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Old 03-16-2016, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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QUOTE=Khalif;43373557]This is where you do not have a fine tooth comb that you could use. You may borrow mine instead.

Within Islam, one submits to Allah after believing Allah. Without believng Allah, submitting cannot be to Allah but to someone else, which is not within Islam but outside Islam.

No non-believer can be Muslim. So Allah did not "imply" but you "imply" so.


Then there could be no implication that they were Muslims.

Correct.

You are imagining too much here. Allah never said that they were Muslims. So no contradiction.

To understand there is no contradiction, you cannot assume two 'believe'. Allah said that they did not believe at all. That rules out any kind of 'believe' is involved. The ony logical conclusion you can draw is that they were submitting to other than Allah, which is not Islam nor it makes them Muslims.

But Allah ruled out any kind of 'believe' when He said in 49:14 that they did not believe and it hadn't even entered their hearts. Allah has left no room for you to create another category of 'believe'.

And you can do so on Allah's behalf even when you do not believe Him?[/quote]Note my reply to you on the same point in the above posts.

Quote:
To understand there is no contradiction, you cannot assume two 'believe'. Allah said that they did not believe at all. That rules out any kind of 'believe' is involved. The only logical conclusion you can draw is that they were submitting to other than Allah, which is not Islam nor it makes them Muslims.
You should update your knowledge on semantics.

I do not assume two 'believe'.
It is a fact of linguistics there are terms [e.g. believe, love, spiritual, religion] with a range of meanings and senses.
In the context of 49:14 the term 'believe' is used a difference sense from its loosest sense.
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Old 03-17-2016, 12:10 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Understandable and quite logical:

Unfortunately it opens the door for someone's personal opinion as to what the stimuli are.
In general and in our case, it is not a question of someone's personal opinion.
The stimuli will naturally trigger the evil prone without their conscious deliberations, it is almost instinctual for them due to their inherent nature.
It just like porno stuffs stimulating a testosterone-pumped adult instinctively without their conscious deliberation to be stimulated.

So, NO! it is not for someone's opinion, especially of the 20% of evil prone to decide the stimuli to provoke them. They will naturally react and be stimulated by evil laden elements, e.g. violent elements and other negative elements.

This is why these evil prone people who react by instincts should not be exposed to evil laden elements regardless of their contexts.
Unfortunately and it is a fact the Quran contain evil and violent elements presented in a dualistic manner [Duck-Rabbit] which naturally trigger and spur SOME Muslims who are evil prone [pool of 300 millions ] to commit terrible evils and violence around the world. This is a fact no normal human should deny.

Quote:
Using that logic the news media should not report incidents of violence as it may encourage violence in others. After a hoffific crime there often are 'copy cat crimes" committed.

In the same light notifications of the execution of criminals should not be published.as it may give some people the idea it is permissible to kill people that have wronged them.
The news media can still report of incidents in a plain oral and texts as news and warning.
But all violent and evil incidents should not be presented as big headlines with explicit pictorial and videos which are repeated 24 hours around the world as in CNN, BBC, Fox and other news channels.
The point is no matter how one explain such evil incidents are evil and no one should commit such evils, there will be those who are natural, instinctive and evil prone who will be triggered by these news to commit evils as copy-cats or in their own ways.

The above is the same principle that is applicable to the Quran with its evil laden elements and SOME [pool of 300 million potential] evil prone Muslims.

If the evil elements, which are not critical to any religion, are removed from the Quran, then I am 100% certain there will be no Quran-inspired-violence and evils. BUT ...


Quote:
While I can understand how a non-Muslim can view the Qur'an as containing violence, there is no excuse for any Muslim to find any ayyat to be promoting violence. If a Muslim things the Qur'an promotes violence, they do not understand the Qur'an.
It is not a question of no excuse or think the Quran promotes violence.

As I explained above there are 20% of Muslims [like all humans] who are naturally and unfortunately born with a tendency to commit evil as embedded in their DNA.
It is difficult to alter the DNA, thus the best approach is to control the external stimuli.

As for a these 20% of who are born with natural tendency to evil, they will just comply with what the Quran dictate from their perspectives and inclinations and do what is necessary to obey Allah. These evil prone Muslims would not dare to go against Allah's words.

This is why I am arguing the Quran should not have included so much evil laden elements as Allah's words. The point is Allah is the Muslims' savior and those Muslims who are evil prone will comply with Allah's words to the 't'.
The inclusion of evil laden elements in the Quran is a weakness of the Quran.

In contrast, Eastern religions like Buddhism, Jainism and others are well aware of such a weakness of human nature and they avoid as much as possible to include any DIRECTLY LEADING evil elements in their holy texts which could influence their evil prone believers to commit evils and violence in the name of their religion.
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Old 03-17-2016, 01:10 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
QUOTE=Khalif;43373557]This is where you do not have a fine tooth comb that you could use. You may borrow mine instead.

Within Islam, one submits to Allah after believing Allah. Without believng Allah, submitting cannot be to Allah but to someone else, which is not within Islam but outside Islam.

No non-believer can be Muslim. So Allah did not "imply" but you "imply" so.


Then there could be no implication that they were Muslims.

Correct.

You are imagining too much here. Allah never said that they were Muslims. So no contradiction.

To understand there is no contradiction, you cannot assume two 'believe'. Allah said that they did not believe at all. That rules out any kind of 'believe' is involved. The ony logical conclusion you can draw is that they were submitting to other than Allah, which is not Islam nor it makes them Muslims.

But Allah ruled out any kind of 'believe' when He said in 49:14 that they did not believe and it hadn't even entered their hearts. Allah has left no room for you to create another category of 'believe'.

And you can do so on Allah's behalf even when you do not believe Him?
Note my reply to you on the same point in the above posts.

You should update your knowledge on semantics.

I do not assume two 'believe'.
It is a fact of linguistics there are terms [e.g. believe, love, spiritual, religion] with a range of meanings and senses.
In the context of 49:14 the term 'believe' is used a difference sense from its loosest sense.


You either believe or do not believe. There is no loose believe or believe proper or believe improper.

You are creating these categories in ignorance.
Even if one believes 0.000000000000001% (your way of believing by numbers), the believing has entered one's heart. If it hasn't entered your heart, you are unbeliever no matter how much you worship me.
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Old 03-17-2016, 01:30 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You either believe or do not believe. There is no loose believe or believe proper or believe improper.

You are creating these categories in ignorance.
Even if one believes 0.000000000000001% (your way of believing by numbers), the believing has entered one's heart. If it hasn't entered your heart, you are unbeliever no matter how much you worship me.[/b][/color]
You are very ignorant of semantics.
There are degrees and different types and sense in relation to 'believe' just as with other terms which are loose, e.g. love, religion, spiritual, and the likes.
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
There is the loose sense of 'believe' which is superficial.
There is the specific sense of 'believe' with a various degrees of personal conviction.
This is accord with 49:14 and based on my understanding within the whole context of the Quran after reading it more than 50 times.

In contrast you have only read the Quran 6-7 times and by default as a believer you must be emotionally bias and as subjective as possible.

Note in the context of the whole Quran, note this verse 49:17;
49:17. [Pickthall] They [Wandering Arabs] make it favour unto thee (Muhammad) that they have surrendered (unto Him).
Say [O Muhammad]: Deem not your Surrender a favour unto me; nay, but Allah doth confer a favour on you [Wandering Arabs], inasmuch as He hath led you to the Faith, if ye are earnest.
49:17 [Ali] They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.
The above verses indicated the wandering Arabs were Muslims [have embraced Islam] in that case.

Therefore to resolve the contradiction I raised earlier, we need to interpret "believe" in two different senses.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-17-2016 at 01:46 AM..
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Old 03-17-2016, 02:03 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are very ignorant of semantics.
There are degrees and different types and sense in relation to 'believe' just as with other terms which are loose, e.g. love, religion, spiritual, and the likes.
How an unbeliever even know what believing really is when he is completely ignorant about it and as it hasn't even entered his heart yet?

Quote:
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

There is the loose sense of 'believe' which is superficial.
The verse is crystal clear; no believe at all, believe has not even entered their heart. This makes the submit to someone without believe in Allah.

Quote:
There is the specific sense of 'believe' with a various degrees of personal conviction.
As I had explained previously, Eeman as conviction can be weak or strong but there has to be believe entering one's heart before his Eeman can be either weak or stronger. Without believe entering heart, there is no Eeman, no conviction and no believe.

Quote:
This is accord with 49:14 and based on my understanding within the whole context of the Quran after reading it more than 50 times.
The problem you have is quite undersandable; you do not understand what believing is within Islam and the Qur'an.

Quote:
In contrast you have only read the Quran 6-7 times and by default as a believer you must be emotionally bias and as subjective as possible.
By default, as unbeliever, you do not know what is believe in Islam and, therefore, are emotionally bias.
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Old 03-17-2016, 02:22 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note in the context of the whole Quran, note this verse 49:17;
49:17. [Pickthall] They [Wandering Arabs] make it favour unto thee (Muhammad) that they have surrendered (unto Him).
Say [O Muhammad]: Deem not your Surrender a favour unto me; nay, but Allah doth confer a favour on you [Wandering Arabs], inasmuch as He hath led you to the Faith, if ye are earnest.
49:17 [Ali] They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.
The above verses indicated the wandering Arabs were Muslims [have embraced Islam] in that case.
Thank you for quoting this verse. I was holding it back instead of adding on to your confusion. Now you are really confused that you have quoted this verse which proves my point that wandering Arabs were submitting to Muhammad only as faith hadn't even entered their hearts yet.

This verse is saying that Allah has brought you to faith, by sending Muhammad with His message, but 49:14 confirms that the faith has not yet entered their hearts. It is like taking the horses to the water but the horses are not yet drinking it.
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Old 03-17-2016, 02:24 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
How an unbeliever even know what believing really is when he is completely ignorant about it and as it hasn't even entered his heart yet?

The verse is crystal clear; no believe at all, believe has not even entered their heart. This makes the submit to someone without believe in Allah.

As I had explained previously, Eeman as conviction can be weak or strong but there has to be believe entering one's heart before his Eeman can be either weak or stronger. Without believe entering heart, there is no Eeman, no conviction and no believe.

The problem you have is quite undersandable; you do not understand what believing is within Islam and the Qur'an.

By default, as unbeliever, you do not know what is believe in Islam and, therefore, are emotionally bias.
"enter into his hearts" meant one has a more serious convictions based on various efforts or events. 'hearts' in this case refer to 'mind' and 'brain' and thus personal conviction.

A person may 'believe' [loose sense] ghosts exist based on intuition, guess, stories by others, etc.
However if a person "see" a ghost, then his believe is different with a greater conviction because he had personally saw a 'real' ghost with his own eyes.
There are many people who reported they have seen ghosts, but in reality this is merely illusory.
However their personal experience of 'seeing' ghosts change their sense of believe from the loose sense to a more specific sense with much greater conviction.

It is the same with one who believe in UFO because to him it is very possible based on intuition, his own reasoning, etc. However his belief is different when he really see an UFO and with pictures to prove. Again this is illusory but nevertheless this 'believe' supported with his own experience is different from a casual believer of UFOs.


Where you are wrong is you think Allah meant the wandering Arabs has submitted to someone else.
Note I mentioned 49:17 where it is implied the wandering Arabs had already embraced Islam, therefore they can only submit to Allah and no one else.

Here is one verse 17:19 which demonstrate a higher degree of 'believe' as a Muslim which would be different from the believe [looser sense] which precede submit.
17:19. And whoso [Muslims] desireth the Hereafter and striveth for it with the effort necessary, being a believer [Muslim]; for such, their effort findeth favour (with their Lord).
In this case of a more serious 'believe' a Muslim who had submitted earlier has to put in addition necessary effort. Note Allah did not mention 'submitter' but "believer" with necessary effort.
This concept of a higher degree of 'believe' is mentioned in other verses all over the Quran.

Here is a verse where those with a more serious believer will get greater rewards;
17:21. See how We [Allah] prefer one above another [Muslim], and verily the Hereafter will be greater in degrees and greater in preferment.
In the case of the term 'believe' it is very generic to human beings who all have the same fundamental DNA. This fundamental do not change because one is a Muslims. Muslims eat and sh:t as any other human being.
It is the same with believe & its various senses/types which is the same for ALL human beings. The substance/essence is the same and what vary is only the forms.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-17-2016 at 02:42 AM..
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Old 03-17-2016, 02:50 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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I happen to be reading Chapter 17 chronologically.
Here is a point related to 'submission'.
17:24. And lower [be submissive] unto them [parents] the wing of submission through mercy, and say: My Lord! Have mercy on them both as they [parent] did care for me when I was little.
Note 'submission' refer to a state of one being 'lower' to whoever, in this case 'parents'.
Thus submission to Allah meant primarily a state of surrender to Allah.
The primary meaning of 'submission' do not meant the acts of obeying the commands of Allah.
Note 'submit' and 'submission' are only mentioned 6 times for each in the Quran.

The obeying of commands, worshipping, and the likes has more to do with believing-proper which Allah mentioned in 49:14.
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Old 03-17-2016, 03:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Where you are wrong is you think Allah meant the wandering Arabs has submitted to someone else.
Note I mentioned 49:17 where it is implied the wandering Arabs had already embraced Islam, therefore they can only submit to Allah and no one else.
How could they have embraced Islam without believing and when the faith hadn't even entered their hearts and they were clearly claiming to be doing a favor only to Muhammad by submitting to him???


Quote:
Here is one verse 17:19 w hich demonstrate a higher degree of 'believe' as a Muslim which would be different from the believe [looser sense] which precede submit.
17:19. And whoso [Muslims] desireth the Hereafter and striveth for it with the effort necessary, being a believer [Muslim]; for such, their effort findeth favour (with their Lord).
You are digging a deeper hole for yourself here, the more you quote from the Qur'an. 17:19 proves my point that you have to be a believer first before you can become a Muslim, faith must enter your heart to become a Muslim. Believing is prerequisite to become a Muslim.

Keep doing good work for me!
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Old 03-17-2016, 03:27 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Thank you for quoting this verse. I was holding it back instead of adding on to your confusion. Now you are really confused that you have quoted this verse which proves my point that wandering Arabs were submitting to Muhammad only as faith hadn't even entered their hearts yet.

This verse is saying that Allah has brought you to faith, by sending Muhammad with His message, but 49:14 confirms that the faith has not yet entered their hearts. It is like taking the horses to the water but the horses are not yet drinking it.
You are the one who is confused.
Your assertions are without logic and context.

You stated the wandering Arabs were not Muslims because they have not believe.
Then you insist their submission was submission to some one other than Allah.

49:17 proved you were wrong.
49:17 implied the wandering Arabs were already Muslims in 49:14.
Since they were already Muslims, therefore the 'submission' in 49:14 refer to their submission to Allah and not to some one else.

Therefore the believe in 49:14 refer to a different sense of 'believe' and not the believe in the looser sense that precede 'submission.'

Get it!
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