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Old 08-16-2015, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The Qur'an and Islam is because all of the negative stuff from the hate sites is false."

I found that most of the so-called 'hate sites' mostly post verses from the Quran and hadith and honestly discuss them. And I have to say it really bugs me when Muslims start talking about 'hate sites'. The hate comes from the Quran and hadiths. If there was no hate and incitement to violence in these Islamic writings then there would be no sites critical of Islam.

I have been accused by Muslims of being a hater. But what do I 'hate'? Rape, terrorism, murder, men having sex with children, beating women, hatred and threats against ME (a disbeliever)! Should I like these things?

The root of hate is Islam, not the sites that are critical of Islam's hate. Muslims have learned a dishonest tactic: call the people who are against the hate and terrorism and evil haters.

"I do speak out against Muslims that commit crimes and atrocities and quite loudly when they attempt to attribute them to Islam."

Can you speak out against allah and all his calls for terrible and endless punishment and hate towards disbelievers?

Can you speak out against allah's permission to rape captive women?

Can you speak out against Muhammed attacking unarmed villages?

Can you speak out against Muhammed letting his men mass rape captive women?

Can you speak out against Muhammed having sex with a 4th grader?

Can you speak out against Muhammed owning slaves?

Can you speak out against Muhammed passing around captive women as booty?

Can you speak out against Muhammed ordering people to be murdered?

Can you speak out against Muhammed selling women?

Can you speak out against allah saying it is OK to beat wives?

Can you speak out against Muhammed's demand that homosexuals be executed?

Can you speak out against Muhammed hitting Aisha, his child bride?

While I can understand a person believing Allaah(swt) is showing hatred because of the punishment for disbelievers.

I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions.

We are given choices and knowledge os the results.

We have been created to live eternal. We do have a choice of choosing to be with or without God(swt) Those who choose eternity without God(swt) will be granted their desire. It is impossible to comprhend eternity without God(swt) and in Human terms an understandable description. Now if life without God(swt) will be exactly as the description of Hell, I do not know. But it probably is an adequate way to make us known it will be the exact opposite of what eternity with God(swt) will be.

Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be.

A person who chooses hell does so of their own free will and with knowledge of how they could have avoided it. Disbelief is not unbelief. Unbelief is the result of not knowing, that does not lead to hell on it's own, those that do not know will be judget only upon their deed and the knowledge that they have. Dibelievers do know God(swt) exists and they deliberatly choose to ignore him. They have full knowledge they will be sent to hell and they choose it over heaven.
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Old 08-16-2015, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,879 posts, read 2,384,245 times
Reputation: 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The Qur'an and Islam is because all of the negative stuff from the hate sites is false."

I found that most of the so-called 'hate sites' mostly post verses from the Quran and hadith and honestly discuss them. And I have to say it really bugs me when Muslims start talking about 'hate sites'. The hate comes from the Quran and hadiths. If there was no hate and incitement to violence in these Islamic writings then there would be no sites critical of Islam.

I have been accused by Muslims of being a hater. But what do I 'hate'? Rape, terrorism, murder, men having sex with children, beating women, hatred and threats against ME (a disbeliever)! Should I like these things?

The root of hate is Islam, not the sites that are critical of Islam's hate. Muslims have learned a dishonest tactic: call the people who are against the hate and terrorism and evil haters.

"I do speak out against Muslims that commit crimes and atrocities and quite loudly when they attempt to attribute them to Islam."

Can you speak out against allah and all his calls for terrible and endless punishment and hate towards disbelievers?

Can you speak out against allah's permission to rape captive women?

Can you speak out against Muhammed attacking unarmed villages?

Can you speak out against Muhammed letting his men mass rape captive women?

Can you speak out against Muhammed having sex with a 4th grader?

Can you speak out against Muhammed owning slaves?

Can you speak out against Muhammed passing around captive women as booty?

Can you speak out against Muhammed ordering people to be murdered?

Can you speak out against Muhammed selling women?

Can you speak out against allah saying it is OK to beat wives?

Can you speak out against Muhammed's demand that homosexuals be executed?

Can you speak out against Muhammed hitting Aisha, his child bride?
The problem is that some fringe groups are interpreting the "WHOLE ISLAM RELIGION" to mirror the Xtremist point of view..and given my experience in my lifetime..Muslim's are "Lovers not fighter's"..But that will never stop extremist from blaming ALL muslim's for their religion...

It really does sicken's me..since out of the many billions world wide..There are actually more sacrificed Muslim's who refuse to abide by those rule demanded by such extremists..than any American/or any other citizen's of the world!!

When will people wake up to the fact that what's going on is an resurgence of extremism...FAR WORSE than even the Taliban were doing to Afghanistan women...and demanding surrenders....

NOW We have ISSIL..Just another extremist wart/nasty symptom of aberrancy!!..filling in the void created by initial declared war back in early 2002...Whatever..water under bridge..BUT War ( occupancy) by US or any other Democracy will always be considered as invasive/interference..Let those tribes figure it out..Is that not logical?

Last edited by Lyndarn; 08-16-2015 at 06:24 PM..
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Old 08-16-2015, 06:29 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,612 times
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"since out of the many billions world wide."

Many billions of what?

"The problem is that some fringe groups are interpreting the "WHOLE ISLAM RELIGION" to mirror the Xtremist point of view"

Have you read the Quran and hadiths?
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Old 08-16-2015, 07:29 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,612 times
Reputation: 435
"I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."

How can you say such a thing? Giving people 'free will' so many can be tortured and slaughtered is love? You are saying that if people do not submit to Islam (which they can't even understand as the Quran is not translatable according to you!!) they deserve an eternity of horrible torture. How can you have that much hate? You wish upon ME endless terrible torture and think the creature who will inflict the endless torture on me is wonderful and loving and merciful...how dare you.

"And for them is a great punishment....for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods....for them is a painful punishment....The Fire (of punishment)....the severest of punishment....a humiliating punishment....for the disbelievers is a painful punishment.... in the Hereafter a great punishment.....will force him to the punishment of the Fire...." This garbage goes on for SEVERAL HUNDRED verses!!

What you are saying is that if someone so much stronger demands something under threat of endless torture and doesn't get it and he tortures and slaughters the person, it is love! This is really the worst thing I have ever heard, and that is saying a lot. This is worse than 1984!

It is just beyond heartbreaking that someone could have this much hatred and ill will for mankind in them. I could NEVER wish horrible endless torture on ANYONE. Not Muslims or criminals and certainly not on all people who disbelieve what I believe. And then to call it love!

Seriously, this kind of hate is beyond my ability to comprehend. And the worst is that you cannot even see it.

"Dibelievers do know God(swt) exists and they deliberatly choose to ignore him."

BS.
Disbelief:
1. (tr) to reject as false or lying; refuse to accept as true or truthful
2. (usually foll by: in) to have no faith (in): disbelieve in God.

Quran 2:6 Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

Quran 2:104 O ye of Faith! Say not (to the Messenger) words of ambiguous import, but words of respect; and hearken (to him): To those without Faith is a grievous punishment.

" Unbelief is the result of not knowing, that does not lead to hell on it's own,"

BS.

Unbeliever:
one that does not believe in a particular religious faith
: one that does not believe : an incredulous person

2:217 Yusuf Ali
They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

3:177 Yusuf Ali
Those who purchase Unbelief at the price of faith,- not the least harm will they do to Allah, but they will have a grievous punishment.
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Old 08-16-2015, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
The Qur'an and Islam is because all of the negative stuff from the hate sites is false."
The following reply is worth repeating [mine].

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I found that most of the so-called 'hate sites' mostly post verses from the Quran and hadith and honestly discuss them.
And I have to say it really bugs me when Muslims start talking about 'hate sites'.

The hate comes from the Quran and hadiths. [a fact]

If there was no hate and incitement to violence in these Islamic writings then there would be no sites critical of Islam.
The control is why there are no specific so-called 'hate' sites for Eastern Religions. Why is it that Islam has these so-called 'hate' sites. There are sites criticizing Christianity but they do not focus on violence.

It is a fact there are [partly] extreme no-holds-barred elements of hatred within Islam influencing SOME Muslims to commit evils and violence on non-Muslims. The evidence to this fact is glaringly evident.

It is very human and obvious that concerned citizens of humanity will critique such evils and violence just as they would critique the evils of Nazism, fascism, communism and any evils from any source.

What is so bizarre is many Muslims and their apologists will condemn these concerned citizens of humanity as spreading hatred when they are criticizing real hatred committed by SOME Muslims as inspired by the evil elements in the Quran and its associated texts.

It may be true 10++ years ago some overzealous critiques did stretch a bit in their presentation, especially when information on Islam, the Quran, Hadiths, Sira and other texts were not widely available in English.
But now it is different and many of the sites criticizing Islam has evolved with more available and precise information and present much greater accurate original references and give their opinion based on those facts.
Now we can get to 50++ translations of the Quran easily in the internet, its various expositions in English. The full set of Hadiths and the Sira are also easily available. At there are tons of information on Islam.

In the past I had been relying on secondary sources, but then I bite the bullet [i.e. Quran to crude for me to read in full] and read the Quran full time in depth with detailed analysis to form my own original opinion based on the original translated source. I am thinking about learning Arabic, but I don't think it is worth the effort.

No one is perfect, if any those sites who criticized were to present inaccurate information, I am certain they will readily changed to the justified fact.

So, the HATE comes from Islam, Quran, Hadiths, its ethos and other related matters of Islam.
Those who criticize Islam are merely conveying the hatred originating from Islam.
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Old 08-16-2015, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndarn View Post
The problem is that some fringe groups are interpreting the "WHOLE ISLAM RELIGION" to mirror the Xtremist point of view..and given my experience in my lifetime..Muslim's are "Lovers not fighter's"..But that will never stop extremist from blaming ALL muslim's for their religion...

It really does sicken's me..since out of the many billions world wide..There are actually more sacrificed Muslim's who refuse to abide by those rule demanded by such extremists..than any American/or any other citizen's of the world!!
Where the hell did ALL extremists blame ALL Muslims for their religion.

In most cases if any one uses the term 'Muslims' in their criticism it is because they are lazy or not habituated to qualify that term with 'SOME' [I use this most of the time] or 'NOT ALL.' Their original intention is they meant to refer to SOME Muslims and not to ALL Muslims.

Most reasonable people will take note when it is pointed out to them they are committed the generalization fallacy. Even if they continue their old habit of generalization, I would not bothered if the context is clear, they meant SOME and NOT-ALL.

Quote:
When will people wake up to the fact that what's going on is an resurgence of
extremism...FAR WORSE than even the Taliban were doing to Afghanistan
women...and demanding surrenders....

NOW We have ISSIL..Just another extremist wart/nasty symptom of
aberrancy!!..filling in the void created by initial declared war back in early
2002...Whatever..water under bridge..BUT War ( occupancy) by US or any other
Democracy will always be considered as invasive/interference..Let those tribes
figure it out..Is that not logical?
It is not totally logical because your view lack depth in critical thinking and problem solving skills.

Note this quote from Steven Weingberg, [modified]
"With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”

Thus with or without religion we will have political-related and all sorts of evils.
However religion, especially Islam, adds an extra and very significant dimension to the totality of all evils, i.e. religion-inspired evils which do not exists in the other larger mainstream religions.

It is true we can link US and other Democracy involvements in the emergence of ISIS, but that is not the critical element amongst many other variables. What about the inherent Sunni and Shia divide which existed and fighting each other even before the US existed. What about Boko Haram where the US and other Western democracies are not involved. What about historical elements. What about the social elements? There are merely secondary issues to the main root causes.
The 500 pound gorilla you missed out in these is ISLAM itself, the main root cause.



Here is my hypothesis;

1. There are evil prone people [say 20%] of various degrees in any large group.
2. Thus 20% of Muslims worldwide are likely to be evil-prone, the 80% are reasonable good people. Thus we are not blaming the majority of Muslims but only SOME.

3. There is a large percentage % >50% of evil elements [of various degrees] [with no-holds-barred] in the Quran [the core of Islam], within the ethos of Islam and other associated texts, e.g. Hadiths, Sira and others.

4. The emergence of ISIS is primarily due to the combination of element in 2 [20% of Muslims] with 3 [>50% of evil elements].

The other reasons, political involvement by US and others are secondary issues which should be addressed, but the critical root causes which MUST be dealt with to avoid fire fighting are elements from 2 and 3 above.
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Old 08-17-2015, 05:39 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The following reply is worth repeating [mine].

The control is why there are no specific so-called 'hate' sites for Eastern Religions. Why is it that Islam has these so-called 'hate' sites. There are sites criticizing Christianity but they do not focus on violence.

It is a fact there are [partly] extreme no-holds-barred elements of hatred within Islam influencing SOME Muslims to commit evils and violence on non-Muslims. The evidence to this fact is glaringly evident.

It is very human and obvious that concerned citizens of humanity will critique such evils and violence just as they would critique the evils of Nazism, fascism, communism and any evils from any source.

What is so bizarre is many Muslims and their apologists will condemn these concerned citizens of humanity as spreading hatred when they are criticizing real hatred committed by SOME Muslims as inspired by the evil elements in the Quran and its associated texts.

It may be true 10++ years ago some overzealous critiques did stretch a bit in their presentation, especially when information on Islam, the Quran, Hadiths, Sira and other texts were not widely available in English.
But now it is different and many of the sites criticizing Islam has evolved with more available and precise information and present much greater accurate original references and give their opinion based on those facts.
Now we can get to 50++ translations of the Quran easily in the internet, its various expositions in English. The full set of Hadiths and the Sira are also easily available. At there are tons of information on Islam.

In the past I had been relying on secondary sources, but then I bite the bullet [i.e. Quran to crude for me to read in full] and read the Quran full time in depth with detailed analysis to form my own original opinion based on the original translated source. I am thinking about learning Arabic, but I don't think it is worth the effort.

No one is perfect, if any those sites who criticized were to present inaccurate information, I am certain they will readily changed to the justified fact.

So, the HATE comes from Islam, Quran, Hadiths, its ethos and other related matters of Islam.
Those who criticize Islam are merely conveying the hatred originating from Islam.
If you travel into the far east you will find sites that criticize Eastern Religions. India is a good place to begin such a search.

If you go to India you will find the Majority Hindu Population is quite anti Sikh and Anti-Muslim. North Korea shows all religions in a hateful manner. There have been conflicts between Taoists, Buddhist and Shinto in China and Japan


Perhaps because the majority of the Hate site you see are in English. Currently they are only concerned about Christianity, Judaism and Islam.


Nearly all of the English Language Hate sites can be traced back to three or 4 people that claim to be former Muslim. They are also quite anti-Christian in their sites but currently that is overshadowed by their anti-Judaism and anti-Islam views.

Once they subdue the Jews and Muslims Christians will become a more visible target.

A bit of irony is those who watch the anti-Islam sites are appalled at the Anti-Judaism sites promoted by Some Palestinians and Iranians in the Mideast. They are all the same. Makes no different if a hate site is anti-Muslim, anti-Sjkh, Anti-Judaism, or anti-Christian all seem to be the same. All have an agenda and are hate mongers.

The hate sites are best at teaching hatred and that is primarily what one will learn from them.
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:28 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,612 times
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"The hate sites are best at teaching hatred and that is primarily what one will learn from them."

You have it backwards. These so-called 'hate' sites are speaking out against terrorism and rape and slavery and child brides and the relentless hate in Islam. The things that Muslims (including you) give Muhammed/Allah a pass on.

Muslims want me, a disbeliever/unbeliever to suffer this:
“for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods....Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes. And for them is a great punishment.....for them is a painful punishment....The Fire (of punishment)....the severest of punishment....a humiliating punishment....for the disbelievers is a painful punishment.... in the Hereafter a great punishment.....will force him to the punishment of the Fire...."”

You say:
"I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."

The choice of submit or face endless and horrible torture isn't much of a choice. But you call this love.

Muslims can't speak against the demands in Islam for terrorism or hate or slavery or endless torture. Thank goodness others do.
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"The hate sites are best at teaching hatred and that is primarily what one will learn from them."

You have it backwards. These so-called 'hate' sites are speaking out against terrorism and rape and slavery and child brides and the relentless hate in Islam. The things that Muslims (including you) give Muhammed/Allah a pass on.

Muslims want me, a disbeliever/unbeliever to suffer this:
“for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods....Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes. And for them is a great punishment.....for them is a painful punishment....The Fire (of punishment)....the severest of punishment....a humiliating punishment....for the disbelievers is a painful punishment.... in the Hereafter a great punishment.....will force him to the punishment of the Fire...."”

You say:
"I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."

The choice of submit or face endless and horrible torture isn't much of a choice. But you call this love.

Muslims can't speak against the demands in Islam for terrorism or hate or slavery or endless torture. Thank goodness others do.
I have no desire for anyone to suffer, not even slightly. The concept of Hell is detestable. But so are disease, famine, war etc.

All suffering comes as a result of Human choices. The pains of life in the physical world are often because of the choices of others and not our own choice.

The pain of eternity are by our own choosing. a person is not going to be condemned to Hellfire simply because they are not Muslims.

From what I understand it takes a number of factors to get yourself into Hell.

1. A belief in the existence of God(swt) or a strong reason you should have, but have deliberately chosen not to examine the existence of God(swt)

2. Full knowledge of what your choices are and the result of what your choices will be.

3. Free will and deliberate choosing of what will lead to Hell.



Allaah(swt) created 2 places for us to spend eternity (Actually at least 14 places as there are at least 7 levels of Hell and 7 levels of Heaven)


No one will enter Hell without having been given the ability to avoid doing so.

Simple thing the hereafter will consist of 2 places. One will be filled with the presence of God(swt) and the other will be empty of his presense and his blessings. That is what I assume is meant by the eternal burning.
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Old 08-17-2015, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If you travel into the far east you will find sites that criticize Eastern Religions. India is a good place to begin such a search.

If you go to India you will find the Majority Hindu Population is quite anti Sikh and Anti-Muslim. North Korea shows all religions in a hateful manner. There have been conflicts between Taoists, Buddhist and Shinto in China and Japan

Perhaps because the majority of the Hate site you see are in English. Currently they are only concerned about Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
You are simply sweeping without evidence. I have not come across a site [if any it would be rare] that is specifically directed the major Eastern Religions.
There are various criticism of Eastern religions in various articles, videos and forum within a site which include promoting their own religion.

I do not prefer the term 'hatred' in a serious sense it refers to something that cannot be changed easily, i.e. embedded in the DNA, e.g. race, sex, and other human variables.

The BIG difference is, when other religions critique Eastern religions, they are criticizing their doctrines and practices, not any violence that is inspired by the religion and it holy texts directly. In any case, most of the critiques are based on misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the range of knowledge and spirituality out of context and not on the full range that the Eastern religions offers.

Note the criticisms against Islam is based on REAL serious evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who were inspired by the Quran, hadiths, Sira and ethos of Islam. Thus there is a BIG difference between the criticizing Islam and other religions. Where there are elements of contempt against Islam based on doctrines only, that is not a big issue.

Why we MUST critique Islam is because of the real potential threat by SOME Muslims to the well being of humanity. The evidence is already very glaring.


Quote:
Nearly all of the English Language Hate sites can be traced back to three or 4 people that claim to be former Muslim. They are also quite anti-Christian in their sites but currently that is overshadowed by their anti-Judaism and anti-Islam views.

Once they subdue the Jews and Muslims Christians will become a more visible target.

A bit of irony is those who watch the anti-Islam sites are appalled at the Anti-Judaism sites promoted by Some Palestinians and Iranians in the Mideast. They are all the same. Makes no different if a hate site is anti-Muslim, anti-Sjkh, Anti-Judaism, or anti-Christian all seem to be the same. All have an agenda and are hate mongers.

The hate sites are best at teaching hatred and that is primarily what one will learn from them.
If you traced back further, it [the site critical] is a fact it was started by one person. This is irrelevant.

What is relevant today is there are many sites that are critical of Islam and their presentations are based on truths. There may be some overzealous one who tend to go overboard but they claims can be easily counterchecked from easily resources at present.

I agree the anti-Islam sites started by Christians may have some vested interest for their Christianity, but again whatever they posts can be easily verified these day with the internet at our finger tips.

Most of the sites started by former Muslims are based on their discovery to the evil elements within Islam. They are merely expressing their concern to humanity. Their posting can also be easily verified.
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