U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 07-26-2015, 03:19 AM
 
646 posts, read 346,335 times
Reputation: 495

Advertisements

I apologize because I never seem to have any "good" questions about Islam. I feel kind of bad. LOL.

Anyhow, what is it with this Taqiya? I have read about it and one aspect of it is that it can allegedly be used to make Islam stronger meaning that Muslims can pretend to be peaceful and attend interfaith services etc. and say that they accept other beliefs but in reality they are lying and will turn around the second they have enough/more influence.

I mean, I feel bad but is it true? If so, how can I ever trust a devout Muslim at an interfaith event who tells me this? He might be sincere but the concept would enable him to change his opinion at any time.

I am not really speaking about Muslims who don't practice. I have friends like that and I am not worried about them.Yet, I cannot really ask them about this concept either. I doubt they'd even know about it.

Can anybody clarify?

 
Old 07-26-2015, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliksder View Post
I apologize because I never seem to have any "good" questions about Islam. I feel kind of bad. LOL.

Anyhow, what is it with this Taqiya? I have read about it and one aspect of it is that it can allegedly be used to make Islam stronger meaning that Muslims can pretend to be peaceful and attend interfaith services etc. and say that they accept other beliefs but in reality they are lying and will turn around the second they have enough/more influence.

I mean, I feel bad but is it true? If so, how can I ever trust a devout Muslim at an interfaith event who tells me this? He might be sincere but the concept would enable him to change his opinion at any time.

I am not really speaking about Muslims who don't practice. I have friends like that and I am not worried about them.Yet, I cannot really ask them about this concept either. I doubt they'd even know about it.

Can anybody clarify?
It seems to be a favorite topic of the hate sites.

The word taqiyyah is not found in the Qur'an or the Ahadith..

However in the early history of the Sunni/Shi'ite us sunni did commit many atrocities against the Shi'ite. as a result a Shi'ite scholar issued a fatwah stating that it was permissable for a Shi'a to claim he was Sunni in order to save his life.

The hate mongers have stretched this to mean All Muslims can lie and pretend to be peaceful in order to conquer non-Muslims.

Quote:
The Seventeenth Greater Sin: Lying

Lying is another sin which is classified among the Greater sins. The famous scholar, Shaykh Ansari (r.a.) writes in his book, Makasib al-Muharrama:

“Common sense suggests lying is Harām, all the revealed religions also say so; particularly Islam. The Qur’an is explicit in this regard. The corpus of hadith (opinion of the majority of the jurists) verifies this tenet and reason also sustains this assertion.”

Lying is listed with the greater sins in the narration of Fazl Ibn Shazān from Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.).
Lying is one of the greatest sins

A tradition from the Holy Prophet (S) declares,

“Beware I inform you regarding the greatest of the mortal sins: Associating anything with Allah, disobeying parents and lying!”1

A similar tradition has been quoted from Imam Hasan al-Askari (a.s.) also,

“All the evils have been locked in a room and its key is lying.”2
Angels curse the liars

The Prophet of Islam in another tradition is quoted to have said,

“When a believer utters a lie without a valid excuse, he is cursed by seventy thousand angels. Such a stench emanates from his heart that it reaches the sky and because of this single lie Allah writes for him a sin equivalent to that of committing seventy fornications. Such fornications that the least of which is fornication with ones mother.”3

Undoubtedly, lying is the worst of sins. It is obvious that the evils of lying are more dreadful than those of adultery. Some false words lead to war between two tribes or two sections of the society. Some lies blight the honour of thousands of people or endanger their lives, or lead to economic disasters.

One kind of falsehood is that which is attributed to Allah (S.w.T.), the Holy Prophet (S) or the Holy Imams (a.s.). Understandably this is the worst kind of falsehood. Often due to lying, innocent people are sent to the gallows and their families destroyed. It is for this very reason that the traditions state:

“Lying is an evil, greater than drinking wine.”
Qur’anic verses denounce lying

Allah the Almighty says in Surah an-Nahl, verse 105:

“Only they forge the lie who do not believe in Allah’s communications, and these are the liars.”

And in Surah az-Zumar it is mentioned:

“Surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful.” (Surah az-Zumar 39:3)

It can be understood from the verses of the Qur’an that a liar calls for divine curse and invites the anger of Allah (S.w.T.).

For example:

“... and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.” (Surah Āli- Imrān 3:61)

And also:

“... the curse of Allah be on him if he is one of the liars.” (Surah an-Nūr 24:8)

A large number of Qur’anic verses and traditions condemn the sin of lying and describe its evil consequences. The late Haji Nūri has collected these verses and traditions and classified them into forty points for easy recalling and reference. We shall quote them for the benefit of our reader

The Seventeenth Greater Sin: Lying | Greater Sins Volume 2 | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org

Now I will wait for the people that are going to holler

It is permissable for a Muslim to lie
1. to his wife to avoid ill feelings
2. to preserve peace in the community
3. to save your life or the life of another.
4. In time of war to confuse the enemy

I am certain at least one person will bring those up. I will reply when they do.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 07-26-2015, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOps. I goofed. I did not notice the link I quoted from is a shi'ite site.

While I still think it is a good explanation us Sunni do differ with some of the things far down in the list.

Primarily where there are times a lie is not a lie.

I believe a lie is always a lie and should be avoided. however there are conditions under which a lie might be the lesser of 2 evils, but will still be a sin as we should have avoided getting our self into such a situation.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 07-26-2015, 12:22 PM
 
646 posts, read 346,335 times
Reputation: 495
Thank you.

I did not get this from a hate website but from a) some book and later b) a video where an imam preached and said this stuff himself. Just sayin'. No, it was not a translation; he said it in a language I speak perfectly.

I take it that some Muslims use this but really they are doing the wrong thing by using it for their screwed up agenda. I guess that is something.
 
Old 07-26-2015, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliksder View Post
Thank you.

I did not get this from a hate website but from a) some book and later b) a video where an imam preached and said this stuff himself. Just sayin'. No, it was not a translation; he said it in a language I speak perfectly.

I take it that some Muslims use this but really they are doing the wrong thing by using it for their screwed up agenda. I guess that is something.
Keep in mind we have no ordained clergy. Many Imams are self appointed, with no qualifications. I often am an Imam simply because I am almost always the oldest person in the community There is no Hierarchy of clergy, all Muslims are clergy and all are equal.

You will find Muslims come in a wide variety of flavors. While we all share the same 5 pillars of Islam and some beliefs we are actually very individualistic. But it is quite clear that in the Sunni Madhabs (Sharia) lying is highly frowned upon.


In Islam the concept of sin is not a black/white view of right wrong

To be a sin conditions must be met.

1. the person has knowledge something is a sin

2. The person is aware of the consequences

3. They are acting of their own free will'


Sin is actually levels of responsibilities

1. Fiqh--Things we are obligated to do. Failure to deliberatly not do them will result in punishment
2. Sunnah-- Desired to do. will be rewarded for doing.
3. Halal--neutral no punishment or reward involved for doing or not doing
4. Makroof--Desired to not do. things we will be rewarded for not doing
5. Haram--Absolutly forbidden to do will result in punishment

Lying depending on the conditions of the lie will be either Makroof or Haram. The concept is very similar to the Catholic concept of Venial sin and mortal sin.

There are 3 situations in which lying would be No.4 Makroof

Quote:
But there are some instances in which Islam permits lying, if that serves a greater purpose or wards off a greater harm:

These cases include the following:

1- When a person is intermediating in order to bring about reconciliation between two disputing parties.

2- When a man speaks to his wife, or a wife to her husband, concerning matters that will increase the love between them. (like complementing her)

3- War.

It was narrated from Umm Kulthoom bint ‘Uqbah that she heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “He is not a liar who brings about reconciliation among people, conveys good words and says good things.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2546; Muslim, 2605

It was narrated that Asma’ bint Yazeed said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Lies are not appropriate except in three cases: when a man speaks to his wife to please her, telling lies at times of war, and lying in order to bring about reconciliation between people.”
http://www.nairaland.com/809331/taqi...-permitted-lie


That does not mean they are encouraged or permitted. It is always best to always tell the truth. but Islam does take Human nature into consideration.

This is simila to the Catholic concept of venial sin in those 3 case. No severe punishment for doing, but encouraged not to and we will be rewarded if we have the strength to not do so.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 07-26-2015 at 01:36 PM..
 
Old 07-26-2015, 10:37 PM
 
67 posts, read 61,882 times
Reputation: 65
I've found taqiya to be something that is brought up by non-muslims when addressed with a point they can't refute.

Lying for the religion is allowed in cases of your body's limbs being in danger.

But lying to make Islam "sound good" as some non-Muslims suggest in not right.
 
Old 07-26-2015, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,587,520 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am certain at least one person will bring those up. I will reply when they do.
So you are the one who is hollering, i.e. post #5.

From the perspective of the Philosophy of Morals and Ethics, lying is not permissible but exceptions are accepted in justified situations on 'life or death' situations.
However when the danger is over, the person must openly declare his 'white' lies together with justifications.

The manner where lying is permitted in the Hadiths leave it open for abuse.
The fact is SOME [20% = 300 million ] Muslims interpret from the Quran and Hadiths as if they are always at "war" with non-Muslims the infidels as spoken by Allah. So they lie to non-Muslims whenever they want in such a situation, especially when they are minority in a Kafir country.

Some would lie to women [wives] when overcome by lust.

The problems is there is no central authority to decide who is right and who is wrong. The problem is worst when the deciding point is a marginal one.
 
Old 07-27-2015, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
So you are the one who is hollering, i.e. post #5.

From the perspective of the Philosophy of Morals and Ethics, lying is not permissible but exceptions are accepted in justified situations on 'life or death' situations.
However when the danger is over, the person must openly declare his 'white' lies together with justifications.

The manner where lying is permitted in the Hadiths leave it open for abuse.
The fact is SOME [20% = 300 million ] Muslims interpret from the Quran and Hadiths as if they are always at "war" with non-Muslims the infidels as spoken by Allah. So they lie to non-Muslims whenever they want in such a situation, especially when they are minority in a Kafir country.

Some would lie to women [wives] when overcome by lust.

The problems is there is no central authority to decide who is right and who is wrong. The problem is worst when the deciding point is a marginal one.
What is the basis for this:
Quote:
The fact is SOME [20% = 300 million ] Muslims interpret from the Quran and Hadiths as if they are always at "war" with non-Muslims the infidels as spoken by Allah

Justifying a lie is not unique among Muslims. It is a Jihad faced by all people, we all find our selves involved in situations where a "Little harmless fib" seems to be the best choice and causing the least harm. that is part of the Jihad all humans face

Our Jihad becomes one of having the steength to present the truth in a constructive manner and not as a deliberate choice to cause harm

There are people that savor in the opportunity to tell a neighbor a truth that is going to cause them pain.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 08-08-2015, 06:11 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,765 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
4. In time of war to confuse the enemy

I am certain at least one person will bring those up. I will reply when they do.

I will bring up this one. One response I have seen is that this is a common thing that every army will do. When you are fighting a war of course you want to deceive the enemy. And that's correct of course: it's entirely normal to deceive an enemy in wartime.

However, this response ignores the issue that Muslim fundamentalists may well see themselves as "at war" with any other type of civilization.

So they basically have permission to lie like crazy about Islam.

Now to be clear, I think most Muslim dishonesty about their religion (which is very common) is not anything deliberate like that. Rather it's just that Muslims can't be critical of their religion for dogmatic reasons. It's just not possible for many of them to admit that their religion has many flaws.
 
Old 08-08-2015, 06:36 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,765 times
Reputation: 64
An example I noticed:

one Muslim cleric recently appeared on video counseling Muslims to tell Christians, “I wish you the best,” whereby the latter might “understand it to mean you’re wishing them best in terms of their [Christmas] celebration.” But—here the sheikh giggles as he explains—“by saying I wish you the best, you mean in your heart I wish you become a Muslim.”[11]


Taqiyya about Taqiyya | Raymond Ibrahim



Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top