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Old 07-31-2015, 09:53 AM
 
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Exhibit A is the Koran. Itís supposed to be the eternal word of God. Muslims say that Muhammad couldnít possibly have invented it because he was (supposedly) illiterate. The proof that God wrote it, they say, lies in its inimitable style: who else but God could write so well? This is a little hard to swallow because, although there are beautiful passages in the Koran, much of it does look as though it were written by a semi-literate merchant. Well, thatís a little harsh. Itís more accurate to say that it seems to have been written by someone with a flair for poetic language, but with little sense of composition and with limited storytelling ability. Here are a couple of scholarly assessments:

His characters are all alike, and they utter the same platitudes. He is fond of dramatic dialogue, but has very little sense of dramatic scene or action. The logical connections between successive episodes is often loose, sometimes wanting; and points of importance, necessary for the clear understanding of the story, are likely to be left out. (C.C. Torrey, The Jewish Foundation of Islam, New York, 1933, p. 108)


The book aesthetically considered is by no means a first-rate performanceÖindispensable links, both in expression and in the sequence of events, are often omitted Ö and nowhere do we find a steady advance in the narration Ö and even the syntax betrays great awkwardnessÖ. (Theodor Noldeke in Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed., Vol. 15, pp. 898-906)


The Muslim comeback to such quibbling is that people who canít read classical Arabic canít possibly appreciate the Koran. The soaring style and lilting language of it are simply lost on the Arabic-challenged. In short, if you donít speak Arabic, then who are you to judge?


When I first came across this argument, it seemed to make senseófor a few minutes, anyway. Then I remembered that I donít read Greek either, but when I read Homer in translation I can usually distinguish the parts where he is telling a ripping good story from the parts where he is merely nodding. For that matter, I donít read Russian, but when I read Tolstoy in translation I can appreciate the beauty of his descriptions while noticing at the same time that he occasionally goes on too long about peasants cutting hay in the fields. You donít have to read French to appreciate Balzac or Italian to appreciate Manzoni. Why is Arabic the only language that doesnít translate?




Needed: A New Church Policy Toward Islam [Pt. 3] - Crisis Magazine
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Old 07-31-2015, 10:32 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,854 times
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim InThe Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a very flimsy counter.
The Taoist can also challenge you to write 10 chapters in original Chinese. [note the original scripts of the Chinese language]. You cannot translate the original Tao te Ching into Quranic Arabic.

The point as I have argued, it is very intellectual immature to challenge one to repeat based on forms which can be very complex. It is impossible to repeat and replicate something that is complex at the levels of form.
However what is critical is we should deliberate on the matter of 'principles.'

The Quran is based on very kindergarten principles and false/illusory principles [e.g. God exists].
The basic principles of the Quran is so easy, i.e.
1. You will die and will be tortured in hell on Judgment day [Quran 1:4]
2. God is great, all powerful and a supreme creator - [1:2]
3. Only the all powerful God can give eternal life in heaven. [Various verses]
4. Therefore one must believe in God [Allah], then God is merciful [1:1, 3].

God promise salvation to eternal life to Muslims.
But the fact is God do not exists.
So the promise of salvation is groundless and fake.
The Quran cannot be from God,
Why I should I bother to replicate something that is false.
Continuum, what would be required to prove to you, that Allaah, (God), IS; In your terminology, "that God, exists?"



Wassalaam. devotee
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Old 07-31-2015, 10:44 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,854 times
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim InThe Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.





Quote:
I have told you why. There are a LOT of books I could not write 10 chapters of. I doubt that you could write even ONE chapter of the books I am working on. That proves nothing. It is foolish to suggest that because you could never write 10 episodes of Star -trek that makes it true.


Someone, somewhere can write a book similar to the one you claim I cannot write. But, that would not prove anything either. Someone, must be able to write ten episodes better than Star-trek! What is your point?



Wassalaam. devotee
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Old 07-31-2015, 10:45 AM
 
39,220 posts, read 10,895,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliksder View Post
What does that mean? If I make up my own fantasy language that is similar to say, Spanish, it is "not like any earthly language" but will be understood by Spanish speakers.

What exactly do you mean when you say it is not "like any Earthly Language?"
Tolkien made up several, two of which, the elvish tongues Sindarin and Quenya are so beautiful that Liv Ulmann who played Arwen (Not Galadriel as I once stupidly said ) continues to study it.

But I rather doubt that Quranic Arabic is a totally different language, otherwise, why would not that become the universal language of Islam?
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Old 07-31-2015, 10:49 AM
 
39,220 posts, read 10,895,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim InThe Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.









Someone, somewhere can write a book similar to the one you claim I cannot write. But, that would not prove anything either. Someone, must be able to write ten episodes better than Star-trek! What is your point?



Wassalaam. devotee
That your challenge to imitate the Quran in style, metre, language or content, does nothing whatsoever to prove that there is anything more special about it than any other Holy book and a good many that are not Holy. My challenge is a simpler one - imitate my style, is you want to prove Islam. Ok, someone somewhere can do it. Someone somewhere could probably do a Quran impression. So what? So it gets you nothing, coming and asking me to write them.
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Old 07-31-2015, 10:52 AM
 
39,220 posts, read 10,895,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim InThe Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.




Continuum, what would be required to prove to you, that Allaah, (God), IS; In your terminology, "that God, exists?"



Wassalaam. devotee
Devotee, what would be required to prove to you that Allah (or Allaah, if you prefer) Is in fact one of the other gods? Let me guess Nothing could ever persuade you on that. So why come and ask Continuum such things?
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Old 07-31-2015, 10:58 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,854 times
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim InThe Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.




Quote:
In other words, the goalposts would be moved. So, even if I were to master the Arabic of the Quran and wrote 10 chapters just as good I would be told that they in no way compared with the divine qualities of the original.

Let me tell you how you can prove Islam to be true. Write 10 posts like mine. If you can't, it proves by default that atheism is true.

And if you did write 10 posts in my style, I could just claim that they were not 'really' like mine.

You see what I mean when I say that your challenge is a swindle?

Now I know that this is not going to make any difference to your faith or LI's, for that matter. Nor is it intended to. This is just to put you on notice that polemic tricks of that kind are not going to fool us into crediting Islam as anything more than just another religion. And one that comes quite a way down the list of those that appeal to me.

You are of the misconception, that a counterfeiter, somewhere, cannot duplicate your posts. You have been swindled already!

Faith, comes from Allaah (SWT), Alone. You cannot suddenly decide that you have faith, and then call the challenge presented in The Noble Qur'an, a polemic trick! You are only fooling yourself.



Wassalaam. devotee
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Old 07-31-2015, 11:27 AM
 
39,220 posts, read 10,895,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim InThe Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.







You are of the misconception, that a counterfeiter, somewhere, cannot duplicate your posts. You have been swindled already!

Faith, comes from Allaah (SWT), Alone. You cannot suddenly decide that you have faith, and then call the challenge presented in The Noble Qur'an, a polemic trick! You are only fooling yourself.



Wassalaam. devotee
Then you are (I would argue) of the misconception that nobody could write 10 good imitations of Classical or Quranic Arabic.

Wiki says: "Classical Arabic (CA), also known as Quranic Arabic, is the form of the Arabic language used in literary texts from Umayyad and Abbasid times (7th to 9th centuries). It is based on the medieval dialects of Arab tribes. Modern Standard Arabic (MSA) is the direct descendant used today throughout the Arab world in writing and in formal speaking,"

In other words it was written in the Arabic of the time. I gather the remarkable aspect of the Quran in is the poetic metre rather than the language itself.

Your final comments about Faith and the Qur'an are doing you no good in regard to this challenge which is the polemic trick, not the Qur'an. I never claimed the Qu'ran was a polemic trick. I said that your challenge was. Of course the challenge might have originated in the Qur'an " Let him write another like it, if what he say (that a man has written it)be true!"

Whether I or some other could write one like it makes no odds about whether it is true or not, no more than your inability to write 10 posts like mine (or someone else being able to) has any bearing on whether atheism is correct or not.

And Wassallam to you, friend.
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Old 07-31-2015, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim InThe Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.

Continuum, what would be required to prove to you, that Allaah, (God), IS; In your terminology, "that God, exists?"

Wassalaam. devotee
Note
"IS" that's nothing more than a copula. Note (3) re logic.

Quote:
1. something that connects or links together.
2. Also called linking verb. Grammar. a verb, as be, seem, or look, that serves as a connecting link or establishes an identity between subject and complement. Compare action verb.
3. Logic. a word or set of words that acts as a connecting link between the subject and predicate of a proposition.
Copula | Define Copula at Dictionary.com
In addition, 'Exist' or 'existence' is not a predicate.


Thus 'that God exists' indicate nothing but merely reflect a psychology of existential dilemma and desperation, angst, anxieties, hopelessness, despairs, FEARs, and HELL for most.

Your adoption of the challenge to replicate 10 or even one chapter[s] of the Quran is merely your psychological security blanket [floating on thin air] to boost your self-esteem.
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Old 07-31-2015, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
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If the Quran is of any refined and high quality it would have avoided the following contradiction;

Why Quran use "We" to Represent Allah if No Partners?

In addition there are tons of contradictions in the Quran itself with lots of other absurdities, violence and all sorts of evil.
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