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Old 08-01-2015, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Thank you. I get the idea that you CAN write text using Quranic Arabic but it will sound nothing like as 'euphonic' as the Qur'an actually sounds. What I would need to know is whether there are any Ummayad or Abbasid documents that use a language similar to Quranic, or early courtly Arabic documents again don't approach the Qur'an.

I must at least accept that I could write 10 or more chapters like the content of the Quran (with as you say about 200 root words - toot is quite appropriate for a Quranic symphony), but certainly not in this euphonious quality that you speak of and which Go Cardinals hinted at, that you could recite this stuff for ever and not get tired of it.

Incidentally, in reading about the compilation and codification of the Quran by Othman, I looked for anything that would touch on his authority - something obviously of importance to him. There was one supposed prophecy of Muhammad assuring that righteous would receive the succession.


P.s. It is quite interesting and tantalizing to read of the importance of Arabic poetry before Islam and how highly formalized it was and how the poets were trained in it. I read that the sound and form of it were considered more important than the content. Given that the Qur'an is supposed to have been compiled from various memories and some inscribed artefacts, putting together the resultant book might well have required the services of Uthman's best poets. And they would have had a long tradition of being very good.
P. p s. LI. I am grateful for your answers. Despite myself, I am getting quite interested...
Even in my non-Muslim years I found the Linguistics of the Qur'an to be quite fascinating. I learned to read and write Arabic long before I accepted Islam and originaly managed to get hold of a Qur;an primarily to use as a study guide for learning Arabic, but soon discovered It did not work that way. Learning the Qur'an did not help to learn Arabic, but learning Arabic was a big help in learning to read the Qur'an.

Following my avocation for languages I find the Semitic languages fascinating.

While there are other books written in Kufic and Hijaz script none except the Qur'an have the tajweed pronunciation mark and those did not appear for several Hundred of years after the Uthman Qur'an.. The Hijaz dialect has quite a bit difference in pronunciation as The Qur'an.

Written Arabic was in it's infancy when the Qur'an was revealed/ It did not have any pronunciation or punctuation marks. It was written with just consonants and without vowels, 3 letters being used for a word. It was basically a memortoll rather than transmission or preservation. It was virtually impossible to read a note unless you had already memorized it.


Numerous scripts developed rapidly. There were at least 7 dialects of Arabic being spoken at the time. Being able to speak one did not mean you could speak with a person who spoke a different dialect.

Up until the time of Uthman numerous letter styles (scripts) developed. Uthman standardized it to only Kufic and all other letter forms were destryoyed. But still one could not read the Qur'an unless they had already memorized it. the written form was simply a memory crutch.

People first memorized the Qur'an through a Hafiz(A person that has memorized the Qur'an) and only then did they learn to read it. The Qral recetatin is still considered the standard for the written Qur'an.

Even today it is impossible tp read the ancient Qur'ans unless you already have a good knowledge of what was written.

After the pronunciation marks and vowels were added it became easier to read, but it also reduced the need for Hafiz. At one time virtually every Muslim had memorized the Qur'an today that is down to about 10 or 25%
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Old 08-01-2015, 08:11 PM
 
39,205 posts, read 10,887,543 times
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How very strange. I can see why the divine dictation claims are made about it. You will not be surprised that, as a skeptic, I am thinking in terms of 'what could be the explanation?' While you bods already know.
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Old 08-01-2015, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Read the Tao text that you posted in its native text/language about 100 times and you will be bored to death.

Same is the case with work of Shakespeare - read his most famous book/writing/drama/novel about 100 times and you will be fed up with it!!

Pick a chapter from Quran and read it in Arabic for 1 million times and you won't be bored. That's a miracle of Quran. No matter how many times you recite it in its original language you NEVER get bored. You are NEVER fed up - you NEVER can get enough of it - NEVER!

Now, try again to bring 10 chapters like Quran. YOU CANT!
GoCardinals: "You are NEVER fed up - you NEVER can get enough of it - NEVER!"
That is only applicable to "You" and the likes.
How you done a poll to substantiate your hypothesis?

Being infected with the religious bug is similar to being infatuated with someone.
In such a situation the infatuated person will NEVER get fed up - and NEVER can get enough of the object one is infatuated with.
This is all about psychology and that can be cured, note the similar elements;
https://www.psychologytoday.com/arti...01501/obsessed
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-first-moments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction_psychology


Note the OP 'Islam-in-part Bashes Non-Muslims
Islam-in-part Bashes Non-Muslims.
See attached below, a sample of verses condemning non-Muslims in the worst terms.

With the above it is most likely 80% of people on Earth will be not only bored but will be put off and be offended when the read the Quran.



Quote:
8:22. Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the
dumb, who have no sense.

8:55. Lo! the Worst of Beasts in
Allah's sight are the ungrateful [infidels] who will not believe;

27:82.
And when the Word is fulfilled concerning them, We shall bring forth a
beast of the earth to speak unto them because mankind had not faith in
Our revelations.

2:65. And ye know of those of you [the Jews] who broke
the Sabbath, bow We said unto them [the Jews]: Be ye apes, despised and
hated!

5:60. Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for
retribution with Allah? Worse (is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him
[Kafir] on whom His wrath hath fallen! Worse is he of whose sort Allah hath
turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in
worse plight and further astray from the plain road.

7:166. So when
they [Jews infidels] took pride in that which they had been forbidden, We said
unto them: Be ye apes despised and loathed!
[Dehumanized]

7:176. And had We willed We could have raised him by their
means, but he [Adam] clung to the earth and followed his [Adam] own lust.
Therefor his [Adam] likeness is as the likeness of a dog; if thou
attackest him he panteth with his tongue out, and if thou leavest him he panteth
with his tongue out. Such is the likeness [as a dog] of the, people
[infidels] who deny Our revelations. Narrate unto them [Children of Adam] the
history (of the men of old), that haply they may take thought.

7:179.
Already have We urged unto hell many [infidels] of the jinn and humankind,
having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see
not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle
nay, but they [infidels] are worse! These are the neglectful.
[Dehumanized]

8:65. O Prophet! Exhort the believers [Muslims] to fight.
If there be of you [Muslims] twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred
[infidels], and if there be of you a hundred steadfast they shall overcome a
thousand of those [infidels] who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers)
[the infidels] are a folk without intelligence.
[put-down]


9:28. O ye who believe! The idolaters only are
unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after
this their year [AH 9]. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise)
Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
[Dehumanized]

9:35. On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire
of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be
branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye
hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard. [branded like the
Jews numbered tatoo by Nazi - another sign of dehumanizing]

25:44. Or
deemest thou that most of them hear or understand? They [infidels] are but as
the cattle, nay, but they are farther astray!

29:41. The likeness
of those [infidels] who choose other patrons than Allah is as the likeness of
the spider [reduced to insect] when she taketh unto herself a house, and
lo! the frailest of all houses is the spider's house, if they but knew.
[infidels chose inferior gods in idols]

47:12. Lo! Allah will cause
those who believe and do good works to enter Gardens underneath which rivers
flow; while those who disbelieve [infidels] take their comfort in this life and
eat even as the cattle eat, and the Fire is their
habitation.

74:50. As they [infidels] were frightened
asses

98:6. Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the
Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst
of created beings. [note contrast 3:110 Muslims are the best] [us versus
them]
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Old 08-01-2015, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461
Here are the verses leading to Muhammad challenging the infidels to produce 10 chapters of the like of the Quran.
11:12 A likely thing, that thou wouldst forsake aught of that which hath been revealed unto thee, and that thy breast should be straitened for it, because they [infidels] say: Why hath not a treasure been sent down for him, or an angel come with him? Thou art but a warner, and Allah is in charge of all things.

11:13 Or they say: He [Muhammad] hath invented it.
Say [[Muhammad]]: Then bring ten surahs, the like thereof, invented, and call on everyone ye can beside Allah, if ye are truthful!

11:14 And if they [infidels] answer not your prayer, then know that it is revealed only in the knowledge of Allah; and that there is no Allah save Him. Will ye then be (of) those who surrender?
Re 11:12 - the Quraish and those who are familiar with the Torah and Gospels [taken as words of God] were very aware most of the prophets and messengers of God were able to produce miracles to justify their status as stated by God itself in their holy texts.

Thus the Quraish and infidels naturally expected and asked Muhammad to perform miracles to justify his status and relation to with God.

11:13 Since Muhammad could not produce any miracles the Quraish-infidels accused Muhammad of having invented the revelation by his own thoughts.
Muhammad's only defense was merely to ask them to produce 10 chapters of the like.

11:14 Then jump to conclusion, if they [infidels] cannot produce 10 chapters, then Muhammad's revelations must be from a real Allah.

The above is a cheap and childish challenge.
If Allah is omnipotent, Allah could easily assist Muhammad to produce miracles like those of Jesus, Moses, Noah and other prophets to settle the issue.

Within the Quran, Muhammad was challenged many times to produce miracles to justify his claim of his direct association with God but every time he would give flimsy excuses instead of addressing the challenge to produce miracles directly.

The fact [can be easily inferred] is Muhammad produced the revelations himself from his own thoughts.
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Old 08-02-2015, 06:34 AM
 
39,205 posts, read 10,887,543 times
Reputation: 5096
Can't rep you, but this is putting some good points.

I have had the argument put that the poetical qualities of Quranic Arabic are very hard to duplicate. I am reminded of a music critic saying that "if you are as clever as Bach..you write a canon at half a bar spacing."

If anyone without his abilities tried it, that would probably sound like a camel choking up a hairball too.

I hinted that - in a language I could read - what the Qur'an has to say does not impress me (1) and the effort to find scientific truths in the text are even worse than the efforts to find science in Job or Isaiah.

Thus, taking the hints implied in the assembly of the text from odd memory and odd bits of inscription, in the Ummayad court and the tradition of highly -trained poets, one looks for other explanations besides proof that it was dictated by God.

(1) and apart from the quality of the poetical construction, if 10 of my best posts do not beat 10 of the Quranic chapters for ..well, humanity, for one... I will eat my bookshelf.

P.s appropos of nothing. I have added to my list of "to do's" study the history of the Islamic nations and read one chapter of the Qur'an (yes, I have one) each day. I have read bits before but not the whole thing. Maybe get a recitation site to hear these euphonious qualities for myself.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-02-2015 at 07:11 AM..
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Old 08-02-2015, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Can't rep you, but this is putting some good points.

I have had the argument put that the poetical qualities of Quranic Arabic are very hard to duplicate. I am reminded of a music critic saying that "if you are as clever as Bach..you write a canon at half a bar spacing."

If anyone without his abilities tried it, that would probably sound like a camel choking up a hairball too.

I hinted that - in a language I could read - what the Qur'an has to say does not impress me (1) and the effort to find scientific truths in the text are even worse than the efforts to find science in Job or Isaiah.

Thus, taking the hints implied in the assembly of the text from odd memory and odd bits of inscription, in the Ummayad court and the tradition of highly -trained poets, one looks for other explanations besides proof that it was dictated by God.

(1) and apart from the quality of the poetical construction, if 10 of my best posts do not beat 10 of the Quranic chapters for ..well, humanity, for one... I will eat my bookshelf.

P.s appropos of nothing. I have added to my list of "to do's" study the history of the Islamic nations and read one chapter of the Qur'an (yes, I have one) each day. I have read bits before but not the whole thing. Maybe get a recitation site to hear these euphonious qualities for myself.
HINT

The Sticky thread "Group Study of the Qur'an" has video recitations of the Qur'an in single Surah and in Juz.
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Old 08-02-2015, 12:54 PM
 
39,205 posts, read 10,887,543 times
Reputation: 5096
Ta. I began with the intro and Surah 1 and I am here to tell you it is tough to stick. I'm not going to go into details as you are my mate and I want to be nice, but ..it is hard for me.

I am enjoying the study of the origins. The religious conditions in which Muhammad grew up. However I don't want to get off topic.
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Old 08-02-2015, 10:25 PM
 
4,431 posts, read 1,652,849 times
Reputation: 1543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
GoCardinals: "You are NEVER fed up - you NEVER can get enough of it - NEVER!"
That is only applicable to "You" and the likes.
How you done a poll to substantiate your hypothesis?

Being infected with the religious bug is similar to being infatuated with someone.
In such a situation the infatuated person will NEVER get fed up - and NEVER can get enough of the object one is infatuated with.
This is all about psychology and that can be cured, note the similar elements;
https://www.psychologytoday.com/arti...01501/obsessed
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-first-moments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction_psychology


Note the OP 'Islam-in-part Bashes Non-Muslims
Islam-in-part Bashes Non-Muslims.
See attached below, a sample of verses condemning non-Muslims in the worst terms.

With the above it is most likely 80% of people on Earth will be not only bored but will be put off and be offended when the read the Quran.
I think this copy paste job is too boring now.

It's not only me, the "religious bug" has infected 1.5 billion people - and it's spreading.

You need to worry and speed up your efforts on the Internet to do something about it. Simple copy paste job won't do.
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Old 08-02-2015, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
I think this copy paste job is too boring now.

It's not only me, the "religious bug" has infected 1.5 billion people - and it's spreading.

You need to worry and speed up your efforts on the Internet to do something about it. Simple copy paste job won't do.
Yes, it is spreading and especially in China -ex communist country with 1.0 billion potential infections [out of 1.2 billion people] will likely to be infected by the Christianity bug [luckily].

Like the plague, ebola, and others, humanity will have the capability to exterminate or keep these infections in check.
It is the same for religiosity. Religiosity will increase from now because of the inherent unavoidable ED, but it will peak as humans evolve in time. Then net-negative religiosity will regress to be replaced by net-positive spirituality in the future - I am very certain of that.

Don't worry the religious bug will be in you till heaven's gate, but it will surely be eliminated within your later generations along with the current trend of the exponential expansion of knowledge and technology.
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Old 08-06-2015, 02:42 PM
 
1,244 posts, read 711,399 times
Reputation: 1201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If Allah is omnipotent, Allah could easily assist Muhammad to produce miracles like those of Jesus, Moses, Noah and other prophets to settle the issue.
Could someone quote the verse relative to the miracles assisting Noah. I do not recall this passage in the Bible.

Quran 54/1-2
Quote:
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split.
(The polytheists said) “If you truly are a Prophet that has been appointed by Allah, then split the moon in half. Let it be in such a way that one half will appear over the Mount Abu Qubais and the other half will be seen over Mount Quayqian.”

The prophet Muhammad (PBUH) asked:

“If I do it, will you become Muslims?”

The polytheists answered:

“Yes, we will.”


A common deceptive statement used by the enemies of Islam, those who will surely lose unless Allah guides them, is that the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him was not assisted with miracles when in fact he was assisted with many including one the most spectacular of miracles ever produced : the splitting of the moon. If that isn't a miracle, I don't know what is.

Not only was he assisted with miracles but his companions were also assisted with miracles even after he departed from this world. The list is exhaustive but I will provide a link to some examples.

Last edited by Sorel36; 08-06-2015 at 02:54 PM..
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