U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-30-2015, 01:52 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Often Muslims will challenge non-Muslims to produce 10 chapters like the Quran.
This is a very silly challenge.
The point is what is most critical in any religious texts are the main principles. The forms and format the principles are presented maybe useful but they are not of the highest priority and criticalness.

Most of the principles in the Quran are very kindergarten/lower-grade-school in contrast the PhD materials from the main Eastern religions.
Because the main Eastern religions has a range up to PhD levels they would automatically cover the kindergarten/lower-grade-school stuff that the Quran covered.

Comparatively:
Quran..... = Kindergarten + lower-grade-school
E Religion = Kindergarten + lower-grade-school + college/graduate + post-grad PhD

From the above comparison the main Eastern religion philosophies and principles has the additional spiritual material from 'graduate' and 'PhD' levels.

Thus when a Muslim challenge a non-Muslim to produce something like the Quran, they are like a lower-grade-school student who know basic physics and trying to challenge Einstein on the subject of Physics!

In rare exceptions there are Muslims who are progressive in spirituality, e.g. the Sufis, Mutzalites, and others who compromise the Quran but they are considered to be heretics by the majority of Muslims who conforms strictly to the Quran and its related texts.


Here is one typical challenge [of false impression, ignorance and hopes] I get from Muslims posters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.
Brother Continuum, I still don't see your point in all of this complaining about the Noble Qur'an.

First of all, the Qur'an challenges those who are in disagreement with its Truth, to write ten chapters like it. Or, even one chapter.
And declares that you will never do it, even if you call on all of your associates, to help you (my interpretation).
Here are a sample [there are many others] of 10 chapters of higher spirituality from the Tao Te Ching to show there is no need for it to be the same as the Quran because the knowledge from the Tao Te Ching is way beyond what the Quran itself can offer.
Chapter 1
The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders
Chapter 2
When the world knows beauty as beauty, ugliness arises
When it knows good as good, evil arises
Thus being and non-being produce each other
Difficult and easy bring about each other
Long and short reveal each other
High and low support each other
Music and voice harmonize each other
Front and back follow each other
Therefore the sages:
Manage the work of detached actions
Conduct the teaching of no words
They work with myriad things but do not control
They create but do not possess
They act but do not presume
They succeed but do not dwell on success
It is because they do not dwell on success
That it never goes away
Chapter 3
Do not glorify the achievers
So the people will not squabble
Do not treasure goods that are hard to obtain
So the people will not become thieves
Do not show the desired things
So their hearts will not be confused
Thus the governance of the sage:
Empties their hearts
Fills their bellies
Weakens their ambitions
Strengthens their bones
Let the people have no cunning and no greed
So those who scheme will not dare to meddle
Act without contrivance
And nothing will be beyond control
Chapter 4
The Tao is empty
When utilized, it is not filled up
So deep! It seems to be the source of all things
It blunts the sharpness
Unravels the knots
Dims the glare
Mixes the dusts
So indistinct! It seems to exist
I do not know whose offspring it is
Its image is the predecessor of the Emperor
Chapter 5
Heaven and Earth are impartial
They regard myriad things as straw dogs
The sages are impartial
They regard people as straw dogs
The space between Heaven and Earth
Is it not like a bellows?
Empty, and yet never exhausted
It moves, and produces more
Too many words hasten failure
Cannot compare to keeping to the void
Chapter 6
The valley spirit, undying
Is called the Mystic Female
The gate of the Mystic Female
Is called the root of Heaven and Earth
It flows continuously, barely perceptible
Utilize it; it is never exhausted
Chapter 7
Heaven and Earth are everlasting
The reason Heaven and Earth can last forever
Is that they do not exist for themselves
Thus they can last forever
Therefore the sages:
Place themselves last but end up in front
Are outside of themselves and yet survive
Is it not due to their selflessness?
That is how they can achieve their own goals
Chapter 8
The highest goodness resembles water
Water greatly benefits myriad things without contention
It stays in places that people dislike
Therefore it is similar to the Tao
Dwelling with the right location
Feeling with great depth
Giving with great kindness
Speaking with great integrity
Governing with great administration
Handling with great capability
Moving with great timing
Because it does not contend
It is therefore beyond reproach
Chapter 9
Holding a cup and overfilling it
Cannot be as good as stopping short
Pounding a blade and sharpening it
Cannot be kept for long
Gold and jade fill up the room
No one is able to protect them
Wealth and position bring arrogance
And leave disasters upon oneself
When achievement is completed, fame is attained
Withdraw oneself
This is the Tao of Heaven
Chapter 10
In holding the soul and embracing oneness
Can one be steadfast, without straying?
In concentrating the energy and reaching relaxation
Can one be like an infant?
In cleaning away the worldly view
Can one be without imperfections?
In loving the people and ruling the nation
Can one be without manipulation?
In the heavenly gate's opening and closing
Can one hold to the feminine principle?
In understanding clearly all directions
Can one be without intellectuality?
Bearing it, rearing it
Bearing without possession
Achieving without arrogance
Raising without domination
This is called the Mystic Virtue

Accurate Translation of the Tao Te Ching
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-30-2015, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Often Muslims will challenge non-Muslims to produce 10 chapters like the Quran.
This is a very silly challenge.
The point is what is most critical in any religious texts are the main principles. The forms and format the principles are presented maybe useful but they are not of the highest priority and criticalness.

Most of the principles in the Quran are very kindergarten/lower-grade-school in contrast the PhD materials from the main Eastern religions.
Because the main Eastern religions has a range up to PhD levels they would automatically cover the kindergarten/lower-grade-school stuff that the Quran covered.

Comparatively:
Quran..... = Kindergarten + lower-grade-school
E Religion = Kindergarten + lower-grade-school + college/graduate + post-grad PhD

From the above comparison the main Eastern religion philosophies and principles has the additional spiritual material from 'graduate' and 'PhD' levels.

Thus when a Muslim challenge a non-Muslim to produce something like the Quran, they are like a lower-grade-school student who know basic physics and trying to challenge Einstein on the subject of Physics!

In rare exceptions there are Muslims who are progressive in spirituality, e.g. the Sufis, Mutzalites, and others who compromise the Quran but they are considered to be heretics by the majority of Muslims who conforms strictly to the Quran and its related texts.


Here is one typical challenge [of false impression, ignorance and hopes] I get from Muslims posters.



Here are a sample [there are many others] of 10 chapters of higher spirituality from the Tao Te Ching to show there is no need for it to be the same as the Quran because the knowledge from the Tao Te Ching is way beyond what the Quran itself can offer.
Chapter 1
The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders
Chapter 2
When the world knows beauty as beauty, ugliness arises
When it knows good as good, evil arises
Thus being and non-being produce each other
Difficult and easy bring about each other
Long and short reveal each other
High and low support each other
Music and voice harmonize each other
Front and back follow each other
Therefore the sages:
Manage the work of detached actions
Conduct the teaching of no words
They work with myriad things but do not control
They create but do not possess
They act but do not presume
They succeed but do not dwell on success
It is because they do not dwell on success
That it never goes away
Chapter 3
Do not glorify the achievers
So the people will not squabble
Do not treasure goods that are hard to obtain
So the people will not become thieves
Do not show the desired things
So their hearts will not be confused
Thus the governance of the sage:
Empties their hearts
Fills their bellies
Weakens their ambitions
Strengthens their bones
Let the people have no cunning and no greed
So those who scheme will not dare to meddle
Act without contrivance
And nothing will be beyond control
Chapter 4
The Tao is empty
When utilized, it is not filled up
So deep! It seems to be the source of all things
It blunts the sharpness
Unravels the knots
Dims the glare
Mixes the dusts
So indistinct! It seems to exist
I do not know whose offspring it is
Its image is the predecessor of the Emperor
Chapter 5
Heaven and Earth are impartial
They regard myriad things as straw dogs
The sages are impartial
They regard people as straw dogs
The space between Heaven and Earth
Is it not like a bellows?
Empty, and yet never exhausted
It moves, and produces more
Too many words hasten failure
Cannot compare to keeping to the void
Chapter 6
The valley spirit, undying
Is called the Mystic Female
The gate of the Mystic Female
Is called the root of Heaven and Earth
It flows continuously, barely perceptible
Utilize it; it is never exhausted
Chapter 7
Heaven and Earth are everlasting
The reason Heaven and Earth can last forever
Is that they do not exist for themselves
Thus they can last forever
Therefore the sages:
Place themselves last but end up in front
Are outside of themselves and yet survive
Is it not due to their selflessness?
That is how they can achieve their own goals
Chapter 8
The highest goodness resembles water
Water greatly benefits myriad things without contention
It stays in places that people dislike
Therefore it is similar to the Tao
Dwelling with the right location
Feeling with great depth
Giving with great kindness
Speaking with great integrity
Governing with great administration
Handling with great capability
Moving with great timing
Because it does not contend
It is therefore beyond reproach
Chapter 9
Holding a cup and overfilling it
Cannot be as good as stopping short
Pounding a blade and sharpening it
Cannot be kept for long
Gold and jade fill up the room
No one is able to protect them
Wealth and position bring arrogance
And leave disasters upon oneself
When achievement is completed, fame is attained
Withdraw oneself
This is the Tao of Heaven
Chapter 10
In holding the soul and embracing oneness
Can one be steadfast, without straying?
In concentrating the energy and reaching relaxation
Can one be like an infant?
In cleaning away the worldly view
Can one be without imperfections?
In loving the people and ruling the nation
Can one be without manipulation?
In the heavenly gate's opening and closing
Can one hold to the feminine principle?
In understanding clearly all directions
Can one be without intellectuality?
Bearing it, rearing it
Bearing without possession
Achieving without arrogance
Raising without domination
This is called the Mystic Virtue

Accurate Translation of the Tao Te Ching
Here is the point you are missing.

The challenge is to write it in the Tajweed of Qur'anic Arabic. You can not translate the Tao te Ching into Qur'anic Arabic.

Qur'anic Arabic is not like any Earthly Language. Although it is understood by Arabic Speakers
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2015, 07:21 AM
 
39,041 posts, read 10,831,421 times
Reputation: 5082
Similar claims can be made about the English of Shakespeare or the KJV. It is easy for Muslims to make exaggerated claims for the ineffable qualities of the Quran writing. Even if some of us were expert in reading it, if we said that it was nothing that could not have been written by men using the best poets they had available, we would run into denial and be told that we were refusing to see the sheer divine qualities of it.

What impresses us more is absurd claims about a fly having the sickness on one wing and the cure on another or false claims about fresh water flowing through salt. In the face of such error, claims about the poetic language in which it was written (at some time or another) are irrelevant.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2015, 11:09 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,187 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Similar claims can be made about the English of Shakespeare or the KJV. It is easy for Muslims to make exaggerated claims for the ineffable qualities of the Quran writing. Even if some of us were expert in reading it, if we said that it was nothing that could not have been written by men using the best poets they had available, we would run into denial and be told that we were refusing to see the sheer divine qualities of it.

What impresses us more is absurd claims about a fly having the sickness on one wing and the cure on another or false claims about fresh water flowing through salt. In the face of such error, claims about the poetic language in which it was written (at some time or another) are irrelevant.

AREQUIPA, why will you not prove what you say by writing ten chapters like it, Or, even one chapter. Fact is you cannot do it. Call on your helpers too, if you must!



2:126 And when Abraham said, ‘My Lord, make this a secure town, and provide its people with fruits — such of them as have faith in Allah and the Last Day,’ He said, ‘As for him who is faithless, I will provide for him [too] for a short time, then I will shove him toward the punishment of the Fire, and it is an evil destination.’




Wa salaam. devotee
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2015, 11:44 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,187 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.




Quote:
Here are a sample [there are many others] of 10 chapters of higher spirituality from the Tao Te Ching to show there is no need for it to be the same as the Quran because the knowledge from the Tao Te Ching is way beyond what the Quran itself can offer.
But, this Tao Te Ching, speaks of a heaven. You didn't mention that it was sent by Allaah (SWT). It appears to be from the mind of man! It is common sense prose. It speaks of water being weak. Where will one find a weak Tsunami? With due respect, the same can be said of air.


Chapter 77

The Tao of Heaven
Is like drawing a bow
Lower that which is high
Raise that which is low
Reduce that which has excess
Add to that which is lacking

The Tao of heaven
Reduces the excessive
And adds to the lacking

The Tao of people is not so
It reduces the lacking
In order to offer to the excessive

Who can offer their excess to the world?
Only those who have the Tao
Therefore sages act without conceit
Achieve without claiming credit
They do not wish to display their virtue!


Chapter 78

Nothing in the world is softer or weaker than water
Yet nothing is better at overcoming the hard and strong
This is because nothing can replace it

That the weak overcomes the strong
And the soft overcomes the hard
Everybody in the world knows
But cannot put into practice

Therefore sages say:
The one who accepts the humiliation of the state
Is called its master
The one who accepts the misfortune of the state
Becomes king of the world
The truth seems like the opposite


Tao Te Ching ~ Chapters 77-78




Wassalaam. devotee
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2015, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Here is the point you are missing.

The challenge is to write it in the Tajweed of Qur'anic Arabic. You can not translate the Tao te Ching into Qur'anic Arabic.

Qur'anic Arabic is not like any Earthly Language. Although it is understood by Arabic Speakers
This is a very flimsy counter.
The Taoist can also challenge you to write 10 chapters in original Chinese. [note the original scripts of the Chinese language]. You cannot translate the original Tao te Ching into Quranic Arabic.

The point as I have argued, it is very intellectual immature to challenge one to repeat based on forms which can be very complex. It is impossible to repeat and replicate something that is complex at the levels of form.
However what is critical is we should deliberate on the matter of 'principles.'

The Quran is based on very kindergarten principles and false/illusory principles [e.g. God exists].
The basic principles of the Quran is so easy, i.e.
1. You will die and will be tortured in hell on Judgment day [Quran 1:4]
2. God is great, all powerful and a supreme creator - [1:2]
3. Only the all powerful God can give eternal life in heaven. [Various verses]
4. Therefore one must believe in God [Allah], then God is merciful [1:1, 3].

God promise salvation to eternal life to Muslims.
But the fact is God do not exists.
So the promise of salvation is groundless and fake.
The Quran cannot be from God,
Why I should I bother to replicate something that is false.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2015, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.

But, this Tao Te Ching, speaks of a heaven. You didn't mention that it was sent by Allaah (SWT). It appears to be from the mind of man! It is common sense prose. It speaks of water being weak. Where will one find a weak Tsunami? With due respect, the same can be said of air.
Yes! it is written by a man or compiled by a group of humans not any God.
Why should I mention God when God do not exists.
Prove God exists to support your claim.

What is written in the Tao Te Ching is allegorical not facts and the writings are for humans to extract principles as a guide to one life.

Muslims challenge any one to write 10 chapters like the Quran.
What I have presented here is 10 chapters of the Tao Te Ching and I am claiming it is 100++ times better than what is from the Quran.

My point is, to claim that no one can write something like the Quran is Childish intellectuality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-31-2015, 06:06 AM
 
39,041 posts, read 10,831,421 times
Reputation: 5082
I have told you why. There are a LOT of books I could not write 10 chapters of. I doubt that you could write even ONE chapter of the books I am working on. That proves nothing. It is foolish to suggest that because you could never write 10 episodes of Star -trek that makes it true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.






AREQUIPA, why will you not prove what you say by writing ten chapters like it, Or, even one chapter. Fact is you cannot do it. Call on your helpers too, if you must!



2:126 And when Abraham said, ‘My Lord, make this a secure town, and provide its people with fruits — such of them as have faith in Allah and the Last Day,’ He said, ‘As for him who is faithless, I will provide for him [too] for a short time, then I will shove him toward the punishment of the Fire, and it is an evil destination.’




Wa salaam. devotee
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-31-2015, 07:48 AM
 
39,041 posts, read 10,831,421 times
Reputation: 5082
Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.






But, this Tao Te Ching, speaks of a heaven. You didn't mention that it was sent by Allaah (SWT). It appears to be from the mind of man! It is common sense prose. It speaks of water being weak. Where will one find a weak Tsunami? With due respect, the same can be said of air.


Chapter 77

The Tao of Heaven
Is like drawing a bow
Lower that which is high
Raise that which is low
Reduce that which has excess
Add to that which is lacking

The Tao of heaven
Reduces the excessive
And adds to the lacking

The Tao of people is not so
It reduces the lacking
In order to offer to the excessive

Who can offer their excess to the world?
Only those who have the Tao
Therefore sages act without conceit
Achieve without claiming credit
They do not wish to display their virtue!


Chapter 78

Nothing in the world is softer or weaker than water
Yet nothing is better at overcoming the hard and strong
This is because nothing can replace it

That the weak overcomes the strong
And the soft overcomes the hard
Everybody in the world knows
But cannot put into practice

Therefore sages say:
The one who accepts the humiliation of the state
Is called its master
The one who accepts the misfortune of the state
Becomes king of the world
The truth seems like the opposite


Tao Te Ching ~ Chapters 77-78




Wassalaam. devotee
Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.






AREQUIPA, why will you not prove what you say by writing ten chapters like it, Or, even one chapter. Fact is you cannot do it. Call on your helpers too, if you must!...

It is pointless to point out that Taoism speaks of heaven but not that it was sent by Allah. The Quran speaks of heaven but does not say that it was sent by the Tao. Faith -claims get you nowhere.

Now this 'write something like the Quran' challenge is a swindle. It is made to look like a sort of reversed proof of Islam by telling us how to disprove it - but in such a difficult way that you can bet nobody would be able to do it.

I have come across a similar 'disprove us' challenge before and pardon me for referring to the Bible. It was 'Atheists can disprove the Bible by rebuilding Tyre'. The challenge went on to give the game away by saying: 'They know they cannot do it'. Which shows that they are pretty confident that this is unlikely to be a challenge that anyone will take up.

And if they did go and rebuild Tyre. Well, I know what would happen because a senior poster here said it when it was pointed out that Tyre WAS rebuilt

"It is not the original Tyre."

In other words, the goalposts would be moved. So, even if I were to master the Arabic of the Quran and wrote 10 chapters just as good I would be told that they in no way compared with the divine qualities of the original.

Let me tell you how you can prove Islam to be true. Write 10 posts like mine. If you can't, it proves by default that atheism is true.

And if you did write 10 posts in my style, I could just claim that they were not 'really' like mine.

You see what I mean when I say that your challenge is a swindle?

Now I know that this is not going to make any difference to your faith or LI's, for that matter. Nor is it intended to. This is just to put you on notice that polemic tricks of that kind are not going to fool us into crediting Islam as anything more than just another religion. And one that comes quite a way down the list of those that appeal to me.

I still luv it here.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-31-2015 at 08:47 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-31-2015, 09:30 AM
 
646 posts, read 345,676 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Qur'anic Arabic is not like any Earthly Language. Although it is understood by Arabic Speakers
What does that mean? If I make up my own fantasy language that is similar to say, Spanish, it is "not like any earthly language" but will be understood by Spanish speakers.

What exactly do you mean when you say it is not "like any Earthly Language?"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top