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Old 08-15-2015, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
I am still amazed that non arabic speakers would try to comment on an a book written in classical arabic. You would not be able to differentiate between Quran and Al Jazira. Obviously you have no business talking on this topic.
It is unfortunate I raised a new topic to find out what non-Muslims readers will missed out if they do not read the Quran in original Arabic or even Modern Standard Arabic, but was asked to raise the point here.
This OP is specific to why "we" when Allah claimed not to have partners which has not direct link to my intended question.

Here is my point;
Personally, my view is a well-read person with eclectic interests [equipped with secular, religious and spiritual principles] can easily understand all major principles and doctrines in the Quran. There is nothing so special, mysterious and complex that a reasonable educated person can missed out from reading the Quran.

In addition, there it is obvious, it is not easy for a well read average Joe to understand all of Quantum Mechanics if s/he is not specialize in that subject. The average spiritual person will have problems understanding the PhD materials of the Eastern religions regardless of whether they are readers of the original texts or translated texts.

My point is;
It is not a question of reading the texts in original Arabic or any other original language in relation to a holy texts, i.e. be it Quran, Torah, Bible, Buddhist sutras, etc.
What is essential is the average intelligence [IQ] and wisdom [WQ] of the person plus his/her level of spiritual intelligence [SQ], and other relevant faculties, e.g. rationality, objectivity, critical thinking, problem solving skills, etc.

Muslim Islamic Scholar are inherently Bias;
Muslim Islamic Scholars has a vested interest to secure their existential threat, thus they will be most likely to be bias [confirmation bias, unattentive bias, innoculation theory {Woodrow mentioned this}, etc.] to ensure the Quran is interpreted to ease their psychological pains.

My question to Muslims is:
Assuming "we" are of people with average competency of knowledge with a wide range of knowledge;
If we rely on the various English translations of the Quran [after all most are from reputable scholars of Islam], what will we, non-Arabic readers, missed out?
What principles from the Quran will we missed out?
What is that we non-Arabic readers will not be able to understand in the Quran?
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Old 08-15-2015, 11:56 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,323,236 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is unfortunate I raised a new topic to find out what non-Muslims readers will missed out if they do not read the Quran in original Arabic or even Modern Standard Arabic, but was asked to raise the point here.
This OP is specific to why "we" when Allah claimed not to have partners which has not direct link to my intended question.

Here is my point;
Personally, my view is a well-read person with eclectic interests [equipped with secular, religious and spiritual principles] can easily understand all major principles and doctrines in the Quran. There is nothing so special, mysterious and complex that a reasonable educated person can missed out from reading the Quran.

In addition, there it is obvious, it is not easy for a well read average Joe to understand all of Quantum Mechanics if s/he is not specialize in that subject. The average spiritual person will have problems understanding the PhD materials of the Eastern religions regardless of whether they are readers of the original texts or translated texts.

My point is;
It is not a question of reading the texts in original Arabic or any other original language in relation to a holy texts, i.e. be it Quran, Torah, Bible, Buddhist sutras, etc.
What is essential is the average intelligence [IQ] and wisdom [WQ] of the person plus his/her level of spiritual intelligence [SQ], and other relevant faculties, e.g. rationality, objectivity, critical thinking, problem solving skills, etc.

Muslim Islamic Scholar are inherently Bias;
Muslim Islamic Scholars has a vested interest to secure their existential threat, thus they will be most likely to be bias [confirmation bias, unattentive bias, innoculation theory {Woodrow mentioned this}, etc.] to ensure the Quran is interpreted to ease their psychological pains.

My question to Muslims is:
Assuming "we" are of people with average competency of knowledge with a wide range of knowledge;
If we rely on the various English translations of the Quran [after all most are from reputable scholars of Islam], what will we, non-Arabic readers, missed out?
What principles from the Quran will we missed out?
What is that we non-Arabic readers will not be able to understand in the Quran?

attempting to answer this:

Quote:
My question to Muslims is:
Assuming "we" are of people with average competency of knowledge with a wide range of knowledge;
If we rely on the various English translations of the Quran [after all most are from reputable scholars of Islam], what will we, non-Arabic readers, missed out?
What principles from the Quran will we missed out?
What is that we non-Arabic readers will not be able to understand in the Quran?
I will agree that by reading the available translations it is possible to understand the Qur'an as well as many, perhaps most, of the world's Muslims. However much of the beauty of the Qur'anic tajweed is missed when one does not comprehend the Arabic. It is like looking at Monet's "Givenchy Garden Series" without a knowledge of pointillism. One can appreciate the paintings, but they miss much of the subtleties

The biggest problem I see is that some of those who do not comprehend the Arabic miss seeing the Qur'an as being the Why of Islam and assume it is the teaching manual of Islam.

The Qur'an is not a text book of how to Practice Islam. A Qur'anie (Quran only Muslim) misses very much of what Islam is.

Things you will not learn from the Qur'an

How to pray
What the 5 pillers of Islam are
Islamic Jurisprudence--The commands of Islam
The 6 fundamental beliefs of Islam
What a Muslim is
How to become a Muslim.
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Old 08-16-2015, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
attempting to answer this:

I will agree that by reading the available translations it is possible to understand the Qur'an as well as many, perhaps most, of the world's Muslims. However much of the beauty of the Qur'anic tajweed is missed when one does not comprehend the Arabic. It is like looking at Monet's "Givenchy Garden Series" without a knowledge of pointillism. One can appreciate the paintings, but they miss much of the subtleties

The biggest problem I see is that some of those who do not comprehend the Arabic miss seeing the Qur'an as being the Why of Islam and assume it is the teaching manual of Islam.

The Qur'an is not a text book of how to Practice Islam. A Qur'anie (Quran only Muslim) misses very much of what Islam is.

Things you will not learn from the Qur'an

How to pray
What the 5 pillers of Islam are
Islamic Jurisprudence--The commands of Islam
The 6 fundamental beliefs of Islam
What a Muslim is
How to become a Muslim.
Note: By responding to my own questions and your response we are in fact hijacking the thread and going off topic. This is why I raised a separate thread to deal with this, i.e. Quran Classical Arabic -What can be Missed Out? but .... I will go along as I am not that pedantic.

I had mentioned before [umpteenth time].
There is the Generic Human Digestive System [GHDS], https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_digestive_system.
Once one understand the full substance, principles of the GHDS, one will be able to understand the Generic Human Digestive System [GHDS] no matter how diversified the forms [how food are processed and eaten] are.
Do you dispute his point? I don't believe you will dispute this point.

Now, there is also the Generic Human Spiritual System [GHSS].
Similarly, once one understand the full substance, principles of the GHDS, one will be able to understand the systems no matter how diversified the forms are.

The Qur'anic tajweed is merely a very fringe form of any Human Spiritual System. It is perhaps analogically compared to fine-dining. This is not a critical point at all in terms of the Generic Human Spiritual System.

Quote:
The biggest problem I see is that some of those who do not comprehend the Arabic
miss seeing the Qur'an as being the Why of Islam and assume it is the teaching
manual of Islam.
This is ridiculous, it is very simple to understand from the various English translation of the Quran to understand the Quran is not a detailed manual but rather it contained the main principles with examples and some instructions.

Quote:
The Qur'an is not a text book of how to Practice Islam. A Qur'anie (Quran only
Muslim) misses very much of what Islam is.
The Quran represent the core of Islam and contain all the principles that dictate what a Muslims should be. Therefore a 100% Muslims should comply with 100% of the principles in the Quran.

Things you will not learn from the Qur'an
1 How to pray
2. What the 5 pillers of Islam are
4. Islamic Jurisprudence--The commands of Islam
5. The 6 fundamental beliefs of Islam
6. What a Muslim is
7. How to become a Muslim.

Is that all?

I am very certain any Muslim can meet all principles related the above [1-7] points from the Quran.
Note Allah has asserted what is in the Quran is perfected and complete and no additions can be added to it.

The point is the a principles expected from 1-7 can be extracted from the Quran but what by the fallible Muslim must be qualified as s/he is not infallible Allah.

Note I can go into the details [especially 7. How to become a True Muslim. ] if this thread is reopened
Quran Classical Arabic -What can be Missed Out?
as since more details are involved, I do not prefer to hijack this thread [opened by me and I know what it should be intended for].
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Old 08-16-2015, 02:32 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,476 times
Reputation: 13
Do you speak badly about the Quran? And about the Islam?
By God, you only follow your falsehood, and you know it.

The Quran came to correct the previous books: the Torah and the Gospel, which have been distorted by men.
Moreover, your words are only some arranged and decorated words.
Relation of 'scientology' to science is only an assertion and it is a fallacy.
In addition, how can any reasonable man say that God does not exist, after he sees all this existence and the natural manifestation round about us, and the succession of the night and the day, and the harmony and system, and the perishing of generations one after another!

quran-ayat.com/conflicts/index.htm#preface
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Old 08-16-2015, 02:42 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,476 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My question to Muslims is:
Assuming "we" are of people with average competency of knowledge with a wide range of knowledge;
If we rely on the various English translations of the Quran [after all most are from reputable scholars of Islam], what will we, non-Arabic readers, missed out?
What principles from the Quran will we missed out?
What is that we non-Arabic readers will not be able to understand in the Quran?
The translations of the meaning of the Quran depends mainly on the understanding of the translator, and this principally depends on the interpretation and explanation of the Quran in Arabic.
Hence, if the translator does not understand the true meaning, how can he interpret it to foreigners?
And if he depends on wrong explanation, then his translation of the meaning will also be wrong.
For this reason, many of foreigners find the translations of the meaning of the Quran unsatisfactory and not understandable.

The Quran ayat or revelations can be divided into two categories:
The plain and the mysterious or ambiguous ayat.

Now a large part of the Quran is not understandable even to the Arab and Muslims, because such mystery has increased on account of the passing of time and the original language became more far; although the Quran preserved the Arabic language itself.

The translation which I depend on is by the late Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly: the inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible.

This interpretation is now refused by many Muslims.
Therefore, it will be the examination and trial of all nations: will they listen to new and clear interpretation that will make everything clear?

The following post will explain this meaning, according to the aya 3: 7

Last edited by roar; 08-16-2015 at 02:58 PM..
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Old 08-16-2015, 02:53 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,476 times
Reputation: 13
The aya 3: 7, which means:
The interpretation is according to the late Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, the inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible:

{3: 7. [God] is He Who has revealed to you [Mohammed] the Book [: the Quran] some of which being 'precise' ayat a; they are the essence of the Book, [whereas] others being 'analogous ' b.
So those, in whose hearts is a deviation [from the truth]; these follow the 'analogous' [ayat] therein c: seeking to seduce [people and turn them away d], and seeking to interpret it. e
But none but God [only] does know its interpretation f;
those – having sure knowledge – say: "We have believed in it g: each [of the 'precise' and the 'analogous'] being from our Lord. h "
Surely, none may accept admonition save men having discerning hearts.}
.................................................. ..............

a i.e. perfected in their words understandable in meaning, which are not mysterious to man.
b i.e. the ambiguous or allegorical ayat, which are ambiguous to man in meaning and implication.
c and take it as an argument to their falsehood.
d i.e. seeking to confound the weak among people to turn them back from the religion of the Islam: so they say to them: if this had been revealed from God, then it would have been plain and understandable; but these are the words of Mohammed which he said of his own accord.
e i.e. seeking after its meaning and interpretation, so they say:

"What is the meaning of His saying [in the Quran 2: 174
(they [will] eat in their bellies nothing but fire.)
So is the eating in the belly or by the mouth?

Moreover they say: what is the meaning of His saying [in the Quran 37: 64]
(It is a tree growing in the bottom of Hell.)
So how can any tree survive in the fire: living without burning!?"

And so on, they objected to the allegorical ambiguous ayat: denying them and mocking them, while the Prophet said to them: "As such has it been revealed."

And it is narrated that Abu Bakr asked the Prophet – salam to him – "Have you become grey-haired?" He answered: "This grey hair is because of such sooras (or chapters of the Quran) as chapter 81 (When the sun shall be 'divided into many spheres'.), and chapter 100 ([I swear] by that rushed forth, crying out!), and chapter 86 ([I swear] by the sky and [its] 'night visitant'!); and in another prophetic tradition, he said: "My hair has grown grey because of the chapter 11 and its adjacent chapters."

Therefore, God answered them:
f i.e. none knows the interpretation of the allegorical ambiguous ayat in the Quran and their implication, but only God alone; because the allegorical ambiguous ayat tell about the past, foretell about the future and explain about the ethereal world: the world of souls; for you did not attend the past in order to know it, neither the future to understand it, nor do you understand anything about the ethereal world, because you have not yet gone to it.

For the tree which is in the root of Hell is ethereal not material as do you imagine, and the ether does not burn even if it be in fire; and you have something like it which is the asbestos: it does not burn in fire whatever time it may be exposed to the fire.

While about the eating in the belly: you have something like it: the fetus in his mother's womb: he is nourished via the umbilical cord, and does not feed by his mouth; and as such the people of the fire, because they are ethereal spirits, the fire enters their interior from everywhere of their organs.

g even though we don't know its interpretation.
h Who revealed it to our prophet.
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Old 08-16-2015, 03:10 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,476 times
Reputation: 13
For more information put the following sentence in the search of Google:
<The Conflict between the Torah and the Quran >

Then from the table of Contents choose
A. The Abrogation
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Old 08-17-2015, 12:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,593,506 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
The translations of the meaning of the Quran depends mainly on the understanding of the translator, and this principally depends on the interpretation and explanation of the Quran in Arabic.
Hence, if the translator does not understand the true meaning, how can he interpret it to foreigners?
And if he depends on wrong explanation, then his translation of the meaning will also be wrong.
For this reason, many of foreigners find the translations of the meaning of the Quran unsatisfactory and not understandable.

The Quran ayat or revelations can be divided into two categories:
The plain and the mysterious or ambiguous ayat.

Now a large part of the Quran is not understandable even to the Arab and Muslims, because such mystery has increased on account of the passing of time and the original language became more far; although the Quran preserved the Arabic language itself.

The translation which I depend on is by the late Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly: the inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible.

This interpretation is now refused by many Muslims.
Therefore, it will be the examination and trial of all nations: will they listen to new and clear interpretation that will make everything clear?

The following post will explain this meaning, according to the aya 3: 7
As far as the Generic Human Spiritual System is concerned, the spiritual materials of Islam are of low grade stuff.
Thus anyone who is familiar with the Generic Human Spiritual System will be able to understand the Quran very easily if there are sufficient English translations from reputable scholars. This is not an issue since there are so many English translations available at present.

There is nothing mysterious in the Quran. Where it refers to God, God does not exists as real anyway. Where it refers to messengers and prophets, there are a ton of research on God-men out there. Where is refers to stories of the Bible, we can get it from the Bible and the Quran made many errors when compared to what is reported in the original Torah and Gospels.
If there is any ambiguity, then it is a weakness in communication by the authors. The ambiguities cannot be by God because God is omnipotent thus can easily made things clear.

A large part of the Quran is not understandable even to the Arab and Muslims is because of the low spiritual knowledge competency of the Arabs who first compile the Quran. Many Muslims has problem understanding the Quran because the Quran itself turned and freezes them into zombies [be a slave, don't think, don't question difficult points]
The one that made extension of the materials of the Quran are the Sufis and the Mutzallites but they are condemned by the majority of Muslims as herectics [many are killed and slain].

My point is:
Those who are familiar with the workings of the Generic Human Spiritual System will not have a problem with English translated Quran.
Muslims should not use the excuse, Do not know Arabic = cannot understand the Quran.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-17-2015 at 12:42 AM..
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Old 08-17-2015, 12:39 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,593,506 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
The aya 3: 7, which means:
The interpretation is according to the late Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, the inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible:

{3: 7. [God] is He Who has revealed to you [Mohammed] the Book [: the Quran] some of which being 'precise' ayat a; they are the essence of the Book, [whereas] others being 'analogous ' b.
So those, in whose hearts is a deviation [from the truth]; these follow the 'analogous' [ayat] therein c: seeking to seduce [people and turn them away d], and seeking to interpret it. e
But none but God [only] does know its interpretation f;
those – having sure knowledge – say: "We have believed in it g: each [of the 'precise' and the 'analogous'] being from our Lord. h "
Surely, none may accept admonition save men having discerning hearts.}
.................................................. ..............

a i.e. perfected in their words understandable in meaning, which are not mysterious to man.
b i.e. the ambiguous or allegorical ayat, which are ambiguous to man in meaning and implication.
c and take it as an argument to their falsehood.
d i.e. seeking to confound the weak among people to turn them back from the religion of the Islam: so they say to them: if this had been revealed from God, then it would have been plain and understandable; but these are the words of Mohammed which he said of his own accord.
e i.e. seeking after its meaning and interpretation, so they say:

"What is the meaning of His saying [in the Quran 2: 174
(they [will] eat in their bellies nothing but fire.)
So is the eating in the belly or by the mouth?

Moreover they say: what is the meaning of His saying [in the Quran 37: 64]
(It is a tree growing in the bottom of Hell.)
So how can any tree survive in the fire: living without burning!?"

And so on, they objected to the allegorical ambiguous ayat: denying them and mocking them, while the Prophet said to them: "As such has it been revealed."

And it is narrated that Abu Bakr asked the Prophet – salam to him – "Have you become grey-haired?" He answered: "This grey hair is because of such sooras (or chapters of the Quran) as chapter 81 (When the sun shall be 'divided into many spheres'.), and chapter 100 ([I swear] by that rushed forth, crying out!), and chapter 86 ([I swear] by the sky and [its] 'night visitant'!); and in another prophetic tradition, he said: "My hair has grown grey because of the chapter 11 and its adjacent chapters."

Therefore, God answered them:
f i.e. none knows the interpretation of the allegorical ambiguous ayat in the Quran and their implication, but only God alone; because the allegorical ambiguous ayat tell about the past, foretell about the future and explain about the ethereal world: the world of souls; for you did not attend the past in order to know it, neither the future to understand it, nor do you understand anything about the ethereal world, because you have not yet gone to it.

For the tree which is in the root of Hell is ethereal not material as do you imagine, and the ether does not burn even if it be in fire; and you have something like it which is the asbestos: it does not burn in fire whatever time it may be exposed to the fire.

While about the eating in the belly: you have something like it: the fetus in his mother's womb: he is nourished via the umbilical cord, and does not feed by his mouth; and as such the people of the fire, because they are ethereal spirits, the fire enters their interior from everywhere of their organs.

g even though we don't know its interpretation.
h Who revealed it to our prophet.
There is nothing special about 3:7 that the average reader of the Quran cannot understand.
The average reader will under the descriptions of Hell as allegorical. No reasonable person will take it literally as 'the eating in the belly or by the mouth?' No issue on this.

What is at issue is the nature and concepts used in the description of Hell and how it is directed at non-Muslims. The concepts used are cruel, violent with a heightened sense of vengeance, contempt, enmity and 'hatred' towards non-Muslim. This is immature and low grade spirituality that rely on the condemnation and expense of others [out-group] to instill fears and increase false self-esteem on its followers [in-group].

I stated there is nothing of significance and higher spiritual knowledge that non-Arabic speakers are likely to miss out if they don't read the Quran in Arabic.

In contrast, here is one higher spiritual concept that one is likely to miss out if one do not read the following in original classical Chinese; from the Platform Sutra of Buddhism.

Shenxiu:
The body is the bodhi tree;
The mind is like a bright mirror’s stand.
Be always diligent in rubbing it—
Do not let it attract any dust.

Huineng:
Bodhi is fundamentally without any tree;
The bright mirror is also not a stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing—
Where could any dust be attracted?

I won't go into the details but is pointing out, the Quran do not have such higher spiritual concepts. It would be extremely difficult to understand the above without reading the original texts or even translated texts in other language. Fortunately there are many expositions of the above from various scholars who studies the original texts. Those who are familiar with the Generic Human Spiritual System will be able to understand the above two poems quite easily with support from the various translated expositions.

I stated the Sufis, Mutzallites went beyond what is stated in the Quran into higher levels of spirituality, but they are not mainstream Islam and are condemned as heretic [many are slain as hypocrites or infidels]

There is nothing special with 3:7 that an average reader with basic Generic Human Spiritual System cannot understand.

Are there any more verses in the Quran that are difficult to understand?
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Old 08-17-2015, 06:14 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,323,236 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is nothing special about 3:7 that the average reader of the Quran cannot understand.
The average reader will under the descriptions of Hell as allegorical. No reasonable person will take it literally as 'the eating in the belly or by the mouth?' No issue on this.

What is at issue is the nature and concepts used in the description of Hell and how it is directed at non-Muslims. The concepts used are cruel, violent with a heightened sense of vengeance, contempt, enmity and 'hatred' towards non-Muslim. This is immature and low grade spirituality that rely on the condemnation and expense of others [out-group] to instill fears and increase false self-esteem on its followers [in-group].

I stated there is nothing of significance and higher spiritual knowledge that non-Arabic speakers are likely to miss out if they don't read the Quran in Arabic.

In contrast, here is one higher spiritual concept that one is likely to miss out if one do not read the following in original classical Chinese; from the Platform Sutra of Buddhism.

Shenxiu:
The body is the bodhi tree;
The mind is like a bright mirror’s stand.
Be always diligent in rubbing it—
Do not let it attract any dust.

Huineng:
Bodhi is fundamentally without any tree;
The bright mirror is also not a stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing—
Where could any dust be attracted?

I won't go into the details but is pointing out, the Quran do not have such higher spiritual concepts. It would be extremely difficult to understand the above without reading the original texts or even translated texts in other language. Fortunately there are many expositions of the above from various scholars who studies the original texts. Those who are familiar with the Generic Human Spiritual System will be able to understand the above two poems quite easily with support from the various translated expositions.

I stated the Sufis, Mutzallites went beyond what is stated in the Quran into higher levels of spirituality, but they are not mainstream Islam and are condemned as heretic [many are slain as hypocrites or infidels]

There is nothing special with 3:7 that an average reader with basic Generic Human Spiritual System cannot understand.

Are there any more verses in the Quran that are difficult to understand?

Just addressing this:

Quote:
I stated the Sufis, Mutzallites went beyond what is stated in the Quran into higher levels of spirituality, but they are not mainstream Islam and are condemned as heretic [many are slain as hypocrites or infidels]
There are Sunni that practice Sufi'ism as a methodology.

There are Sufi that are not Muslim

There are Sunni that follow Sufi as a 5th Madhab

It is kind of difficult to veriry if Sufi is or is not part of Mainstream Islam.

It is actually difficult to identify what is "Mainstream"

Whie it can be said 85-90% of Muslims are Sunni and 30% of them follow the Hanafi madhab, It has to be kept in mind some do not follow any Madhab, some follow a madhab different from the 4 recognized ones etc.

All that can be determined is the consensus of the majority on individual issues.
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