U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-17-2015, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
Some told me: it is useless to speak with these people: they will lose in the Next Life, leave them be.
I will not question you for your faith in God because I understand the majority of humans need that to deal with an existential dilemma.

Faith = belief without proof nor reason.

The point is faith is necessary for certain human conditions but it is not effective for higher levels of being human, fairness, human rights, justice and equity.
To be a higher human being one need proofs and reason.

Will you accept it if I accuse you or murder [or whatever] based on flimsy beliefs [faith] without providing reasons and proofs. Then the judge or jury agree with me on my beliefs/faith and sentence you appropriately. If you are a progressive and better human being surely you will not accept such a thing.

With reason and proofs there is a good chance I will not be wrong and it is the best way to reflect the truth.

So far, what I have been posting is based on reasoning and proofs whereas all you did is to rely on faith.
For your own sake, I suggest you rely more on proofs and reason rather than faith, unless you have no choice but to belief on faith. If you have to rely on faith, you must recognize its limitations.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-18-2015, 01:15 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,740,489 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"I am still amazed that non arabic speakers would try to comment on an a book written in classical arabic."

I am still amazed that Muslims think that a supernatural being with the power to CREATE THE UNIVERSE would write a book hardly anyone can understand! It is practically untranslatable according to Muslims. It is full of contradictions and mistakes and confusion. Why doesn't this super being with power beyond imagination send down a book that we can all easily understand and gets rid of all the repetition and mistakes and contradictions and silly verses? Maybe get rid of all that stuff about menstruation and slavery and hate and terrorism and replace it with a cure for cancer and some demands for peace and productivity and integrity and rationality and justice and proper science instead of endless threats and nonsense. Maybe give some advice on how Muslim countries can pull themselves out of the dark ages and stop slaughtering each other.

Better yet, download it to our iphones.

By the way,

Classic Muslim Excuses (or Can the Quran Be Understood by non-Arabic Scholars?)
But there are DEMANDS for Submission/Giving-up/Peace, Striving for Success, Integrity/Self-righteousness, pseudo-rationality, authoritarian merciful vengeance, and Struggle for Knowledge/Wisdom to use as tools/weapons, within the threats and nonsense.

Quote:
"Verily We have created man into toil and struggle… Have We not made for him a pair of eyes; and a tongue, and a pair of lips; and shown him the two ways (obedience and disobedience)?"

(Qur'an, Al-Balad 90:4-10)

After providing us with the capability to contemplate, think and differentiate between things, He instructed us to know Him, to know his Prophets and to know His Deen, Islam. He said:

"So know that there is no god save Allah, ask forgiveness for your sins and for the believing men and the believing women. Allah knows well your moving and your place of rest."
Ohh, that's another inspiration for the jingle... Oh, if only Santa loved improper Favoritism and Cronyism enough to hurt his children instead of educating them calmly and properly.

Too bad people aren't mature enough to accept a unfavorable reality and work with it naturally, not mature enough to see past their own short-sighted (and perhaps genetic) needs and desires, not caring enough about an honest and prudent civilization unless they think it represents an extension of their own short existence.

"What point is there is being good for goodness sake? I need Immortal Bliss, I need to side with Corrupting Power, I need Immortal Bliss for my loved ones, these believes help me to happily and often thoughtlessly reproduce, what greater pleasure is there than in this good-fit and available religion of my community."

What is there in Justice that ignores goodness? That weights it below power-play allegiance and selfish investment groveling. These religions are just groups of people and their desired texts which they hope will prop up their desired or assumed believes.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 08-18-2015 at 02:44 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2015, 01:44 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,740,489 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
Some try deliberately to stir doubts about the Quran:

E.g. the aya 17: 110
[The reason for revealing the following aya:]
[One night in Mecca, the Prophet – salam to him – said in his prayer: “O God Most Gracious, O Most Merciful!”
And the associaters said: “This one claims he has one god, and now he calls two!”
Therefore, this aya was revealed, which means:]


110. Say: "Call upon God, or call upon the Most Gracious; whichsoever you call upon; to Him belong the Names Most Beautiful." a
----------------------------------------------------------
a It means: the Creator is One, and His names are many, and all of such names are His beautiful attributes.

The interpretation is according to the late Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, the inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible.
Doubts? Who has stirred up doubts in their own hearts save by the will of an all-powerful controller and decider?

Don't be a doubter of the simple truth! The truth hurts only if you want it to.
Regardless, by this weak and defensive gesture, the honor of you chosen god(s) and bibliolatries are lowered in the eyes of many.

You all do a great dishonor to your own thinking-through and those you imagine yourself defending if you think that "The Royal We" sprang out of someone's "perfect" thought of Singularity (long ago in HUMAN HISTORY and The Creator and Ancestor of Everything Else thought it good to fester confusion in his "new and improved" bibliolatry) instead of the Obvious thought of "loyal supporters."

Muslims are often wrong, Christians are often wrong, so they inter-convert between false religions of simple-minded Fascism based on Abrahamics baby animal bisecting rituals. A pity, not to know that the Royal We is about the Group Authority, and the Royal I (Used by some Chinese Emperors) is about the Ultimate Authority... No worries, I've heard stories that even half-educated Queens have made that mistake.

Genesis uses the plural and assumes Angels with God, so does the Quran. A pity that people think that weak gods agreeing with the "Stronger then the Rest Combined" god and being recognized for it is "putting them in the same place." It simply isn't unless you are paranoid and need to invent some convoluted excuse to defend your fears of loosing imagined power and safety.

Muslims believe in Angels
Jews believe in Angels

I think we can move on as to why Allah and Yahweh use the "royal we" and it is not to deny the existence of the angels or in-spite of it, but to highlight the loyal insolvent of the proud heavenly army of killers and bystanders.

the modern joking and somber use of the royal plural is simply a mistake in proper language use due to ancient (but not that ancient) custom when singularity meant weakness, to err is human.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 08-18-2015 at 02:49 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2015, 02:05 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,740,489 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
Do you speak badly about the Quran? And about the Islam?
By God, you only follow your falsehood, and you know it.

The Quran came to correct the previous books: the Torah and the Gospel, which have been distorted by men.
Moreover, your words are only some arranged and decorated words.
Relation of 'scientology' to science is only an assertion and it is a fallacy.
In addition, how can any reasonable man say that God does not exist, after he sees all this existence and the natural manifestation round about us, and the succession of the night and the day, and the harmony and system, and the perishing of generations one after another!

quran-ayat.com/conflicts/index.htm#preface
Liar and deceiver! it is your own responsibility not to blame a blameless God for your believes! Do you even know how what you believe arose? It's parts were gathered by many humans working with Political leaders, some parts were "authenticated" by humans, and other parts were thrown away and not included by these same, and before that each of the parts was written by many humans not first sources, worshiping ink on wood, worshiping pixels on screens, worshiping thoughts in mind, WHAT A CATASTROPHE! Worshiping THEIR OWN CREATIONS! Were you made for a book? or is education actually made for You?

Go read the Quran again, it will further educate you if not hypnotize you with repetition. Stand with faith, because if you never loose loyalty to what doesn't need loyalty, you will continue to have loyalty to it wastefully.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2015, 02:41 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,740,489 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is nothing special about 3:7 that the average reader of the Quran cannot understand.
The average reader will under the descriptions of Hell as allegorical. No reasonable person will take it literally as 'the eating in the belly or by the mouth?' No issue on this.

What is at issue is the nature and concepts used in the description of Hell and how it is directed at non-Muslims. The concepts used are cruel, violent with a heightened sense of vengeance, contempt, enmity and 'hatred' towards non-Muslim. This is immature and low grade spirituality that rely on the condemnation and expense of others [out-group] to instill fears and increase false self-esteem on its followers [in-group].

I stated there is nothing of significance and higher spiritual knowledge that non-Arabic speakers are likely to miss out if they don't read the Quran in Arabic.

In contrast, here is one higher spiritual concept that one is likely to miss out if one do not read the following in original classical Chinese; from the Platform Sutra of Buddhism.

Shenxiu:
The body is the bodhi tree;
The mind is like a bright mirror’s stand.
Be always diligent in rubbing it—
Do not let it attract any dust.

Huineng:
Bodhi is fundamentally without any tree;
The bright mirror is also not a stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing—
Where could any dust be attracted?

I won't go into the details but is pointing out, the Quran do not have such higher spiritual concepts. It would be extremely difficult to understand the above without reading the original texts or even translated texts in other language. Fortunately there are many expositions of the above from various scholars who studies the original texts. Those who are familiar with the Generic Human Spiritual System will be able to understand the above two poems quite easily with support from the various translated expositions.

I stated the Sufis, Mutzallites went beyond what is stated in the Quran into higher levels of spirituality, but they are not mainstream Islam and are condemned as heretic [many are slain as hypocrites or infidels]

There is nothing special with 3:7 that an average reader with basic Generic Human Spiritual System cannot understand.

Are there any more verses in the Quran that are difficult to understand?
Those who speak or write with the intent to hide all mysterious are simply not able enough to make them clear, or not interested in favor of needless but desired beauty. Modern English is a better language than the more vague and ancient ones of less knowledgeable people.

Indeed,

1. Believe in cleansing. The body is just like the unconscious tree made up of cells. The mind somewhat holds up what is reflected onto other's minds, it needs to be cleaned by using critical thinking or it gathers false thoughts that most-times spoils the happy focus that the reflection makes into the world.

2. Doubt about cleansing. The concept of a tree-name is just a concept and is fundamentally without real objective substance unlike actual trees. A mirror without a stand (something that impacts without a mind) is most-times useless even if bright and shiny. Neither the thing labeled "bright mirror" nor the mind in the poem can attract bad things (dust) because it isn't actually a mirror but only a metaphor for the needed effects and external uses of the mind, which aren't objective but "processive", and cannot be cleaned up in general as the past has already escaped. The mind doesn't attract bad things needed to clean up, even if it gets them, instead of trying to remove thoughts and wasting them, it is better to use things for their proper uses.

Now, if such weak ancient languages were more straightforward they wouldn't be as wasteful and useless. Yet people would much rather preserve vagaries deemed pretty by them than truths deemed ugly by the same.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2015, 02:34 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,267 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I stated there is nothing of significance and higher spiritual knowledge that non-Arabic speakers are likely to miss out if they don't read the Quran in Arabic.

In contrast, here is one higher spiritual concept that one is likely to miss out if one do not read the following in original classical Chinese; from the Platform Sutra of Buddhism.

I stated the Sufis, Mutzallites went beyond what is stated in the Quran into higher levels of spirituality, but they are not mainstream Islam and are condemned as heretic [many are slain as hypocrites or infidels]

There is nothing special with 3:7 that an average reader with basic Generic Human Spiritual System cannot understand.

Are there any more verses in the Quran that are difficult to understand?
What higher spiritual knowledge which you keep asserting?
I know that some Jews in the time of Prophet Mohammed, when they were asked by the idolaterrs: is our religion of the idolatry better or the religion of Mohammed? And they - out of their envy and rancor - said: "your religion is better than Mohammed's religion."

So in this contest you are like those Jews.

Moreover, there had been a large number of apostles sent by God, not all of them are mentioned in the Quran or the Bible; and in fact the apostles of God went to all nations: each apostle in the language of his own people, but later on their teachings were altered and distorted into idolatry and worshipping the apostles themselves beside God; just like what Christians do now (and Jews and many of Muslims also.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2015, 05:30 PM
 
352 posts, read 308,269 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Doubts? Who has stirred up doubts in their own hearts save by the will of an all-powerful controller and decider?

Don't be a doubter of the simple truth! The truth hurts only if you want it to.
Regardless, by this weak and defensive gesture, the honor of you chosen god(s) and bibliolatries are lowered in the eyes of many.

You all do a great dishonor to your own thinking-through and those you imagine yourself defending if you think that "The Royal We" sprang out of someone's "perfect" thought of Singularity (long ago in HUMAN HISTORY and The Creator and Ancestor of Everything Else thought it good to fester confusion in his "new and improved" bibliolatry) instead of the Obvious thought of "loyal supporters."

Muslims are often wrong, Christians are often wrong, so they inter-convert between false religions of simple-minded Fascism based on Abrahamics baby animal bisecting rituals. A pity, not to know that the Royal We is about the Group Authority, and the Royal I (Used by some Chinese Emperors) is about the Ultimate Authority... No worries, I've heard stories that even half-educated Queens have made that mistake.

Genesis uses the plural and assumes Angels with God, so does the Quran. A pity that people think that weak gods agreeing with the "Stronger then the Rest Combined" god and being recognized for it is "putting them in the same place." It simply isn't unless you are paranoid and need to invent some convoluted excuse to defend your fears of loosing imagined power and safety.

Muslims believe in Angels
Jews believe in Angels

I think we can move on as to why Allah and Yahweh use the "royal we" and it is not to deny the existence of the angels or in-spite of it, but to highlight the loyal insolvent of the proud heavenly army of killers and bystanders.

the modern joking and somber use of the royal plural is simply a mistake in proper language use due to ancient (but not that ancient) custom when singularity meant weakness, to err is human.
I would appreciate your elaboration of the terminology in your post. If you will, please be as plain as possible!

Group authority

If the user profile is a member of a group and OWNER(*USRPRF) is specified, the Group authority field controls what authority is given to the group profile for any objects created by this user.
Group authority can be specified only when GRPPRF is not *NONE and OWNER is *USRPRF. Group authority applies to the profile specified in the GRPPRF parameter. It does not apply to supplemental group profiles specified in the SUPGRPPRF parameter.

https://www-01.ibm.com/support/knowl...arlgrpauth.htm



God, The Ultimate Source of Authority

Bible Authority | God, The Ultimate Source of Authority




Wassalaam. devotee
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2015, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Those who speak or write with the intent to hide all mysterious are simply not able enough to make them clear, or not interested in favor of needless but desired beauty. Modern English is a better language than the more vague and ancient ones of less knowledgeable people.

Indeed,

1. Believe in cleansing. The body is just like the unconscious tree made up of cells. The mind somewhat holds up what is reflected onto other's minds, it needs to be cleaned by using critical thinking or it gathers false thoughts that most-times spoils the happy focus that the reflection makes into the world.

2. Doubt about cleansing. The concept of a tree-name is just a concept and is fundamentally without real objective substance unlike actual trees. A mirror without a stand (something that impacts without a mind) is most-times useless even if bright and shiny. Neither the thing labeled "bright mirror" nor the mind in the poem can attract bad things (dust) because it isn't actually a mirror but only a metaphor for the needed effects and external uses of the mind, which aren't objective but "processive", and cannot be cleaned up in general as the past has already escaped. The mind doesn't attract bad things needed to clean up, even if it gets them, instead of trying to remove thoughts and wasting them, it is better to use things for their proper uses.

Now, if such weak ancient languages were more straightforward they wouldn't be as wasteful and useless. Yet people would much rather preserve vagaries deemed pretty by them than truths deemed ugly by the same.
I agree with your point. The simpler the better.

The above example was merely to demonstrate, in comparison to the Eastern religions, there is nothing sophisticated, mysterious, unseen and unknowable within the Quran that a non-Arabic reader cannot understand via translated Quran[s].
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2015, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
What higher spiritual knowledge which you keep asserting?
I know that some Jews in the time of Prophet Mohammed, when they were asked by the idolaterrs: is our religion of the idolatry better or the religion of Mohammed? And they - out of their envy and rancor - said: "your religion is better than Mohammed's religion."

So in this contest you are like those Jews.

Moreover, there had been a large number of apostles sent by God, not all of them are mentioned in the Quran or the Bible; and in fact the apostles of God went to all nations: each apostle in the language of his own people, but later on their teachings were altered and distorted into idolatry and worshipping the apostles themselves beside God; just like what Christians do now (and Jews and many of Muslims also.)
Higher spiritual knowledge has nothing to do with the Jews as you presented above.

Within academic, we have a range of knowledge from lowest
1. kindergarten -
2. grade schools -
3. High School -college,
4. graduate,
5. post grads
6. PhD - the highest

Similarly in spirituality/religion there is some sort of grading from lowest to the highest.
The highest level of spiritual presented in the Quran [I believe] is level 3.

Highest does not mean the best and optimal for an individual.
What is best for the individual is his/her level of spiritual must fit his learning level or spiritual intelligence quotient [SQ]. Analogically, generally a person with low IQ and general intelligence will not be able to pass exams from level 3 -high school to PhD.

Since Islam and the Quran in general caters only up to Level 3, those individuals with higher spiritual intelligence will seek out higher knowledge that cater for level 4 and higher or leave Islam to seek for higher knowledge elsewhere.

Within the Islam community those Muslims who seek higher knowledge than what the Quran provides GENERALLY, belongs to the Islam Mystics. Example the Sufis, Mu`tazila (المعتزلة‎ al-muʿtazilah) and others. They are considered as heretics by the Muslim majority.

The Sufis comprised various schools and cater for different higher levels of spiritual knowledge.

Here is a note on the Mutazila.
Mu`tazila (Arabic: المعتزلة‎ al-muʿtazilah) is a school of Islamic theology based on reason and rational thoughtthat flourished in the cities of Basra and Baghdad, both in present-day Iraq, during the 8th–10th centuries. The adherents of the Mu`tazili school are best known for their denying the status of the Qur'an as uncreated and co-eternal with God. From this premise, the Mu`tazili school of Kalam proceeded to posit that the injunctions of God are accessible to rational thought and inquiry: because knowledge is derived from reason, reason is the "final arbiter" in distinguishing right from wrong.[ It follows, in Mu`tazili reasoning, that "sacred precedent" is not an effective means of determining what is just, as what is obligatory in religion is only obligatory "by virtue of reason." -wiki

I am not sure about you. What I noted you are full of primal fears on what happened after death and thus cling to Islam by the skin of your teeth.

However, I believe, a person who has higher spiritual inclinations [higher SQ] will make an attempt to seek higher spiritual knowledge and most likely to gravitate towards Sufism, the Mu`tazila schools of thought, others, or elsewhere. They will do it secretly for fear of being killed or shunned or openly if they do not deviate too far from the majority's Islamism.


Last edited by Continuum; 08-18-2015 at 09:09 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2015, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 183,852 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Islam is not a new religion and the Qur'an was the same revelation as what was revealed to all the prior Prophets and in the Holy Scriptures of the Torah, Psalms, and the Gospel of Jesus.

The ayyats you list are not fully understood when read as stand alone verses, one needs to read the full discourse eash was revealed in--Note the full surah just the 9 or so lines that make up the discourse it was revealed in. That can be found by reading a Tafsir such as the one by Maududi

Syed Abu-Ala' Maududi's Chapter Introductions to the Qur'an
I do not appreciate distortions. You stated, "Islam is not a new religion and the Qur'an was the same revelation as what was revealed to all the prior Prophets and in the Holy Scriptures of the Torah, Psalms, and the Gospel of Jesus." That is not true. The Qur'an was written in the six and seventh centuries after the Torah, Psalms, and gospel of Jesus. Therefore, the Qur'an is a new religion. The only way out of this dilemma is to prove Allah is eternal, therefore what Allah decried is good for all of eternity. Well, the Qur'an and the Bible claim the OT lord is God, and therefore eternal. What is you argument for Allah being eternal and therefore superior to the OT Lord?

I have read the Qur'an and understand it. It is a very hostile book, claiming Allah to be God, and furthermore claiming, as those who have posted on this forum, that infidels (those who don't believe
Allah is God) are condemned to hell. It appears to be a double standard. You can criticize Judaism and Christianity, but you cannot criticize Islam. Why Is that?

I don't want to start a religious war, I just want to find the truth. Why can't you criticize Islam?

Here is a question for Muslims. If your god is superior to the Jewish Lord, why does the Qur'an use the Jewish Bible? In other words, if Allah is God he should discredit the Jewish Lord, not use Jewish holy books to makeup a new religion. I don't recall any mention of Allah in the Jewish holy books, or in the Christian New Testament. What gave Allah the right to claim superiority over Judaism and Christianity?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top