when you are overpowered by them, they regard not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant with you? With (good words from) their mouths they please you, but their hearts are averse to you, and most of them are Fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).

9. They have purchased with the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah a little gain, and they hindered men from His Way; evil indeed is that which they used to do.

10. With regard to a believer, they respect not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who are the transgressors.

11. But if they repent, perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat, then they are your brethren in religion. (In this way) We explain the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for a people who know.

12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish - pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions).

13. Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

14. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people,

15. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

16. Do you think that you shall be left alone while Allah has not yet tested those among you who have striven hard and fought and have not taken Walijah [(Batanah - helpers, advisors and consultants from disbelievers, pagans, etc.) giving openly to them their secrets] besides Allah and His Messenger, and the believers. Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do.

17. It is not for the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), to maintain the Mosques of Allah (i.e. to pray and worship Allah therein, to look after their cleanliness and their building, etc.), while they witness against their ownselves of disbelief. The works of such are in vain and in Fire shall they abide.

18. The Mosques of Allah shall be maintained only by those who believe in Allah and the Last Day; perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat and fear none but Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

19. Do you consider the providing of drinking water to the pilgrims and the maintenance of Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) as equal to the worth of those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not equal before Allah. And Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers).

20. Those who believed (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic Monotheism) and emigrated and strove hard and fought in Allah's Cause with their wealth and their lives are far higher in degree with Allah. They are the successful.

21. Their Lord gives them glad tidings of a Mercy from Him, and that He is pleased (with them), and of Gardens (Paradise) for them wherein are everlasting delights.

22. They will dwell therein forever. Verily, with Allah is a great reward.

23. O you who believe! Take not for Auliya' (supporters and helpers) your fathers and your brothers if they prefer disbelief to Belief. And whoever of you does so, then he is one of the Zalimun (wrong-doers, etc.).

24. Say: If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your kindred, the wealth that you have gained, the commerce in which you fear a decline, and the dwellings in which you delight ... are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger, and striving hard and fighting in His Cause , then wait until Allah brings about His Decision (torment). And Allah guides not the people who are Al-Fasiqun (the rebellious, disobedient to Allah).

25. Truly Allah has given you victory on many battle fields, and on the Day of Hunain (battle) when you rejoiced at your great number but it availed you naught and the earth, vast as it is, was straitened for you, then you turned back in flight.

26. Then Allah did send down His Sakinah (calmness, tranquillity and reassurance, etc.) on the Messenger (Muhammad ), and on the believers, and sent down forces (angels) which you saw not, and punished the disbelievers. Such is the recompense of disbelievers.

27. Then after that Allah will accept the repentance of whom He will. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

28. O you who believe (in Allah's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad )! Verily, the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Muhammad ) are Najasun (impure) . So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year, and if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you if He will, out of His Bounty. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

30. And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

31. They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilah (God - Allah) La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) . Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."

32. They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).

33. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad ) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).

34. O you who believe! Verily, there are many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks who devour the wealth of mankind in falsehood, and hinder (them) from the Way of Allah (i.e. Allah's Religion of Islamic Monotheism). And those who hoard up gold and silver [Al-Kanz: the money, the Zakat of which has not been paid], and spend it not in the Way of Allah, -announce unto them a painful torment.

35. On the Day when that (Al-Kanz: money, gold and silver, etc., the Zakat of which has not been paid) will be heated in the Fire of Hell and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, (and it will be said unto them):-"This is the treasure which you hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what you used to hoard."

36. Verily, the number of months with Allah is twelve months (in a year), so was it ordained by Allah on the Day when He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are Sacred, (i.e. the 1st, the 7th, the 11th and the 12th months of the Islamic calendar). That is the right religion, so wrong not yourselves therein, and fight against the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) collectively , as they fight against you collectively. But know that Allah is with those who are Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

37. The postponing (of a Sacred Month) is indeed an addition to disbelief: thereby the disbelievers are led astray, for they make it lawful one year and forbid it another year in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by Allah, and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their deeds seems pleasing to them. And Allah guides not the people, who disbelieve.
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Old 08-12-2015, 08:58 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
Reputation: 435
"Is it dishonest evasion or simply not understanding your questions? "

These are two different issues. If you read what I posted I said that not answering my questions was "a lack of ability to think for themselves", not dishonesty. The dishonesty applies to when " Muslims would INSIST that Muhammed did none of these things and that the Quran was peaceful."

"If a person thought Islam was as evil as you perceive it to be, very few people would embrace it. Almost certainly not 20% of the world's population."

I thought that when I started researching Islam and talking to Muslims. It didn't turn out that way. I have said several times that it is a mystery to me how so many people can embrace such evil. But they do. As I said, not ONE Muslim would say that Muhammed was wrong to have people slaughtered for disagreeing with him, letting his men mass rape women, have sex with a 9 year old child, etc, etc. That astounds me.

"9:5 is not a command to harm anyone "

Well, yes it is:
"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush."

If you think this is not a command to harm anyone, then I don't know what.

I suggest you do some research:
TheReligionofPeace.com - The Myths of Muhammad
 
Old 08-13-2015, 02:48 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,822 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Is it dishonest evasion or simply not understanding your questions?

If a person thought Islam was as evil as you perceive it to be, very few people would embrace it. Almost certainly not 20% of the world's population.

Religious believers will find ways to justify things. Speak with some Christian calvinists for example. They think that their "god" predestines/determines that people sin, and then god punishes them for that sin. So all moral evil was really controlled and determined by the god they follow.

You can point out to them that this makes the god they follow more like a demon... You think they will accept this? No, as far as they are concerned, it's all "righteous" behaviour and god can do whatever he likes and be "good"...
 
Old 08-13-2015, 02:55 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,822 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I did not find Muslims to be at all individualistic.

My own (admittedly quite limited) experience, is that speaking with Muslims they always seem to be unable to be critical of the religion. It's just 'strange' speaking with them. With Christians there is more of a range of liberal to fundamentalist.
 
Old 08-13-2015, 03:11 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,822 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
What some Muslims believe is just that, what some Muslims believe.

They are doing so because of their own desires, not because they are Muslim. all people that are aggresors will find a reason to Justify their aggression. That does not mean what they misuse as their justification is the cause.
In this thread I don't really want to get into:

(1) The motivations going on in Muslim minds
(2) Whether aggression is supported by the "true Islam"

I will just repeat my point, that this is one plausible way in which Islam may be seen as allowing a wide permission to lie to unbelievers.
 
Old 08-13-2015, 06:08 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Is it dishonest evasion or simply not understanding your questions? "

These are two different issues. If you read what I posted I said that not answering my questions was "a lack of ability to think for themselves", not dishonesty. The dishonesty applies to when " Muslims would INSIST that Muhammed did none of these things and that the Quran was peaceful."

"If a person thought Islam was as evil as you perceive it to be, very few people would embrace it. Almost certainly not 20% of the world's population."

I thought that when I started researching Islam and talking to Muslims. It didn't turn out that way. I have said several times that it is a mystery to me how so many people can embrace such evil. But they do. As I said, not ONE Muslim would say that Muhammed was wrong to have people slaughtered for disagreeing with him, letting his men mass rape women, have sex with a 9 year old child, etc, etc. That astounds me.

"9:5 is not a command to harm anyone "

Well, yes it is:
"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush."

If you think this is not a command to harm anyone, then I don't know what.

I suggest you do some research:
TheReligionofPeace.com - The Myths of Muhammad
It was not a command, it was for a specific people at a specific time regarding a specific insident. the ibecause of the warning the consquensis were avoided, the Mushrikun heeded the warning and either abided by the treaties, or accepted Islam or left Mecca,
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Old 08-13-2015, 10:53 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
Reputation: 435
"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush."

This is a command from allah. A command to slaughter. And not in self defense.
 
Old 08-14-2015, 02:51 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,822 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

Daniel Pipes is a strong believer that the Qur'an is evil He puts forth his arguements in a very persuasive manner in his website

THE 10 MOST DIABOLICAL EVIL TEACHINGS IN ALL HUMAN HISTORY :: Reader comments at Daniel Pipes

Using just his example of 9:5 what he considers the second most evil verse


What I see is he is showing his lack of knowledge of the Qur'an or even how Islam is learned.
I don't think that really comes from Daniel Pipes by the way.
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