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Old 08-07-2015, 12:38 AM
 
1,244 posts, read 710,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

Your accusation of others relying on bad faith is purely due to a maligned personal psychology arising an inherent existential dilemma.
When you compare religion to a virus and a bug, you have already established your bad faith. You are not here to have a discussion, you are here to have a fight. I don't even deem necessary to reply to your accusations and distortions.
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Old 08-07-2015, 12:49 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
When you compare religion to a virus and a bug, you have already established your bad faith. You are not here to have a discussion, you are here to have a fight. I don't even deem necessary to reply to your accusations and distortions.
Note I have always asserted,
'ALL [me included] humans are 'infected' with an inherent unavoidable existential dilemma.' To resolve the related psychological angst the majority resort to religions as a 'balm.'
This is not bad faith but a fact of life.
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Old 08-07-2015, 02:26 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,743,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
This might be true in your native language, but is not in true others. My native language is french and "we" may be used by an individual to signify his greatness. An arabic speaker provided us with an example of how "we" can be used in his language by a ruler.

Unless you master the arabic grammar it may be wise not to comment on this topic.



Is this a rabbinic interpretation or is it your personal interpretation ? What I gave was a rabbinic explanation of the word Elohim.
Unless you master history and logical reasoning, you will have no idea why grammar is the way it is. The fact that the majority of people involved in your native language and the Arab language forgot the reason they use the plural in the first place (to designate when someone is making a decision for a plurality) and changed adpopulum to mean that the individual is simply highlighting his greatness only and disregarding the involvement of others (as Kings and Queens often did anyway because of their grandiose pretensions) is of no concern to the reality, nor to me. It is clear, in history, that Fascist Kings since ancient times abused the plural to create a sort of "forbidden pronoun" for themselves...

But the Arabs (or a few others) might sometimes use the dual "Both" instead of the plural "We" to signify that they are in allegiance with Allah (as the Quran) just like King Henry in England insisted for his introduction of the royal "we" in English.

Gabriel "Jibril" uses "we" because he is a part of the Fascist Heavenly Army
Allah uses "we" because He decides for all of His Fascist Heavenly Army
I use "we" because I am speaking for a plurality, and we wouldn't want confusion, would we?

Elohim was the word that the Canaanites used to designate their Heavenly Pantheon, and it is used in the oldest Abrahamic scriptures to also denote the plurality of other entities who are not Yahweh.

The reason Genesis has Elohim is because the Divine (as a group) have already been created, hence why their creation (the slave-gods called angels) is not explained.

The Zoroastrian-influenced Jews likely introduced fascist monotheism to what was left in Israel (many illiterate Israelites who sit in a strategic position). Before that they had El, his wife, and his free-children angels and so did the Babylonians.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 08-07-2015 at 03:11 AM..
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Old 08-07-2015, 05:06 AM
 
1,244 posts, read 710,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Unless you master history and logical reasoning, you will have no idea why grammar is the way it is.
Please enlighten me on the subtleties of french grammar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Gabriel "Jibril" uses "we"
Quote the verse where he does. You will see he is not the one using "we", he is quoting God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post

Elohim was the word that the Canaanites used to designate their Heavenly Pantheon, and it is used in the oldest Abrahamic scriptures to also denote the plurality of other entities who are not Yahweh.
Provide your sources, such as hard cover books, not websites. This is supposed to be a serious forum, and here you are talking about the most random stuff like armies of fascist angels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
But the Arabs (or a few others) might sometimes use the dual "Both" instead of the plural "We" to signify that they are in allegiance with Allah (as the Quran)
This is false. There is not a single verse where this is the case, nor a single hadith.

I am still amazed that non arabic speakers would try to comment on an a book written in classical arabic. You would not be able to differentiate between Quran and Al Jazira. Obviously you have no business talking on this topic.

Last edited by Sorel36; 08-07-2015 at 05:18 AM..
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Old 08-09-2015, 12:08 AM
 
Location: quiet place
271 posts, read 214,584 times
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Here is an advice when someone is looking for a specific information on religion, It is recommended that to take into consideration that most of the religions stand on logical or insofar acceptable ideas to their followers, what we do here is to discuss to improve our understanding for domestic and foreign cults. As Muslim, I wish every body to be a Muslim one day I also believe that you feel the same. Islam however is not separable from Christianity or Judaism. All Muslims believe that Islam came to return people to Monotheism which as you know has been violated. Muslims' faith stated that Muslims can not be considered or called Muslim unless he/she believe in 1- God (Allah) 2- God's Angels 3- God's Messengers( Noa, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and other unnamed) 4- God's Books( Revelation) 5- the day after( Resurrection) 6- the Destiny.

Verses from Quran on Monotheism
chapter 17, verses from 37-43

" And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart - about all those [one] will be questioned.
:37

And do not walk upon the earth exultantly. Indeed, you will never tear the earth [apart], and you will never reach the mountains in height.
:38
All that - its evil is ever, in the sight of your Lord, detested.

:39
That is from what your Lord has revealed to you, [O Muhammad], of wisdom. And, [O mankind], do not make [as equal] with Allah another deity, lest you be thrown into Hell, blamed and banished.
40
Then, has your Lord chosen you for [having] sons and taken from among the angels daughters? Indeed, you say a grave saying.
41
And We have certainly diversified [the contents] in this Qur'an that mankind may be reminded, but it does not increase the disbelievers except in aversion.
42
Say, [O Muhammad], "If there had been with Him [other] gods, as they say, then they [each] would have sought to the Owner of the Throne a way."
43
Exalted is He and high above what they say by great sublimity.

Other verses from Chapter 21
26
" And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, they are [but] honored servants.
They cannot precede Him in word, and they act by His command.
27
He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they cannot intercede except on behalf of one whom He approves. And they, from fear of Him, are apprehensive.
28
And whoever of them should say, "Indeed, I am a god besides Him"- that one We would recompense with Hell. Thus do We recompense the wrongdoers.
30
Have those who disbelieved not considered that *the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?"

* a hint to Big Bang.
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Old 08-14-2015, 10:30 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,743,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Please enlighten me on the subtleties of french grammar.
No need to educate you for free, you can do it yourself, the reason that the royal we developed in France is clear, and the reason it ended is clear also. It denoted that the person in power using it was “not alone.” Or do you have a better alternative reason of why it developed?

Quote:
Quote the verse where he does. You will see he is not the one using "we", he is quoting God.
Provide your sources, such as hard cover books, not websites.
Why? What would it logically support either way? I was merely citing the example of why beings use “we” and its to denote plurality (not necessarily of themselves, but of their group) not simply to outline royalty or high status. But as it is, language changes based on the usage of its people. You would have to prove that Allah has no other beings agreeing with him (on his side) and that the “royal we” in a disregarding others sense was used during the rise of the first French usage of it and the first Arab or Neo-Arab Quranic usage of it (Which isn’t impossible if ancient cities were using a form of the royal we disregarding the supporters of the subject).

Quote:
This is supposed to be a serious forum, and here you are talking about the most random stuff like armies of fascist angels.
That response doesn’t seem academically serious, just seriously biased and unthoughtful. The heavenly fascism and the complete loyalty of the angels "currently in heaven" (always loyal in Islam) is the most pertinent psychological part of anti-polytheistic religions trying to unify people under the "1 best leader".
Quote:
This is false. There is not a single verse where this is the case, nor a single hadith.
False? You must have full knowledge of everything to make a statement like that. Or a lot of pride and verbosity. Read a history book quoting some Arab Muslim or another, some have indeed used the word for “Both” (an) instead of “We” to denote their decisions.
It wasn’t a religiously-bowed-to verse but a royal order, I can’t find it now (spent 15 searching for it) but I’m sure I read it earlier. If not or it was faulty, then you might be right, again it wouldn't logically support anything either way.
Quote:
I am still amazed that non arabic speakers would try to comment on an a book written in classical arabic. You would not be able to differentiate between Quran and Al Jazira. Obviously you have no business talking on this topic.
Why would “classical Arabic” use the royal plural as Egyptian “modern Arabic” might? To denote loneliness and singularity in a confusing way? No, the Quran uses the plural because Genesis uses plural, and in both it is clearly understood that the Angels and The Only Single God stand together in their meaningless and wasteful warring host. The Ancient Hebrews and Canaanites didn't have the royal we, according to one researcher whose comment I read once.

Your scholars might find proof that Allah's "royal plural" disregards the existence and agreement of all of Heaven, I'll wait patiently.
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Old 08-14-2015, 11:24 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,612 times
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"I am still amazed that non arabic speakers would try to comment on an a book written in classical arabic."

I am still amazed that Muslims think that a supernatural being with the power to CREATE THE UNIVERSE would write a book hardly anyone can understand! It is practically untranslatable according to Muslims. It is full of contradictions and mistakes and confusion. Why doesn't this super being with power beyond imagination send down a book that we can all easily understand and gets rid of all the repetition and mistakes and contradictions and silly verses? Maybe get rid of all that stuff about menstruation and slavery and hate and terrorism and replace it with a cure for cancer and some demands for peace and productivity and integrity and rationality and justice and proper science instead of endless threats and nonsense. Maybe give some advice on how Muslim countries can pull themselves out of the dark ages and stop slaughtering each other.

Better yet, download it to our iphones.

By the way,

Classic Muslim Excuses (or Can the Quran Be Understood by non-Arabic Scholars?)
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Old 08-15-2015, 01:06 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Like many languages including English and Arabic there is the concept of the Royal We were we is a singularity and not a pluaral. It is used in Hebrew and Christian scripture and legal documents by a person of Authority.
I confirm this; it is the Royal We.
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Old 08-15-2015, 01:28 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,302 times
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Some try deliberately to stir doubts about the Quran:

E.g. the aya 17: 110
[The reason for revealing the following aya:]
[One night in Mecca, the Prophet – salam to him – said in his prayer: “O God Most Gracious, O Most Merciful!”
And the associaters said: “This one claims he has one god, and now he calls two!”
Therefore, this aya was revealed, which means:]


110. Say: "Call upon God, or call upon the Most Gracious; whichsoever you call upon; to Him belong the Names Most Beautiful." a
----------------------------------------------------------
a It means: the Creator is One, and His names are many, and all of such names are His beautiful attributes.

The interpretation is according to the late Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, the inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible.
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Old 08-15-2015, 03:14 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,612 times
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Some try deliberately to stir doubts about Scientology:

"In Scientology, the concept of God is expressed as the Eighth Dynamic—the urge toward existence as infinity. This is also identified as the Supreme Being. As the Eighth Dynamic, the Scientology concept of God rests at the very apex of universal survival. As L. Ron Hubbard wrote in Science of Survival:

“No culture in the history of the world, save the thoroughly depraved and expiring ones, has failed to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being. It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical and less valuable to themselves and society....A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.”

Unlike Islam, the Church of Scientology has no set dogma concerning God that it imposes on its members. As with all its tenets, Scientology does not ask individuals to accept anything on faith alone. Rather, as one’s level of spiritual awareness increases through participation in Scientology auditing and training, one attains his own certainty of every dynamic. Accordingly, only when the Seventh Dynamic (spiritual) is reached in its entirety will one discover and come to a full understanding of the Eighth Dynamic (infinity) and one’s relationship to the Supreme Being." a

a Obviously Scientology has far surpassed Islam and has identified the Eighth Dynamic (infinity) and one’s relationship to the Supreme Being, which Islam was unable to do.
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