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Old 08-14-2015, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post

Moderator cut: Copyright violation removed.

Islamic Jizya: Fact and Fiction | Raymond Ibrahim
Jizyah when properly applied was a non-religious tax that applied to non- Muslims, who were exempt from the Zakat, the Muslim Religious Tax.

In most Countries the Jizyah was considerably less than the Zakat the Muslims paid.

When the concept of income and property tax developed the Jizyah became obsolete and all residents paid the same national, state and local taxes. The last Islamic nation to collect Jizyah stopped doing so over 100 years ago. Simple fact of economics the income and property taxes collected equally from all people, brings in more money.

Non-Muslims living in Muslim nations are subject to military duty in Nations that do not have the Jizyah.

Quite a few Christians living in Islamic Nations are now serving in the Military. Looking just at Pakistan

Quote:
Maj. Gen. Julian Peter:
Julian Peter, from Rawalpindi, participated in the wars of 1965 and 1971. He was titled to be the first Christian General of Pakistan Army. He was the Division Commander at Okara. He has also served as Director General Logistics. He retired in 2004.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/non-m...tan-ahmad-riaz

Today without Jizyah you will find non-Muslims serving in the military of most Muslim nations.
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Last edited by mensaguy; 08-17-2015 at 12:44 PM.. Reason: Removing copyright violation

 
Old 08-14-2015, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Jizyah when properly applied was a non-religious tax that applied to non- Muslims, who were exempt from the Zakat, the Muslim Religious Tax.

In most Countries the Jizyah was considerably less than the Zakat the Muslims paid.
I wonder where you get the above idea from the Quran? Show me the supporting verses in the Quran.
It is obvious non-Muslims cannot pay the Zakat which is a pillar of being a Muslim. Thus it is not a question of non-Muslims being exempted from paying the Zakat.

The concept of Jizya [aljizyata] as stated in 9:29 of the Quran conveyed the most accurate meaning of 'aljizyata' [Jizya].

The concept of 'Jizya' come with its imperative association that non-Muslims must pay a tax in the following state, i.e.
state of being humbled, in state of subjection, with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued, state of complete abasement, degrade, belittled, feel subdued, & made subservient.

This is because the Muslims are given and brainwashed into a 'false' sense of superiority, dominance and arrogance from many related verses in the Quran.

What is termed Jizya without the original essence from the Quran are merely pseudo practices that has strayed as in those you mentioned above. No modern Islamic nations would dare to expect non-Muslims to pay tax in the original form of Jizya.

However, the modern true Muslims strive to impose the pristine and pure form of Jizya onto the non-Muslims if need be, as in the case of ISIS or in one's personal mind as re Anjem Choudry. The fact is ISIS is so rich with oil, ransom, etc. money that they prefer to kill all non-Muslims instead of milking them.

Towards the end of the Quran [chronologically] there is less emphasis on the Jizya [not mentioned many times in the Quran] because by then Muhammad and his followers were flushed with wealth from the loots of raids and wars with the non-Muslims then.
 
Old 08-15-2015, 03:34 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Jizyah when properly applied was a non-religious tax that applied to non- Muslims, who were exempt from the Zakat, the Muslim Religious Tax.

In most Countries the Jizyah was considerably less than the Zakat the Muslims paid.

When the concept of income and property tax developed the Jizyah became obsolete and all residents paid the same national, state and local taxes. The last Islamic nation to collect Jizyah stopped doing so over 100 years ago. Simple fact of economics the income and property taxes collected equally from all people, brings in more money.

Non-Muslims living in Muslim nations are subject to military duty in Nations that do not have the Jizyah.

I think you are putting an apologist spin on it and covering up the oppression that really happened. Anyway, I believe there is a hadith which says that jizya is supposed to be forever or until there are only Muslims anyway.
 
Old 08-15-2015, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I wonder where you get the above idea from the Quran? Show me the supporting verses in the Quran.
It is obvious non-Muslims cannot pay the Zakat which is a pillar of being a Muslim. Thus it is not a question of non-Muslims being exempted from paying the Zakat.

The concept of Jizya [aljizyata] as stated in 9:29 of the Quran conveyed the most accurate meaning of 'aljizyata' [Jizya].

The concept of 'Jizya' come with its imperative association that non-Muslims must pay a tax in the following state, i.e.
state of being humbled, in state of subjection, with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued, state of complete abasement, degrade, belittled, feel subdued, & made subservient.

This is because the Muslims are given and brainwashed into a 'false' sense of superiority, dominance and arrogance from many related verses in the Quran.

What is termed Jizya without the original essence from the Quran are merely pseudo practices that has strayed as in those you mentioned above. No modern Islamic nations would dare to expect non-Muslims to pay tax in the original form of Jizya.

However, the modern true Muslims strive to impose the pristine and pure form of Jizya onto the non-Muslims if need be, as in the case of ISIS or in one's personal mind as re Anjem Choudry. The fact is ISIS is so rich with oil, ransom, etc. money that they prefer to kill all non-Muslims instead of milking them.

Towards the end of the Quran [chronologically] there is less emphasis on the Jizya [not mentioned many times in the Quran] because by then Muhammad and his followers were flushed with wealth from the loots of raids and wars with the non-Muslims then.
9;29 is actually the only place in the Qur'an Jizyah is mentioned.

The Qur'an does not explain what it is or how it is calculated. As the Qur'an does not contain any new revelations that were not given in the past, it is apparant the people on the Arabian peninsula knew what it was.

As I have stated before the Qur'an tells why, it does not tell how. That comes fromed the Ahadith, Sira and Sunnah and summed up in the Madhabs.

to get some insight as to how it was practiced one needs to study theHadith and Madhabs. in the Ahadith

My own findings are I have been unable to find any uniform rules or any specific laws that ever developed regarding jizyah. It was never workable except in the Small city states in which a Monarch and his family was sole owner of all property.

From what I have found in the Tafsir of several Scholars of Islamic Jurisprudence it was justified by Christianity in Mark 12:17 King James Bible
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.


If a Nation ever collected Jizah if was in accordance with any treaty that existed between the Muslim and non-Muslims. Except for the Ottoman Empire it does not seem to have been used much and pretty much became impossible to apply after the evolution of city states to Nations.
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Old 08-15-2015, 10:41 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
Reputation: 435
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

Again we have incitement to violence. And this whole thing about fighting until people 'give willingly' just does not make sense! When you are fighting people that does not make them 'willing'. The whole business of fighting is to force people who are NOT willing to do something!

And again we have this CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE enjoying violence! If he creates the universe (OMG!!) then why create disbelievers and disbelievers and demand that they fight and slaughter each other ... why not create all believers, which this allah said he could easily do!? THAT would make everyone willing and submissive and peaceful. But instead we have this thirst for violence and hate and painful punishment by this supernatural being that CREATED THE UNIVERSE!!

In fact, the word 'punishment' is in the Quran 563 times!! And almost every mention is of terrible punishment by allah against disbelievers! Why in the world does this CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE love violence and hate and punishment so darn much?

And this whole idea of jizyah is just not right. I have never, ever wanted money that someone else earned...money that is taken from them by initiation of force like this! Why do Muslims want to take by fighting what they have not earned? Fighting to take money is not moral.

So what about today?

The general plan of Hamas also includes the imposition of a special tax, called al-jeziya, upon all of the non-Muslim residents in the Palestinian territories. This tax revives the one applied through all of Islamic history to the dhimmi, the second-class Jewish and Christian citizens.
The Mayor of Bethlehem is Christian, but It’s Hamas That’s in Charge
Sandro Magister, Chiesa News, December 29, 2005

In Denmark, Muslims make up 5% of the population but receive 40% of social-welfare outlays. Their preachers have told them, Mr. Bawer reports, that only a fool would not take maximum advantage of the bounty that Western Europe offers and that it is perfectly legitimate to cheat and lie. The benefits they receive are a kind of jizya, the tribute that infidels in Muslim-occupied countries have to pay to preserve their lives. (The subsidized-radical situation in Britain and Germany is not much different: The four suicide bombers in London last year had raked in close to a million dollars in social benefits before going on their murderous mission.)
A Dire Continental Drift: While Europe Slept by Bruce Bave
Walter Laqueur, Wall Street Journal, February 18, 2006

Around 69 families, approximately 500 Sikhs, were residing in Feroz Khail area of the agency. Most of them earned their living from cultivating crops and a few others from small makeshifts at a market, which were barely sufficient to make both ends meet.
Kalyan himself was picked up by militants and offered three options: To embrace Islam, to become part of their jihad or to pay a sum of Rs500 million.
“I could not even consider the first two options. I was released when residents intervened and the Sikh community paid Rs6.5 million as Jizya (protection money for non-Muslims),” Kalyan said.
Residents left the area within half an hour of the warning, leaving most of their valuables behind.
Militancy: When hundreds of Sikhs lost their homes in Orakzai
Umer Farooq, The Express Tribune, October 5, 2012

In Essa Nagri Christians are harassed by criminal gangs and Islamic terrorist groups of ethnic Pashtuns: armed to the teeth, the militants enter the area to collect the "Jizya" (the tax imposed, according to the sharia, on the non-Muslim minorities), and extort money from the Christian merchants. MASS activists have been denouncing for a long time continuous robberies, violence and abuses committed under the cover of some Police officials. Militants raid houses, steal and abuse women and children for fun.
ASIA/PAKISTAN - Attack in the Christian area: one victim and two injured in Karachi
Agenzia Fides, August 31, 2012

This past year there have been several disturbing incidents in the neighborhood of outer Nørrebro. In October, a refugee from Africa had his door kicked in several times and was threatened by a group of youths who accused him of being both black and Christian.
He was given a deadline of less than a week to pay them 10,000 kroner (1,800 USD) if he wanted to live in the area. Police told him that they could no longer guarantee his safety in Mjølnerparken [Muslim ghetto in Copenhagen, Denmark]. When Lejerbo (the company renting out apartments in the area) found him, he was crying and had slept on the street.
On the other side of the fence
Nicolai Sennels (Translator), Weekendavisen (Danish daily, not online), March 1, 2012

The Taliban in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) have issued an ultimatum against local Hindus and Sikhs: either you pay “jizya”, an Islamic poll tax for religious minorities that is akin to protection money, or you leave. Many (more than 400)Hindu and Sikh families have already left for Peshawar and neighbouring provinces.
Threats against Sikhs and Hindus are but the latest in a series of warnings against religious minorities in the NWFP, including Christians who have had to pay jizya and submit to Sharia.

“We were living under fear: fear of the Taliban, fear of Lashkar-e-Islam and fear of other armed groups,” a Sikh man told the Daily Times
Hindus and Sikhs threatened by the Taliban and Sharia
Fareed Khan, Asia News, July 28, 2009

etc, etc, etc......
 
Old 08-15-2015, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

Again we have incitement to violence. And this whole thing about fighting until people 'give willingly' just does not make sense! When you are fighting people that does not make them 'willing'. The whole business of fighting is to force people who are NOT willing to do something!

And again we have this CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE enjoying violence! If he creates the universe (OMG!!) then why create disbelievers and disbelievers and demand that they fight and slaughter each other ... why not create all believers, which this allah said he could easily do!? THAT would make everyone willing and submissive and peaceful. But instead we have this thirst for violence and hate and painful punishment by this supernatural being that CREATED THE UNIVERSE!!

In fact, the word 'punishment' is in the Quran 563 times!! And almost every mention is of terrible punishment by allah against disbelievers! Why in the world does this CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE love violence and hate and punishment so darn much?

And this whole idea of jizyah is just not right. I have never, ever wanted money that someone else earned...money that is taken from them by initiation of force like this! Why do Muslims want to take by fighting what they have not earned? Fighting to take money is not moral.

So what about today?

The general plan of Hamas also includes the imposition of a special tax, called al-jeziya, upon all of the non-Muslim residents in the Palestinian territories. This tax revives the one applied through all of Islamic history to the dhimmi, the second-class Jewish and Christian citizens.
The Mayor of Bethlehem is Christian, but It’s Hamas That’s in Charge
Sandro Magister, Chiesa News, December 29, 2005

In Denmark, Muslims make up 5% of the population but receive 40% of social-welfare outlays. Their preachers have told them, Mr. Bawer reports, that only a fool would not take maximum advantage of the bounty that Western Europe offers and that it is perfectly legitimate to cheat and lie. The benefits they receive are a kind of jizya, the tribute that infidels in Muslim-occupied countries have to pay to preserve their lives. (The subsidized-radical situation in Britain and Germany is not much different: The four suicide bombers in London last year had raked in close to a million dollars in social benefits before going on their murderous mission.)
A Dire Continental Drift: While Europe Slept by Bruce Bave
Walter Laqueur, Wall Street Journal, February 18, 2006

Around 69 families, approximately 500 Sikhs, were residing in Feroz Khail area of the agency. Most of them earned their living from cultivating crops and a few others from small makeshifts at a market, which were barely sufficient to make both ends meet.
Kalyan himself was picked up by militants and offered three options: To embrace Islam, to become part of their jihad or to pay a sum of Rs500 million.
“I could not even consider the first two options. I was released when residents intervened and the Sikh community paid Rs6.5 million as Jizya (protection money for non-Muslims),” Kalyan said.
Residents left the area within half an hour of the warning, leaving most of their valuables behind.
Militancy: When hundreds of Sikhs lost their homes in Orakzai
Umer Farooq, The Express Tribune, October 5, 2012

In Essa Nagri Christians are harassed by criminal gangs and Islamic terrorist groups of ethnic Pashtuns: armed to the teeth, the militants enter the area to collect the "Jizya" (the tax imposed, according to the sharia, on the non-Muslim minorities), and extort money from the Christian merchants. MASS activists have been denouncing for a long time continuous robberies, violence and abuses committed under the cover of some Police officials. Militants raid houses, steal and abuse women and children for fun.
ASIA/PAKISTAN - Attack in the Christian area: one victim and two injured in Karachi
Agenzia Fides, August 31, 2012

This past year there have been several disturbing incidents in the neighborhood of outer Nørrebro. In October, a refugee from Africa had his door kicked in several times and was threatened by a group of youths who accused him of being both black and Christian.
He was given a deadline of less than a week to pay them 10,000 kroner (1,800 USD) if he wanted to live in the area. Police told him that they could no longer guarantee his safety in Mjølnerparken [Muslim ghetto in Copenhagen, Denmark]. When Lejerbo (the company renting out apartments in the area) found him, he was crying and had slept on the street.
On the other side of the fence
Nicolai Sennels (Translator), Weekendavisen (Danish daily, not online), March 1, 2012

The Taliban in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) have issued an ultimatum against local Hindus and Sikhs: either you pay “jizya”, an Islamic poll tax for religious minorities that is akin to protection money, or you leave. Many (more than 400)Hindu and Sikh families have already left for Peshawar and neighbouring provinces.
Threats against Sikhs and Hindus are but the latest in a series of warnings against religious minorities in the NWFP, including Christians who have had to pay jizya and submit to Sharia.

“We were living under fear: fear of the Taliban, fear of Lashkar-e-Islam and fear of other armed groups,” a Sikh man told the Daily Times
Hindus and Sikhs threatened by the Taliban and Sharia
Fareed Khan, Asia News, July 28, 2009

etc, etc, etc......
If you live in a nation you pay taxes. In the past when the Muslim Nations were City-states the only tax was the Zakat. However since Zakat is a Muslim piller of Faith non-Muslims were not bound by it. A seperate not religious tax was imposed instead. This uner Shariah was only applicable to able body men of military age. Clergy of any faith were exempt. in nearly ever case the Jizyah was lower than the Zakat that Muslims paid and unlike the Zakat did not apply to women and children. The actual amount to be paid was negotiated by treaty between the Muslim owners of the city and the non-Muslims that wanted to live in it. Keep in mind also that each city on the Arabian peninsula was a separate Nation.
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Old 08-15-2015, 01:50 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
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"If you live in a nation you pay taxes."

I don't agree with that either but that is a political issue. What we are talking about here is very different. It is a 'tax' based on humiliation and hate and violence and a different belief. That is totally immoral.
 
Old 08-15-2015, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"If you live in a nation you pay taxes."

I don't agree with that either but that is a political issue. What we are talking about here is very different. It is a 'tax' based on humiliation and hate and violence and a different belief. That is totally immoral.
It is actually a moot point as once City States ceased to exist, the Jaziyah was impossible to apply. It also was insufficient for running a Nation. Standard across the boar secular taxation became the norm.

Also without the Jaziyah it became possible to conscribe non-Muslim residents for militery duty as the larger Muslim nations now do.

Yes, the Jaziyah was demeaning to non-Muslims as their money was not a gift to Allaah(swt) as the Zakat was.for Muslims.
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Old 08-15-2015, 04:15 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
Reputation: 435
"It is actually a moot point "

Sadly, it is not. No matter how Muslims are applying jizyah today, the fact remains that Allah, CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, incited violence (which is happening today), to collect jizyah. You can't eat your cake and have it, too. Either the Quran is the direct word form god, or the Quran has moot points. Which would make it NOT the direct word from god.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

Allah doesn't say that only governments can fight to take the money from non-Muslims.

"Yes, the Jaziyah was demeaning to non-Muslims as their money was not a gift to Allaah(swt) as the Zakat was.for Muslims."

Isn't part of it used for terrorism?
 
Old 08-15-2015, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"It is actually a moot point "

Sadly, it is not. No matter how Muslims are applying jizyah today, the fact remains that Allah, CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, incited violence (which is happening today), to collect jizyah. You can't eat your cake and have it, too. Either the Quran is the direct word form god, or the Quran has moot points. Which would make it NOT the direct word from god.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

Allah doesn't say that only governments can fight to take the money from non-Muslims.

"Yes, the Jaziyah was demeaning to non-Muslims as their money was not a gift to Allaah(swt) as the Zakat was.for Muslims."

Isn't part of it used for terrorism?
As no Islamic nation is collecting Jizyah, I believe all of it collected is going for terrorism as the only ones collecting it are Terrorist organizations.
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