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Old 08-15-2015, 06:00 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 755,592 times
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" I believe all of it collected is going for terrorism as the only ones collecting it are Terrorist organizations."

Under the instructions of allah, who must be very proud of them.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled." - Allah

 
Old 08-15-2015, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,320,105 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
" I believe all of it collected is going for terrorism as the only ones collecting it are Terrorist organizations."

Under the instructions of allah, who must be very proud of them.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled." - Allah
For the umpteenth time.

9:29 was part of the warning message to the Mushrikun of Mecca. They had violated their treaty by preventing the Muslims to do Hajj and as a result were given a year to do one of 3 choice

1. Leave Mecca
2. accept the terms of the treaty
3. Convert to Islam

If they failed to comply it would be considered an act of war and they would be considered enemy combatants/illegal entrants/etc

This was a specific warning for a specific people at a specific location for a specific purpose. Not a command for Muslims to hunt them down. The Mushrikun chose to honor the warning and no blood was shed

9:26 (Picktall) Then Allah sent His peace of reassurance down upon His messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts ye could not see, and punished those who disbelieved. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

9:27 (Picktall) Then afterward Allah will relent toward whom He will; for Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:28 (Picktall) O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

9:29 (Picktall) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

In this portion the Muslims have been urged to fight in the Way of Allah with the mushrik Arabs, the Jews and the Christians, who were duly warned of the consequences of their mischievous and inimical behaviour. 13 - 37

This is in relation to the earlier discourse which was given to the Mushrikun in ayyats 1-12
This portion deals with the sanctity of treaties and lays down principles, rules and regulations which must be kept in view before breaking them, in case the other party does not observe them sincerely. 1 - 12

Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #9

Except the discourse in 13-37 was given to the Muslims of Mecca to let them know the Mushrikun have been warned and that if they are found withing the city after the year has passed it would be an act of war by the Mushrikun.
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Old 08-15-2015, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,701 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
For the umpteenth time.

9:29 was part of the warning message to the Mushrikun of Mecca. They had violated their treaty by preventing the Muslims to do Hajj and as a result were given a year to do one of 3 choice

1. Leave Mecca
2. accept the terms of the treaty
3. Convert to Islam

If they failed to comply it would be considered an act of war and they would be considered enemy combatants/illegal entrants/etc

This was a specific warning for a specific people at a specific location for a specific purpose. Not a command for Muslims to hunt them down. The Mushrikun chose to honor the warning and no blood was shed
What umpteenth time?

So is the umpteenth time re the following;

The core of Islam is the Quran.
The main purpose of the various stories, similitude, parables in the Quran, are to convey the various principles of Islam.
In this case, 9:26-28 is the story to convey the principle within 9:29 which in general is;
Principle F: Fight and slay infidels or subject them to Jizya if the religion is threatened or wronged so that the religion remained superior and dominant.

It is not only the 9:26-28 story that support the above 'Principle F' but this principle is supported by many other stories and verses.
This principle F is also in line in a certain context within the whole of the Quran. There are many other principles A, B, C, ..Z beside F.

The problem is the term 'wronged' [mischief, corruption, and the likes] is too loose and thus it is left to Muslims to interpret what is 'wronged' that is threatening their religion. Due to the existential dilemma and its natural propensity to induce high sensitiveness within the person, Muslims often construe what they don't feel good as something that is wronged and thus they strike. Note example of cartoons, or someone is killed by a mob when wrongfully accused of burning the Quran, etc.

In addition, what is construed as a threat to the religion is the fact that non-Muslims religions, politics, etc. exist. This is well reflected in the various verses in the Quran.

What is most dangerous is when ONLY SOME Muslims are attuned and have very strong proclivities in adopting such a 'Principle F' which exist in the Quran.

This is the reality that you cannot deny, which you, other Muslims and humanity have to face and must deal with.

One is not doing justice to oneself and humanity by deflecting and denying it and worst when they try execute a 'Socrates' on others who voice this reality.
 
Old 08-16-2015, 01:42 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,320,105 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What umpteenth time?

So is the umpteenth time re the following;

The core of Islam is the Quran.
The main purpose of the various stories, similitude, parables in the Quran, are to convey the various principles of Islam.
In this case, 9:26-28 is the story to convey the principle within 9:29 which in general is;
Principle F: Fight and slay infidels or subject them to Jizya if the religion is threatened or wronged so that the religion remained superior and dominant.

It is not only the 9:26-28 story that support the above 'Principle F' but this principle is supported by many other stories and verses.
This principle F is also in line in a certain context within the whole of the Quran. There are many other principles A, B, C, ..Z beside F.

The problem is the term 'wronged' [mischief, corruption, and the likes] is too loose and thus it is left to Muslims to interpret what is 'wronged' that is threatening their religion. Due to the existential dilemma and its natural propensity to induce high sensitiveness within the person, Muslims often construe what they don't feel good as something that is wronged and thus they strike. Note example of cartoons, or someone is killed by a mob when wrongfully accused of burning the Quran, etc.

In addition, what is construed as a threat to the religion is the fact that non-Muslims religions, politics, etc. exist. This is well reflected in the various verses in the Quran.

What is most dangerous is when ONLY SOME Muslims are attuned and have very strong proclivities in adopting such a 'Principle F' which exist in the Quran.

This is the reality that you cannot deny, which you, other Muslims and humanity have to face and must deal with.

One is not doing justice to oneself and humanity by deflecting and denying it and worst when they try execute a 'Socrates' on others who voice this reality.
I think I have shown more than once, your Principle F is not supported in Islam nor even in the Qur'an.

While you have an interesting Hypothesis, it seems to be based upon the assumptions that The Verses are commands and the Qur'an is the stand alone source for learning Islam.

Even the Qur'an tells us to follow all the Prophets and obey that which came before.

We are also told to learn Islam from Muhammad(saws) not the Qur'an.

Going back to 9:29 the full discourse that is revealed in is ayyats 1-37

The first discourse (vv. 1-37), was revealed in Zil-Qa'adah A. H. 9 or thereabout. As the importance of the subject of the discourse required its declaration on the occasion of Haj the Holy Prophet despatched Hadrat Ali to follow Hadrat Abu Bakr, who had already left for Makkah as leader of the Pilgrims to the Ka'abah. He instructed Hadrat Ali to deliver the discourse before the representatives of the different clans of Arabia so as to inform them of the new policy towards the mushriks.

Which is in 2 parts,

This portion deals with the sanctity of treaties and lays down principles, rules and regulations which must be kept in view before breaking them, in case the other party does not observe them sincerely. 1 - 12
In this portion the Muslims have been urged to fight in the Way of Allah with the mushrik Arabs, the Jews and the Christians, who were duly warned of the consequences of their mischievous and inimical behaviour. 13 -37


SOURCE



to understand that 9:29 is not a command but was part of a warning one should read 1-37 or at least 13-37
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Old 08-16-2015, 02:09 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,701 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think I have shown more than once, your Principle F is not supported in Islam nor even in the Qur'an.

While you have an interesting Hypothesis, it seems to be based upon the assumptions that The Verses are commands and the Qur'an is the stand alone source for learning Islam.
Note my forte is philosophy and spirituality of humanity and I express the Hypothesis from those principles and not merely from the Quran which are crude and kindergarten stuffs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Even the Qur'an tells us to follow all the Prophets and obey that which came before.
That is right. Note this command to 'fight and slay' non-Muslims and all Muslims are expected to obey as that which came before!
9:111. Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers [Muslims] their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs they [Muslims] shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him [Muslim] in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye [Muslims] have made, for that is the supreme triumph.
You seem to have missed out or misunderstood what is written in the Quran.
Of course the Quran [Muhammad] tell [told] a lie above because the Gospel did not advocate killing infidels but rather 'love your enemies' as an overriding principle.
Note there are many more verses in the Quran which support the above, i.e. Fight and Slain the Non-Muslims.

The 'Fight and Slay' principle is not an issue with 80% of Muslims but the fact that such principle exists in the Quran is critical because there are a potential of 20% Muslims [= 300 Muslims ] around the world who will buy into this principle and execute it in reality. This is already a proven reality!


Quote:
We are also told to learn Islam from Muhammad(saws) not the Qur'an.
This is the problem with the Quran and Islam. This is why true Muslims made an attempt to imitate what Muhammad did in his life time and put their faith in the Hadiths and Sira. This is the result of the terrible evils and violence that SOME Muslims has committed since Islam came into being.

Theoretically, a believer should rely on the principles within holy texts not the teachings [Forms] of the prophet nor teacher. Note in contrast that 'Kill the Buddha .. ' Koan. Unfortunately the principles in the Quran are shallow.



Quote:
Going back to 9:29 the full discourse that is revealed in is ayyats 1-37

The first discourse (vv. 1-37), was revealed in Zil-Qa'adah A. H. 9 or thereabout. As the importance of the subject of the discourse required its declaration on the occasion of Haj the Holy Prophet despatched Hadrat Ali to follow Hadrat Abu Bakr, who had already left for Makkah as leader of the Pilgrims to the Ka'abah. He instructed Hadrat Ali to deliver the discourse before the representatives of the different clans of Arabia so as to inform them of the new policy towards the mushriks.

Which is in 2 parts,

This portion deals with the sanctity of treaties and lays down principles, rules and regulations which must be kept in view before breaking them, in case the other party does not observe them sincerely. 1 - 12
In this portion the Muslims have been urged to fight in the Way of Allah with the mushrik Arabs, the Jews and the Christians, who were duly warned of the consequences of their mischievous and inimical behaviour. 13 -37


SOURCE
to understand that 9:29 is not a command but was part of a warning one should read 1-37 or at least 13-37
I reiterate, the stories in the Quran are meant to support the various principles within that represent the various pillars [beside the 5 mentioned] of Islam.
To be a true Muslims one must abide to these principles.
This is the common approach in the teachings of Islamic doctrines, jurisprudences, etc.
 
Old 08-16-2015, 06:42 AM
 
646 posts, read 347,195 times
Reputation: 495
Wow, my thread has become rather popular among some posters.

I will read all that was posted.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 12:46 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,225 posts, read 11,031,967 times
Reputation: 7448
When you come into the Islam forum and start quoting an author who is selling a book entitled "Crucified Again: Exposing Islam's New War on Christians" there is no room to claim that you aren't here to cause trouble.
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