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Old 08-19-2015, 03:24 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Higher spiritual knowledge has nothing to do with the Jews as you presented above.

Within academic, we have a range of knowledge from lowest
1. kindergarten -
2. grade schools -
3. High School -college,
4. graduate,
5. post grads
6. PhD - the highest

Similarly in spirituality/religion there is some sort of grading from lowest to the highest.
The highest level of spiritual presented in the Quran [I believe] is level 3.

Highest does not mean the best and optimal for an individual.
What is best for the individual is his/her level of spiritual must fit his learning level or spiritual intelligence quotient [SQ]. Analogically, generally a person with low IQ and general intelligence will not be able to pass exams from level 3 -high school to PhD.

Since Islam and the Quran in general caters only up to Level 3, those individuals with higher spiritual intelligence will seek out higher knowledge that cater for level 4 and higher or leave Islam to seek for higher knowledge elsewhere.

Within the Islam community those Muslims who seek higher knowledge than what the Quran provides GENERALLY, belongs to the Islam Mystics. Example the Sufis, Mu`tazila (المعتزلة‎ al-muʿtazilah) and others. They are considered as heretics by the Muslim majority.

The Sufis comprised various schools and cater for different higher levels of spiritual knowledge.

Here is a note on the Mutazila.
Mu`tazila (Arabic: المعتزلة‎ al-muʿtazilah) is a school of Islamic theology based on reason and rational thoughtthat flourished in the cities of Basra and Baghdad, both in present-day Iraq, during the 8th–10th centuries. The adherents of the Mu`tazili school are best known for their denying the status of the Qur'an as uncreated and co-eternal with God. From this premise, the Mu`tazili school of Kalam proceeded to posit that the injunctions of God are accessible to rational thought and inquiry: because knowledge is derived from reason, reason is the "final arbiter" in distinguishing right from wrong.[ It follows, in Mu`tazili reasoning, that "sacred precedent" is not an effective means of determining what is just, as what is obligatory in religion is only obligatory "by virtue of reason." -wiki

I am not sure about you. What I noted you are full of primal fears on what happened after death and thus cling to Islam by the skin of your teeth.

However, I believe, a person who has higher spiritual inclinations [higher SQ] will make an attempt to seek higher spiritual knowledge and most likely to gravitate towards Sufism, the Mu`tazila schools of thought, others, or elsewhere. They will do it secretly for fear of being killed or shunned or openly if they do not deviate too far from the majority's Islamism.

The Mutazila are a respected group and they are middle in between many Muslims sects, and their way of thinking I do respect them.
But to say: higher than the Quran; this is wrong: the Quran is the highest and even higher than the Prophet who brought it from his Lord.
Moreover, 'spirituality' and your grading it; I don't agree with you.
Some Sufi are enthusiastic and even heretic as you called it.

You seem you know Arabic; I think almost you are a Christian Arabian, maybe.
I put you with the group who seek after the 'mutashabih' or the ambiguous ayat of the Quran in order to bar people from the way of God.
Quran 3: 7, which means:
{So those, in whose hearts is a deviation [from the truth]; these follow the 'analogous' [ayat] therein c: seeking to seduce [people and turn them away d], and seeking to interpret it. e
But none but God [only] does know its interpretation f; }
.................................................. ..........................
c and take it as an argument to their falsehood.
d i.e. seeking to confound the weak among people to turn them back from the religion of the Islam: so they say to them: if this had been revealed from God, then it would have been plain and understandable; but these are the words of Mohammed which he said of his own accord.
e i.e. seeking after its meaning and interpretation, so they say:
"What is the meaning of His saying [in the Quran 2: 174
(they [will] eat in their bellies nothing but fire.)
So is the eating in the belly or by the mouth?
Moreover they say: what is the meaning of His saying [in the Quran 37: 64]
(It is a tree growing in the bottom of Hell.)
So how can any tree survive in the fire: living without burning!?"
And so on, they objected to the allegorical ambiguous ayat: denying them and mocking them, while the Prophet said to them: "As such has it been revealed."
And it is narrated that Abu Bakr asked the Prophet – salam to him – "Have you become grey-haired?" He answered: "This grey hair is because of such sooras (or chapters of the Quran) as chapter 81 (When the sun shall be 'divided into many spheres'.), and chapter 100 ([I swear] by that rushed forth, crying out!), and chapter 86 ([I swear] by the sky and [its] 'night visitant'!); and in another prophetic tradition, he said: "My hair has grown grey because of the chapter 11 and its adjacent chapters."
Therefore, God answered them:
f i.e. none knows the interpretation of the allegorical ambiguous ayat in the Quran and their implication, but only God alone; because the allegorical ambiguous ayat tell about the past, foretell about the future and explain about the ethereal world: the world of souls; for you did not attend the past in order to know it, neither the future to understand it, nor do you understand anything about the ethereal world, because you have not yet gone to it.
For the tree which is in the root of Hell is ethereal not material as do you imagine, and the ether does not burn even if it be in fire; and you have something like it which is the asbestos: it does not burn in fire whatever time it may be exposed to the fire.
While about the eating in the belly: you have something like it: the fetus in his mother's womb: he is nourished via the umbilical cord, and does not feed by his mouth; and as such the people of the fire, because they are ethereal spirits, the fire enters their interior from everywhere of their organs."

The interpretation is according to the interpreter of the Quran and the Bible, the late Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

Anyhow, the Quran itself is higher than the prophet himself, and even higher than the angel who carried it.
I may explain this later on.

Last edited by roar; 08-19-2015 at 03:39 PM..
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:02 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl012 View Post
I do not appreciate distortions. You stated, "Islam is not a new religion and the Qur'an was the same revelation as what was revealed to all the prior Prophets and in the Holy Scriptures of the Torah, Psalms, and the Gospel of Jesus." That is not true. The Qur'an was written in the six and seventh centuries after the Torah, Psalms, and gospel of Jesus. Therefore, the Qur'an is a new religion. The only way out of this dilemma is to prove Allah is eternal, therefore what Allah decried is good for all of eternity. Well, the Qur'an and the Bible claim the OT lord is God, and therefore eternal. What is you argument for Allah being eternal and therefore superior to the OT Lord?

I have read the Qur'an and understand it. It is a very hostile book, claiming Allah to be God, and furthermore claiming, as those who have posted on this forum, that infidels (those who don't believe
Allah is God) are condemned to hell. It appears to be a double standard. You can criticize Judaism and Christianity, but you cannot criticize Islam. Why Is that?

I don't want to start a religious war, I just want to find the truth. Why can't you criticize Islam?

Here is a question for Muslims. If your god is superior to the Jewish Lord, why does the Qur'an use the Jewish Bible? In other words, if Allah is God he should discredit the Jewish Lord, not use Jewish holy books to makeup a new religion. I don't recall any mention of Allah in the Jewish holy books, or in the Christian New Testament. What gave Allah the right to claim superiority over Judaism and Christianity?
There is just one God(swt) and he was/is worshipped by Jews, Sabeeans, Christians, Muslims perhaps others unknown to us.

Islam is not the name of a religion, it is a verb, the action of Submitting to God(swt). He has many names--Elohim, Hashem, El, Eli (in Aramaic) Allah, and countless others, the Qur'an uses 99 names for him but these are just an infintestimally smal percentage of all his names.

All people who worship/submit to the one God are performing the act of Islam. He has sent Messengers to all people of all times the Hebrew, Sabeean, Christian, Muslim Scripture name just a few such as Adam, Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Lot, John, Jesus, Muhammad. they were all given the same message worded for the time and place with The Qur'an being the final time it will be revealed.

I do not criticize Judaism, Sabeeans, or Christianity. They all worship the Same God(swt) I do and it is probable others also do. The issue is many have lost their way and no longer follow what their Scriptures taught.
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 183,955 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is just one God(swt) and he was/is worshipped by Jews, Sabeeans, Christians, Muslims perhaps others unknown to us.

Islam is not the name of a religion, it is a verb, the action of Submitting to God(swt). He has many names--Elohim, Hashem, El, Eli (in Aramaic) Allah, and countless others, the Qur'an uses 99 names for him but these are just an infintestimally smal percentage of all his names.

All people who worship/submit to the one God are performing the act of Islam. He has sent Messengers to all people of all times the Hebrew, Sabeean, Christian, Muslim Scripture name just a few such as Adam, Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Lot, John, Jesus, Muhammad. they were all given the same message worded for the time and place with The Qur'an being the final time it will be revealed.

I do not criticize Judaism, Sabeeans, or Christianity. They all worship the Same God(swt) I do and it is probable others also do. The issue is many have lost their way and no longer follow what their Scriptures taught.
If what you say is true, why does the Qur'an demand believers kill Christians and Jews. It sounds like you are doing a scholarly review having little to do with what Muslims believe and how they act out their beliefs. How do you explain Jihad, it is written in the Qur'an. Are you suggesting Muslims ignore those versus. Obviously, in the real world, they don't! How do we bring an end to Al Qaeda and ISIS? Are they wrong in their interpretation of the Qur'an? If you read the Islamic holy book, you will discover those terrorist are following Allah's commandments. How do you reconcile that?

Where is there evidence that we all worship to same god. Isn't that just a theory, one that hardly anyone accepts.

Again, if all religions worship the same god, why all the wars and millions of people who have died for their religion. Sorry, believers actions do not relate to your ideas about religion and God.
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Old 08-20-2015, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl012 View Post
If what you say is true, why does the Qur'an demand believers kill Christians and Jews. It sounds like you are doing a scholarly review having little to do with what Muslims believe and how they act out their beliefs. How do you explain Jihad, it is written in the Qur'an. Are you suggesting Muslims ignore those versus. Obviously, in the real world, they don't! How do we bring an end to Al Qaeda and ISIS? Are they wrong in their interpretation of the Qur'an? If you read the Islamic holy book, you will discover those terrorist are following Allah's commandments. How do you reconcile that?

Where is there evidence that we all worship to same god. Isn't that just a theory, one that hardly anyone accepts.

Again, if all religions worship the same god, why all the wars and millions of people who have died for their religion. Sorry, believers actions do not relate to your ideas about religion and God.
We are not commanded to kill Christians, Jews or anyone else.

Jihad means "Strife" we all face strife. You included. It does not mean a physical confrontation, physical Jihad has been only rarely Justified. Most of us fight our Jihad with words and tryingto show what we believe to be true. Not much different from your Jihad of coming here to point out we Muslims are wrong in your opinion.

Wars exist because there are people that want what other people have. Usually land or wealth. Many if not most wars are fought among people of the same Faith.

I and every Muslim I know worship the God(saws) that was revealed by Moses, Abraham, Noah, Lot, Job, Jesus (Peace be upon all of them and revealed in the Holy scripture namely the Torah, Psalms, Gospel of Jesus and the Qur'an. Most Christians, Jews and Sabeeans worship the same God(swt) and probably other people also.

I am not too certain if al-Qaeda is an actual group. It seems to be a catch all name the Media used for all terrorists.

How to stop them I do not know, as they have yet to be accuratly identified.

ISIS could be easy to stop. Destroy the oil fields their wealth comes from and they will cut off their major source of income.
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Old 08-20-2015, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 183,955 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We are not commanded to kill Christians, Jews or anyone else.

Jihad means "Strife" we all face strife. You included. It does not mean a physical confrontation, physical Jihad has been only rarely Justified. Most of us fight our Jihad with words and tryingto show what we believe to be true. Not much different from your Jihad of coming here to point out we Muslims are wrong in your opinion.

Wars exist because there are people that want what other people have. Usually land or wealth. Many if not most wars are fought among people of the same Faith.

I and every Muslim I know worship the God(saws) that was revealed by Moses, Abraham, Noah, Lot, Job, Jesus (Peace be upon all of them and revealed in the Holy scripture namely the Torah, Psalms, Gospel of Jesus and the Qur'an. Most Christians, Jews and Sabeeans worship the same God(swt) and probably other people also.

I am not too certain if al-Qaeda is an actual group. It seems to be a catch all name the Media used for all terrorists.

How to stop them I do not know, as they have yet to be accuratly identified.

ISIS could be easy to stop. Destroy the oil fields their wealth comes from and they will cut off their major source of income.
Yes, I understand the meaning of Jihad in the Qur'an, but, evidently, Muslim terrorist don't understand. As for the true meaning, You need to look at history, there have been many wars fought over religious beliefs, it is going on now in the Middle East.

Present evidence, based on actions, of Muslims worshipping the Old Testament Lord, or the same God as the Jews worship. If it were so, why do so many Muslims hate and "strive" to kill Jews. You are proposing a ridiculous idea.

You say, "I am not too certain if al-Qaeda is an actual group. It seems to be a catch all name the Media used for all terrorists." If the group doesn't exist, why did the US government blame them for 9-11? Did they lie? Then, we know about US troops going the Afghanistan to fight them. Were they fighting phantoms? You do admit ISIS exists. Well, aren't they obeying Allah? In the Qur'an, Allah says to kill infidels, that, of course, includes Christians and Jews. To make Islam a peaceful religion, you need to "rewrite" the Qur'an. Evidently, according to Muslim terrorist, "strive" means killing infidels.

Present evidence for Muslims worshiping the Jewish God? If it were so, we would not have conflicts and wars between Muslims and Christians. You need to confront Middle East turmoil. Ignoring religion as it relates to world-wide conflict, wars, and the shape of history is to deny reality.

Present proof for all those diverse religions worshipping the same god. If you recall, the OT Lord admonished his chosen people for worshiping pagan gods. Now, you are saying they are the same god. You need to take this up with the OT Lord. He hated pagan gods.

Last edited by earl012; 08-20-2015 at 10:52 PM..
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Old 08-20-2015, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl012 View Post
Yes, I understand the meaning of Jihad in the Qur'an, but, evidently, Muslim terrorist don't understand. As for the true meaning, You need to look at history, there have been many wars fought over religious beliefs, it is going on now in the Middle East.

.......

Evidently, according to Muslim terrorist, "strive" means killing infidels.

.......
There are 300+ verses that support offensive jihad in the Quran which are in the Medina phases and being the later verses, they are in principle and doctrine [ideology] the 'spearhead' of the religion.

The problem is there is no central authority within Islam to decide which interpretation is right or wrong. If we do a checklists of what the jihadists did in compliance with what is dictated in the Quran, they would have passed with distinction, A++.
As for the moderates, at most they will get a C.

The truth is from what you have emphasized, i.e. 'evidently' in your post.
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Old 08-21-2015, 02:31 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
The Mutazila are a respected group and they are middle in between many Muslims sects, and their way of thinking I do respect them.
But to say: higher than the Quran; this is wrong: the Quran is the highest and even higher than the Prophet who brought it from his Lord.
Moreover, 'spirituality' and your grading it; I don't agree with you.
Some Sufi are enthusiastic and even heretic as you called it.
If you respect the Mutazila, then you have heretical thinking.

I said the Mutazila approach is higher than the Quran because there is no specific provision for such approaches as adopted by the Mutazila, i.e.
From this premise, the Mu`tazili school of Kalam proceeded to posit that the injunctions of God are accessible to rational thought and inquiry: because knowledge is derived from reason, reason is the "final arbiter" in distinguishing right from wrong. -wiki
There is no way the Quran will accept 'reason is the final arbiter' to decide what is right from wrong.
I don't expect you to agree with my grading as you don't seem to have the capability to understand the point.

Note the Quran was authored by a man [Muhammad] or a group of man and there is no way you can prove God exist to inspired a Quran in Muhammad.

Within Sufism, there are various schools and scholars of grading from low to high. I think Al Ghazali is a lower grade Sufi in comparison to Jalâluddîn Rumi.


Quote:
You seem you know Arabic; I think almost you are a Christian Arabian,
maybe.
I put you with the group who seek after the 'mutashabih' or the ambiguous
ayat of the Quran in order to bar people from the way of God.
I am not-a-theist [see Location above] and I do not know Arabic except a few words.
I seek to understand [not agree] with the Quran as a concerned citizen of humanity in regards to the terrible evils and violence that are committed by SOME Muslim who are inspired by the Quran. Hopefully, I will be able to propose solutions to resolve such evils and violence.

You don't seem to care about others except yourself in order to ensure you are rewarded in heaven, which is false in the first place as God cannot be proven to be true.

Quote:
Quran 3: 7, which means:
{So those, in whose hearts is a deviation [from the truth]; these follow the 'analogous' [ayat] therein c: seeking to seduce [people and turn them away d], and seeking to interpret it. e
But none but God [only] does know its interpretation f; }
.................................................. ..........................
c and take it as an argument to their falsehood.
d i.e. seeking to confound the weak among people to turn them back from the religion of the Islam: so they say to them: if this had been revealed from God, then it would have been plain and understandable; but these are the words of Mohammed which he said of his own accord.
e i.e. seeking after its meaning and interpretation, so they say:
"What is the meaning of His saying [in the Quran 2: 174
(they [will] eat in their bellies nothing but fire.)
So is the eating in the belly or by the mouth?
Moreover they say: what is the meaning of His saying [in the Quran 37: 64]
(It is a tree growing in the bottom of Hell.)
So how can any tree survive in the fire: living without burning!?"
And so on, they objected to the allegorical ambiguous ayat: denying them and mocking them, while the Prophet said to them: "As such has it been revealed."
And it is narrated that Abu Bakr asked the Prophet – salam to him – "Have you become grey-haired?" He answered: "This grey hair is because of such sooras (or chapters of the Quran) as chapter 81 (When the sun shall be 'divided into many spheres'.), and chapter 100 ([I swear] by that rushed forth, crying out!), and chapter 86 ([I swear] by the sky and [its] 'night visitant'!); and in another prophetic tradition, he said: "My hair has grown grey because of the chapter 11 and its adjacent chapters."
Therefore, God answered them:
f i.e. none knows the interpretation of the allegorical ambiguous ayat in the Quran and their implication, but only God alone; because the allegorical ambiguous ayat tell about the past, foretell about the future and explain about the ethereal world: the world of souls; for you did not attend the past in order to know it, neither the future to understand it, nor do you understand anything about the ethereal world, because you have not yet gone to it.
For the tree which is in the root of Hell is ethereal not material as do you imagine, and the ether does not burn even if it be in fire; and you have something like it which is the asbestos: it does not burn in fire whatever time it may be exposed to the fire.
While about the eating in the belly: you have something like it: the fetus in his mother's womb: he is nourished via the umbilical cord, and does not feed by his mouth; and as such the people of the fire, because they are ethereal spirits, the fire enters their interior from everywhere of their organs."

The interpretation is according to the interpreter of the Quran and the Bible, the late Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

Anyhow, the Quran itself is higher than the prophet himself, and even higher than the angel who carried it.
I may explain this later on.
If you want to have any credibility to the above verse you need to prove God exist first. If there is no God, the Quran can only come from man and this is open to corruption and subjective interests.
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Old 08-21-2015, 02:58 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is just one God(swt) and he was/is worshipped by Jews, Sabeeans, Christians, Muslims perhaps others unknown to us.

Islam is not the name of a religion, it is a verb, the action of Submitting to God(swt). He has many names--Elohim, Hashem, El, Eli (in Aramaic) Allah, and countless others, the Qur'an uses 99 names for him but these are just an infintestimally smal percentage of all his names.

All people who worship/submit to the one God are performing the act of Islam. He has sent Messengers to all people of all times the Hebrew, Sabeean, Christian, Muslim Scripture name just a few such as Adam, Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Lot, John, Jesus, Muhammad. they were all given the same message worded for the time and place with The Qur'an being the final time it will be revealed.

I do not criticize Judaism, Sabeeans, or Christianity. They all worship the Same God(swt) I do and it is probable others also do. The issue is many have lost their way and no longer follow what their Scriptures taught.
You are twisting and deflecting from the issue.

Woodrow LI: Islam is not the name of a religion, it is a verb, the action of Submitting to God(swt).
This is like saying 'apple' is not the name of a fruit, it is a manifestation of the process of something coming out of a tree growing in a farm and grown by a farmer.

This is how we should approach the point;

1. Religion
In the human world of knowledge, there are religions.
A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence. wiki
Abrahamic religions (also Semitic religions) are monotheistic religions of West Asian[SIZE=2][1][/SIZE] origin, emphasizing and tracing their common origin to Abraham[SIZE=2][2][/SIZE] or recognizing a spiritual tradition identified with him.
One of the Abrahamic religions is ISLAM.

Therefore Islam is the name of a religion.

2. Core Principles and Practice of Religions
It is only after recognizing the existence of religions that we look at the core principles and practices of the religions.
One of the core principles of religions is submission, surrender to God.
One such religion is Islam.

Therefore Islam is the name of a religion of which one of its core principles is the submission* to God.
* btw note my OP on 'Believing' is more superior to 'Submission' per Quran.

Islam is not the action of Submitting to God(swt). The proper presentation is 'Islam is the name of a religion of which one of its core principles is the submission* to God.'
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl012 View Post
Yes, I understand the meaning of Jihad in the Qur'an, but, evidently, Muslim terrorist don't understand. As for the true meaning, You need to look at history, there have been many wars fought over religious beliefs, it is going on now in the Middle East.

Present evidence, based on actions, of Muslims worshipping the Old Testament Lord, or the same God as the Jews worship. If it were so, why do so many Muslims hate and "strive" to kill Jews. You are proposing a ridiculous idea.

You say, "I am not too certain if al-Qaeda is an actual group. It seems to be a catch all name the Media used for all terrorists." If the group doesn't exist, why did the US government blame them for 9-11? Did they lie? Then, we know about US troops going the Afghanistan to fight them. Were they fighting phantoms? You do admit ISIS exists. Well, aren't they obeying Allah? In the Qur'an, Allah says to kill infidels, that, of course, includes Christians and Jews. To make Islam a peaceful religion, you need to "rewrite" the Qur'an. Evidently, according to Muslim terrorist, "strive" means killing infidels.

Present evidence for Muslims worshiping the Jewish God? If it were so, we would not have conflicts and wars between Muslims and Christians. You need to confront Middle East turmoil. Ignoring religion as it relates to world-wide conflict, wars, and the shape of history is to deny reality.

Present proof for all those diverse religions worshipping the same god. If you recall, the OT Lord admonished his chosen people for worshiping pagan gods. Now, you are saying they are the same god. You need to take this up with the OT Lord. He hated pagan gods.
I lived in the mideast as a Christian Evangelist quite often over a 20 year period of time and never once was threatened or had any fear of being a Christian. some of the Countries I lived in: Morocco, Saudi, Iran, Iraq but this was mostly in the 1960s and 70s.

But if you have not noticed ISIS is killing mostly Muslims, the same can be said for al-Qida or people claiming to be al-Qaida.

To understand the Palestine/Israel conflict one needs to go back to1946 when the Palestinians were pushed from their homes and forced into Gaza and the West Bank.
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Old 08-21-2015, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 183,955 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I lived in the mideast as a Christian Evangelist quite often over a 20 year period of time and never once was threatened or had any fear of being a Christian. some of the Countries I lived in: Morocco, Saudi, Iran, Iraq but this was mostly in the 1960s and 70s.

But if you have not noticed ISIS is killing mostly Muslims, the same can be said for al-Qida or people claiming to be al-Qaida.

To understand the Palestine/Israel conflict one needs to go back to1946 when the Palestinians were pushed from their homes and forced into Gaza and the West Bank.
If you had been reading the news, recently, ISIS has beheaded many Christians. I am not saying there are not peaceful Muslims, I am referring to recent news events and the spread of ISIS in the Middle East, and even Africa. I also understand there are continual conflicts between Shiite and Sunni sects of Islam. Those conflicts will continue until Muslims can decide which Allah is the right one.

I understand the problems caused by Jews moving back to their holy land. Obviously, Muslims don't consider it their land. They should take it up with the OT Lord who promised it to them. I thought Muslims and Christians worshipped the same God. Evidently, based on actions and their different religions, they don't. Again, there is little or no evidence for Muslims, Christians, and Jews worshipping the same god. It is all hypothetical, a fairyland world. What we have today is similar to what was happening in OT times. There is the OT Lord, and all of those pagan gods. I suppose the OT Lord is old fashion. Someone should straighten Him out.
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