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Old 08-17-2015, 02:52 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,484 times
Reputation: 13

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Many people here in this forum, non-Muslim men, they know a lot about the Quran and the Islam and Prophet Mohammed.
The argument is established before God against them; their punishment in the Next Life will be according to their knowledge and their ignoring of the truthfulness of the Quran, and Mohammed the messenger or apostle of God.
What book is better and more truthful than the Quran and more authentic? What apostle is more truthful and more in the monotheism and the 'exclusive devotion to God alone? Who broke up the idols of the Arab and who confirmed the Ten Commandments?

By God, I swear those who contradict and oppose the Quran will go to Hell in the Next Life and will lose the prosperity of Paradise in heaven.

As the interpreter of the Quran and the Bible: Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly said in his book The Disagreement of the Quran and the Bible, (displayed on the internet):
"I have studied the present Hebrew Bible and the Gospel, the Psalms and the Quran; and discovered that the first three books had been somewhat altered by the hands of men, so that they changed some of their statements and distorted the truth. Therefore, from now on we cannot rely upon them. For this reason, anyone who seeks after the truth should hold fast with the Quran which no falsehood can touch whether beforehand or afterwards, that is the revelation from a Wise and Praiseworthy (God.)"
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Old 08-17-2015, 03:51 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,484 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is nothing special about 3:7 that the average reader of the Quran cannot understand.
The aya itself may be understandably clear to some extent, but it speaks of the Quran revelations are of two kinds: one kind plain (specially so about the ayat of statements and law), the other category are the mysterious ayat: like the tree that plant in the base of Hell, and one who falls down from heaven and birds pierce him, and like most of the ayat in the thirteeth part of the book of the Quran, which even Muslims could not understand, and even the Prophet himself did not know their meaning and implication.

Refer to the book The Universe and the Quran which is displayed on the internet, by the late inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible: Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.
In fact a great part of the Quran now is ambiguous and mysterious, but after its interpretation, it will expound a great knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The average reader will under the descriptions of Hell as allegorical. No reasonable person will take it literally as 'the eating in the belly or by the mouth?' No issue on this.
Hell is not allegorical; it is true.
To you the eating in belly may be not objectionable, but to the disbelievers of Mecca, it was a kind of objection, because they want to find, like many Westerners now, some points to stir their doubts and disagreement.

Hell are three kinds:
1- in the World: it is the core of the earth: the fire of volcanoes; the volcanoes are its gates: to this fire the guilty and those 'associaters' and idolaters who oppose the apostles: those will be admitted to this fire immediately following their death.
2- the sun and its gaseous layers. Which will break up on Doomsday to become the new planets.
3- Saqar which a sun larger than the present sun, it is Hell of the Next Life after Doomsday.

This is the interpretation of the ayat 102: 5-7 [according to Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly]
{5. No, indeed, [O you occupied with the life of the World rather than the Next Life], had you but known for certain e,
6. You will surely see Hell f.

7. And [on Doomsday] you will certainly see it with your own eye-sights.}
.................................................. ...............
e About what horror and cosmic events occur on that day, then you would have refrained from hoarding money and from being occupied by women and children, and you would have stayed in the mosques and worshipped God in them until you go to the world of souls, but you are unaware and are asleep.
For this meaning, the Prophet pointed out with his saying: “People are asleep, but when they die the will awake.”
f When you will go to the Barzakh world, or the Afterlife, and at that time you will believe in its existence.

The people of this forum do not allow links (In fact they want to restrict the propagation of the Islam);
I can give you link, but anyhow read:
Man after Death, displayed on the internet, by the late interpreter, you will find the description of Hell which is the sun and its gaseous layers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What is at issue is the nature and concepts used in the description of Hell and how it is directed at non-Muslims.
Hell is not directed to non-Muslims, hell is also directed to anyone who associate with God and increase in sins and disobedience.
But non-Muslims will lose in the Next Life, while Muslims will have the chance of success if they do not associate others with God and believe in all the prophets and in all the heavenly books + they should work righteous work and give charity.
But Muslims, who associate the imams and sheikhs with God as do Christians and Jews, will lose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The concepts used are cruel, violent with a heightened sense of vengeance, contempt, enmity and 'hatred' towards non-Muslim.
I cannot direct such things against non-Muslims, and that Hell will be to them with exception of Muslims: as the aya 4: 123, which means:

[The reason for revealing the following aya:]
[Some Jewish men and some Muslim men boasted to each other; the Jews said: "We are the chosen people of God, and God will forgive us our sins whatever sins we may commit."
While the Muslims said: "No, but it is we to whom God will forgive our sins, because we have believed in God and His messenger Mohammed."
Therefore, this aya was revealed:]

{ 4: 123. It is not according to your vain desires [Muslims] a, nor the vain desires of the people of the Bible [: Jews and Christians] b;
but anyone who does evil shall be punished accordingly c, and shall not find for himself apart from God any patron d or helper e.}
.................................................. ....................
a O Muslims, the forgiveness and remission of the punishment is not according to your desires and wishes.
b Jews and Christians who commit sins then say: "We shall be forgiven."
This is confirmed by His saying – be glorified – in the Quran 7: 169, which
means:
(And there succeeded,after them, [their] progeny who inherited [from their fathers] the Book [: the Torah]; they accepted [as a bribe] the [temporary] property of this low [Worldly life and] say [to themselves for excuse]: "[This time, everything] will be forgiven us [and we shall not repeat it again.]")
It means: They take the bribe in their judgment and say: God will forgive us.

c Either in the life of the World or in the Next Life. As is it indicated by His saying – be glorified – in the Quran 99: 7-8, which means:
(And he who does the weight of an atom of good shall see it [written in the book of his deeds.]
And he who does the weight of an atom of evil shall see it [written in the book of his deeds.])
d To take care about him.
e To help and save him from God's punishment.
The interpretation is according to Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is immature and low grade spirituality that rely on the condemnation and expense of others [out-group] to instill fears and increase false self-esteem on its followers [in-group].
Read Man after Death. (displayed on the web)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I stated there is nothing of significance and higher spiritual knowledge that non-Arabic speakers are likely to miss out if they don't read the Quran in Arabic.
You speak and repeat much many words and objections, and I cannot answer all this at the same time, but if you read the book : An Hour with Ghosts, you may find much knowledge.
if you search about: quran-ayat then you put . c o m, you will find the books of the interpreter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I stated the Sufis, Mutzallites went beyond what is stated in the Quran into higher levels of spirituality, but they are not mainstream Islam and are condemned as heretic [many are slain as hypocrites or infidels]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is nothing special with 3:7 that an average reader with basic Generic Human Spiritual System cannot understand.
You say so, but the aya also speaks that non but God alone knows the intepretation of the puzzling ayat of the Quran, and that many men try to seduce people by means of such mysterious ayat; in fact the objections of the people of the Bible: Jews and Christians in addition to the idolaters among the Arab, all that is with these ambiguous ayat which they do not know their meaning and implication.

See the description of Doomsday, and how it will take place and the portents heralding the coming of Doomsday: in the terminal part of the book The Universe and the Quran.

I cannot tell you here all the ayat.
Some told me: it is useless to speak with these people: they will lose in the Next Life, leave them be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Are there any more verses in the Quran that are difficult to understand?
Refer to the books of the late interpreter: The Universe and the Quran and Man after Death, to know a large number of such puzzling ayat.

Last edited by roar; 08-17-2015 at 04:12 PM..
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Old 08-17-2015, 04:14 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,484 times
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Moreover, I cannot answer many points at the same time. if you give one question, I may be able to answer it with God's help.
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Old 08-17-2015, 04:25 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,484 times
Reputation: 13
About Hell and the 'vengeance' and 'violence' and 'hatred' ... etc.

Know that God is Just; He does not wrong people; but people do wrong themselves by the disobedience and the enthusiasm about Jesus, Ezra, Ali and others. God dislikes the transgressor who trangresses on the weak and is cruel to the poor --> therefore He will misguides him in order to punish him in Hell in the Next Life.
God will not make equal the outcome of the charity doer and the transgressor: He will guide the charity doer, and they will reward him in Paradise which is the kingdom of heavens.
On the other hand, He dislikes the transgressor and the wrong-doer so He will misguide him, and Satan will have control on him, so he will be punished in Hell on Doomsday.

This does not concern Muslims or other Jews and Christians: all of them are His servants; but they should follow the last apostle as did they follow the previous one, or else they are not true believers, but followers of traditions and not true believers.
As Jesus told the Jews: if you truly follow Moses you should also follow me. The same is true about Mohammed and the Quran; therefore, anyone who does not follow the recent messenger, will not go to Paradise but will be a loser in the Next Life.

I cannot say everything here; I am like one tied and cannot give link: what is this kind of restriction!
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Old 08-17-2015, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 184,397 times
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If Allah is so holy and tolerant, why does he command believers to kill Jews and Christians?

If Allah is the only god, why did he use the Jewish Bible to write the Quran? Why did Allah declare Abraham to be a Muslim?

Apparently, Islam is not a peaceful religion.

Here are several verses from the Quran indicating Allah's hatred of Jews and Christians, and his need to use the Jewish Bible to justify Islam.


[2.83] And when We made a covenant with the children of Israel: You shall not serve any but Allah and (you shall do) good to (your) parents, and to the near of kin and to the orphans and the needy, and you shall speak to men good words and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate. Then you turned back except a few of you and (now too) you turn aside.

2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.

2.98] Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surelyAllah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

[2.113] And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.

[2.120] And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.

[2.140] Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

[3.23] Have you not considered those (Jews) who are given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah that it might decide between them, then a part of them turn back and they withdraw.

[2.211] Ask the Israelites how many a clear sign have We given them; and whoever changes the favor of Allah after it has come to him, then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

[2.246] Have you not considered the chiefs of the children of Israel after Musa, when they said to a prophet of theirs: Raise up for us a king, (that) we may fight in the way of Allah. He said: May it not be that you would not fight if fighting is ordained for you? They said: And what reason have we that we should not fight in the way of Allah, and we have indeed been compelled to abandon our homes and our children. But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned back, except a few of them, and Allah knows the unjust.

[3.49] And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.

[3.67] Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.

[4.46] Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.

[4.47] O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.

[4.160] Wherefore for the iniquity of those who are Jews did We disallow to them the good things which had been made lawful for them and for their hindering many (people) from Allah's way.

[5.12] And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My apostles and assist them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way.

[5.13] But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).

5.18] And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual coming.

[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
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Old 08-17-2015, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,326,099 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl012 View Post
If Allah is so holy and tolerant, why does he command believers to kill Jews and Christians?

If Allah is the only god, why did he use the Jewish Bible to write the Quran? Why did Allah declare Abraham to be a Muslim?

Apparently, Islam is not a peaceful religion.

Here are several verses from the Quran indicating Allah's hatred of Jews and Christians, and his need to use the Jewish Bible to justify Islam.


[2.83] And when We made a covenant with the children of Israel: You shall not serve any but Allah and (you shall do) good to (your) parents, and to the near of kin and to the orphans and the needy, and you shall speak to men good words and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate. Then you turned back except a few of you and (now too) you turn aside.

2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.

2.98] Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surelyAllah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

[2.113] And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.

[2.120] And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.

[2.140] Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

[3.23] Have you not considered those (Jews) who are given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah that it might decide between them, then a part of them turn back and they withdraw.

[2.211] Ask the Israelites how many a clear sign have We given them; and whoever changes the favor of Allah after it has come to him, then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

[2.246] Have you not considered the chiefs of the children of Israel after Musa, when they said to a prophet of theirs: Raise up for us a king, (that) we may fight in the way of Allah. He said: May it not be that you would not fight if fighting is ordained for you? They said: And what reason have we that we should not fight in the way of Allah, and we have indeed been compelled to abandon our homes and our children. But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned back, except a few of them, and Allah knows the unjust.

[3.49] And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.

[3.67] Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.

[4.46] Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.

[4.47] O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.

[4.160] Wherefore for the iniquity of those who are Jews did We disallow to them the good things which had been made lawful for them and for their hindering many (people) from Allah's way.

[5.12] And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My apostles and assist them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way.

[5.13] But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).

5.18] And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual coming.

[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
Islam is not a new religion and the Qur'an was the same revelation as what was revealed to all the prior Prophets and in the Holy Scriptures of the Torah, Psalms, and the Gospel of Jesus.

The ayyats you list are not fully understood when read as stand alone verses, one needs to read the full discourse eash was revealed in--Note the full surah just the 9 or so lines that make up the discourse it was revealed in. That can be found by reading a Tafsir such as the one by Maududi

Syed Abu-Ala' Maududi's Chapter Introductions to the Qur'an
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Old 08-17-2015, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,593,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
Many people here in this forum, non-Muslim men, they know a lot about the Quran and the Islam and Prophet Mohammed.
The argument is established before God against them; their punishment in the Next Life will be according to their knowledge and their ignoring of the truthfulness of the Quran, and Mohammed the messenger or apostle of God.
What book is better and more truthful than the Quran and more authentic? What apostle is more truthful and more in the monotheism and the 'exclusive devotion to God alone? Who broke up the idols of the Arab and who confirmed the Ten Commandments?

By God, I swear those who contradict and oppose the Quran will go to Hell in the Next Life and will lose the prosperity of Paradise in heaven.
I know that is what the Quran stated, i.e. non-Muslims will go to hell and tortured in the worst manner one can imagine. BUT that is not true.

P All that exist must be true.

P1 God does not exist, thus not true.
P2 The Quran is authored by God.
C3 Therefore the Quran is not true.

C4 Therefore the hell that is presented in the Quran cannot be true.

Until you prove God exists as real, whatever you presented as related to God cannot be real.

Btw, I am saying you cannot believe in God based on faith for your personal purpose. Because that is based on faith, [i.e. belief without proof or reason] you cannot claim any truths for your God and the Quran.
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Old 08-17-2015, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,593,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
The aya itself may be understandably clear to some extent, but it speaks of the Quran revelations are of two kinds: one kind plain (specially so about the ayat of statements and law), the other category are the mysterious ayat: like the tree that plant in the base of Hell, and one who falls down from heaven and birds pierce him, and like most of the ayat in the thirteeth part of the book of the Quran, which even Muslims could not understand, and even the Prophet himself did not know their meaning and implication.
There is no issue with allegorical statements. The Zaqqum tree زقوم‎ is merely a story to frighten Muslims. Note the terrible stories of hell in the Quran or Bible can be easily understood via psychology and neuroscience. It is no big deal. Many of those who took LSD and other hallucination has seen 'real' hell in their mind.


Quote:
Refer to the book The Universe and the Quran which is displayed on the
internet, by the late inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible:
Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.
In fact a great part of the Quran now is ambiguous and mysterious, but after
its interpretation, it will expound a great knowledge.
I have read the 6236 verses in the Quran and the few verses that are claimed to have scientific basis are not meant to be scientific at all. One can refer to many Buddhist and Hindu texts to reconcile with Science but they don't make a lot of noise of it like the Muslims do.



Quote:
Hell is not allegorical; it is true.
To you the eating in belly may be not objectionable, but to the disbelievers
of Mecca, it was a kind of objection, because they want to find, like many
Westerners now, some points to stir their doubts and disagreement.
As I had mentioned earlier, until you can prove God exists, nothing from the Quran can be true.

Quote:
Hell are three kinds:
1- in the World: it is the core of the earth: the fire of volcanoes; the volcanoes are its gates: to this fire the guilty and those 'associaters' and idolaters who oppose the apostles: those will be admitted to this fire immediately following their death.
2- the sun and its gaseous layers. Which will break up on Doomsday to become the new planets.
3- Saqar which a sun larger than the present sun, it is Hell of the Next Life after Doomsday.

This is the interpretation of the ayat 102: 5-7 [according to Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly]
{5. No, indeed, [O you occupied with the life of the World rather than the Next Life], had you but known for certain e,
6. You will surely see Hell f.

7. And [on Doomsday] you will certainly see it with your own eye-sights.}
.................................................. ...............
e About what horror and cosmic events occur on that day, then you would have refrained from hoarding money and from being occupied by women and children, and you would have stayed in the mosques and worshipped God in them until you go to the world of souls, but you are unaware and are asleep.
For this meaning, the Prophet pointed out with his saying: “People are asleep, but when they die the will awake.”
f When you will go to the Barzakh world, or the Afterlife, and at that time you will believe in its existence.
102:5-7 can see easily understand from the Quran, there is no need to be so long winded.
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Old 08-17-2015, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,326,099 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I know that is what the Quran stated, i.e. non-Muslims will go to hell and tortured in the worst manner one can imagine. BUT that is not true.

P All that exist must be true.

P1 God does not exist, thus not true.
P2 The Quran is authored by God.
C3 Therefore the Quran is not true.

C4 Therefore the hell that is presented in the Quran cannot be true.

Until you prove God exists as real, whatever you presented as related to God cannot be real.

Btw, I am saying you cannot believe in God based on faith for your personal purpose. Because that is based on faith, [i.e. belief without proof or reason] you cannot claim any truths for your God and the Quran.
All that is true, if the physical universe is all there is.

However, there is more than the physical universe. While that can not be proven through physical means, there are indicators, such as strong evidence the universe has a staring point and a predictable ending point

How Astronomers Confirmed the Universe Is Dying


As matter can not come from nothing and can not become nothing, this is evidence there is something in addition to the physical realm.

The argument is what is this non-physical realm. For us theists that is the realm of The Creator. I accept with our limited knowledge and inability to know how to measure and quantify it, no empirical proof can be offered. But, it does seem logical that a creator would somehow make contact with his creation. A method would be through the use of Prophets, which we Theists contend has occurred.

while Atheists usually counter this as dependent upon unverifiable faith, many of us Theist will contend it is not based upon faith, but upon the reports of trusted witnesses.
There is a preponderance of evidence the witnesses are reporting an event they experienced and similar events among a significant number of witnesses.
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Old 08-17-2015, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
All that is true, if the physical universe is all there is.

However, there is more than the physical universe. While that can not be proven through physical means, there are indicators, such as strong evidence the universe has a staring point and a predictable ending point

How Astronomers Confirmed the Universe Is Dying


As matter can not come from nothing and can not become nothing, this is evidence there is something in addition to the physical realm.

The argument is what is this non-physical realm. For us theists that is the realm of The Creator. I accept with our limited knowledge and inability to know how to measure and quantify it, no empirical proof can be offered. But, it does seem logical that a creator would somehow make contact with his creation. A method would be through the use of Prophets, which we Theists contend has occurred.

while Atheists usually counter this as dependent upon unverifiable faith, many of us Theist will contend it is not based upon faith, but upon the reports of trusted witnesses.
There is a preponderance of evidence the witnesses are reporting an event they experienced and similar events among a significant number of witnesses.
Note the critical philosophy that justify why God it is an impossibility. To understand this one need to get a full grasp of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. While an idea of God beyond the empirical may be logically possible [pseudo rational], it is impossible to be real in any sense.

To postulate God is almost like postulating a square circle.
Philosophically and wisdom wise, there is no room for a real God except in psychological terms of faith to deal with an inevitable existential dilemma. The other realm for a God-like [not God per se] is the philosophy of morality which is not dealt within the concepts of reality but a transcendental level.

The concept of first cause, ultimate beginning, final cause are easily discounted and explained away from the philosophical perspective. Note I have been on to this for umpteen years.

It is acceptable that human-like aliens may exist some where in a universe billions of light years away, such speculations are possible because human-like aliens if they ever appear and can be verified by logical and empirical proofs.

The idea of God is impossible [like a square-circle] because it is a contradiction when it is expected to be real.

Witnesses?? In our modern era, many such witnesses unfortunately are referred to a psychiatrist and many-not-all are also confined in the psychiatric ward. Many - note mass hysteria.

The transcendental idea of a God is an impossibility to be real.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-17-2015 at 08:59 PM..
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