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Old 03-17-2016, 03:31 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
How could they have embraced Islam without believing and when the faith hadn't even entered their hearts and they were clearly claiming to be doing a favor only to Muhammad by submitting to him???


You are digging a deeper hole for yourself here, the more you quote from the Qur'an. 17:19 proves my point that you have to be a believer first before you can become a Muslim, faith must enter your heart to become a Muslim. Believing is prerequisite to become a Muslim.

Keep doing good work for me!
17:19 do not prove any point that one must believe to be a Muslim.
As I had stated 17:19 demonstrated there is a different degree of 'believe'.

Yes, believing is prerequisite to become a Muslim.
But what you are ignorant and denying is there are various senses of 'believing.'

Your insistence there is only one absolute sense of 'believing' is absurd and intellectually bankrupt.

I suggest you brush up on the Philosophy of Belief to understand in depth the range of context regarding 'believe'.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/belief/

Last edited by Continuum; 03-17-2016 at 03:43 AM..
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Old 03-17-2016, 05:25 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
17:19 do not prove any point that one must believe to be a Muslim.
As I had stated 17:19 demonstrated there is a different degree of 'believe'.

Yes, believing is prerequisite to become a Muslim.
But what you are ignorant and denying is there are various senses of 'believing.'

Your insistence there is only one absolute sense of 'believing' is absurd and intellectually bankrupt.

I suggest you brush up on the Philosophy of Belief to understand in depth the range of context regarding 'believe'.
Belief (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
This is not philosophy discussion but about Islam discussion. In Islam, you can have any belief and believe anything you like but if you do not believe in Allah, the Last Day, the prophets, the books including the Qur'an, you have not believed. It is senseless to insist otherwise.

As for your various senses of 'believing', you may carry on with non-Islamic sense of believing but you are not going to understand Islamic believing. If you want to talk about Islam then you need to know what is believing in Islamic term. You either believe or do not believe. Wandering Arabs did not believe. Allah has made it absolutely clear in 49:14 that they did not BELIEVE.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is not philosophy discussion but about Islam discussion. In Islam, you can have any belief and believe anything you like but if you do not believe in Allah, the Last Day, the prophets, the books including the Qur'an, you have not believed. It is senseless to insist otherwise.

As for your various senses of 'believing', you may carry on with non-Islamic sense of believing but you are not going to understand Islamic believing. If you want to talk about Islam then you need to know what is believing in Islamic term. You either believe or do not believe. Wandering Arabs did not believe. Allah has made it absolutely clear in 49:14 that they did not BELIEVE.
Note the purpose of Philosophy is to seek truths and wisdom within reality [which include religions and believers -e.g. Islam and Muslims]
Therefore when discussing Islam we are interested in the truth and wisdom.
If you are a mature and responsible human being you will have to take philosophy into account when discussing Islam.
Note this;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_philosophy

It is because you are not interested in truths and wisdom [i.e. philosophical approach] that you are messing and twisting 49:14 against what Allah intended.

Here is 49:14
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
and note 49:17

Quote:
49:17. [Pickthall] They [Wandering Arabs] make it favour unto thee (Muhammad) that they have surrendered (unto Him).
Say [O Muhammad]: Deem not your Surrender a favour unto me; nay, but Allah doth confer a favour on you [Wandering Arabs], inasmuch as He hath led you to the Faith, if ye are earnest.

49:17 [Ali] They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.
Note your bad logic and conclusion based on your interpretation of 49:14;
1. You stated the wandering Arabs did not BELIEVE.
2. You insist the wandering Arabs submitted to some one else other than Allah.
3. Therefore the wandering Arabs were not Muslims.

Now 49:17 and Allah confirmed the wandering Arabs were Muslims.

Now who is right, YOU or ALLAH?



On Degrees of Believe:
Here is the Islamic sense of believe according to Allah;
8:4. Those [Muslims] are they who are in truth believers. For them [Muslims] are grades [degrees] (of honour) with their Lord, and pardon, and a bountiful provision.

56:11. O ye [Muslims] who believe! When it is said, Make room! in assemblies, then make room; Allah will make way for you [Muslims] (hereafter). And when it is said, Come up higher! go up higher; Allah will exalt those [Muslims] who believe among you, and those [Muslims] who have knowledge, to high ranks. Allah is informed of what ye do.
The above are two amongst MANY similar verses in the Quran where it is implied there are degrees of believe as applicable to believers [Muslims] after they have done the initial submission.
The Quran mentioned in many verses the Muslim's performance as a believer is graded in degrees and s/he will reaped on Judgment Day what s/he had sowed on Earth.

Now 49:14 refer to the more serious degrees of believe related to the acquisition of knowledge of Islam and other matters after the Muslims has submitted when s/he entered into a covenant with Allah.

You are the one who is ignorant of your own Islamic sense of believe.
I suggest you read the Quran at least 50 times.
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Old 03-18-2016, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the purpose of Philosophy is to seek truths and wisdom within reality [which include religions and believers -e.g. Islam and Muslims]
Therefore when discussing Islam we are interested in the truth and wisdom.
If you are a mature and responsible human being you will have to take philosophy into account when discussing Islam.
Note this;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_philosophy

It is because you are not interested in truths and wisdom [i.e. philosophical approach] that you are messing and twisting 49:14 against what Allah intended.

Here is 49:14
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
and note 49:17



Note your bad logic and conclusion based on your interpretation of 49:14;
1. You stated the wandering Arabs did not BELIEVE.
2. You insist the wandering Arabs submitted to some one else other than Allah.
3. Therefore the wandering Arabs were not Muslims.

Now 49:17 and Allah confirmed the wandering Arabs were Muslims.

Now who is right, YOU or ALLAH?



On Degrees of Believe:
Here is the Islamic sense of believe according to Allah;
8:4. Those [Muslims] are they who are in truth believers. For them [Muslims] are grades [degrees] (of honour) with their Lord, and pardon, and a bountiful provision.

56:11. O ye [Muslims] who believe! When it is said, Make room! in assemblies, then make room; Allah will make way for you [Muslims] (hereafter). And when it is said, Come up higher! go up higher; Allah will exalt those [Muslims] who believe among you, and those [Muslims] who have knowledge, to high ranks. Allah is informed of what ye do.
The above are two amongst MANY similar verses in the Quran where it is implied there are degrees of believe as applicable to believers [Muslims] after they have done the initial submission.
The Quran mentioned in many verses the Muslim's performance as a believer is graded in degrees and s/he will reaped on Judgment Day what s/he had sowed on Earth.

Now 49:14 refer to the more serious degrees of believe related to the acquisition of knowledge of Islam and other matters after the Muslims has submitted when s/he entered into a covenant with Allah.

You are the one who is ignorant of your own Islamic sense of believe.
I suggest you read the Quran at least 50 times.
49:17 is not stating they are Muslims. Essentially it is saying they have been led to the door of Islam, but still have to open the door.


49:17 [Ali] They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.
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Old 03-18-2016, 01:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
49:17 is not stating they are Muslims. Essentially it is saying they have been led to the door of Islam, but still have to open the door.


49:17 [Ali] They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.
Nah, 49:17 is stated in the past tense, i.e. surrendered [Pickthall] and embraced [Ali].
This meant they were Muslims.
If they were Muslims, it imply they must have submitted.

But yet in 49:14, Allah stated they have not believed.
Then there is the case of 'believe' [loose sense] must precede 'submission' and being a Muslim.
There seem to be a contradiction by Allah in this case.

The only justification to resolve is contradiction is to refer to the fact that there are different types and degree for the term 'believe.'
In 49:14 the term 'believe' refer to the specific higher degree sense and not the looser/wider sense.

The 'if ye be true and sincere' is merely a general condition of being a Muslim.
A person may be a Muslim after s/he first submitted to Allah for various reasons, but that Muslim may not be sincere and true if after a while s/he changes his/her mind and not worshipping Allah subsequently.
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Old 03-18-2016, 02:24 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
49:17 is not stating they are Muslims. Essentially it is saying they have been led to the door of Islam, but still have to open the door.


49:17 [Ali] They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.
Only a believing person can understand the Qur'an properly.

Here is how a believer will understand the verse 49:17:

49:17 Many people think that they have bestowed a favour upon thee (O prophet) by having surrendered (to thee). Say thou: "Deem not your surrender a favour upon me: nay, it is God who bestowes a favour upon you by showing you the way to faith, if you are true to your word". (Asad)

These people had been only taken to the door but had not yet entered the door as they had not believed yet (49:14). If 49:17 is read in its context (including 49:14 and 49:15), it becomes crystal clear that they were not yet Muslims or even believers yet. They had not yet believed (49:14) and 49:15 explains who is a believer. The believers are only those who have believed in Allah and His messenger (as proclaimed in Shahada). Wandering Arabs had not yet believed.

There can be no Muslim without believing Allah first. This is why they were not submitting to Allah but submitting to Muhammad only and claiming to do a favour upon Muhammad.
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Old 03-18-2016, 02:29 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Nah, 49:17 is stated in the past tense, i.e. surrendered [Pickthall] and embraced [Ali].
This meant they were Muslims.
If they were Muslims, it imply they must have submitted.

But yet in 49:14, Allah stated they have not believed.
Then there is the case of 'believe' [loose sense] must precede 'submission' and being a Muslim.
There seem to be a contradiction by Allah in this case.

The only justification to resolve is contradiction is to refer to the fact that there are different types and degree for the term 'believe.'
In 49:14 the term 'believe' refer to the specific higher degree sense and not the looser/wider sense.

The 'if ye be true and sincere' is merely a general condition of being a Muslim.
A person may be a Muslim after s/he first submitted to Allah for various reasons, but that Muslim may not be sincere and true if after a while s/he changes his/her mind and not worshipping Allah subsequently.
Continuum,

I can understand your problem. You are confused and going round and round in a circle trying to find a way out. No way you are going to find a way out if you keep going in the same circle.
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Old 03-18-2016, 03:37 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

I can understand your problem. You are confused and going round and round in a circle trying to find a way out. No way you are going to find a way out if you keep going in the same circle.
What I am trying to be as rational and objective as possible in my interpretation.

On the other hand, by default as a believer you must be emotional and subjectively bias else your faith will not work. [I can argue for this]. In addition, you have only read the Quran 6-7 times.

Thus the going round and round is because of your emotional and subjective biasness and so far I have not read of any thing rational and objective from you. If you can convince me your arguments are sound, rational and objective, I will have no hesitation in accepting your views as I have no emotional and subjective vested interests in those terms other than academic and intellectual interests.
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Old 03-18-2016, 04:16 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What I am trying to be as rational and objective as possible in my interpretation.

On the other hand, by default as a believer you must be emotional and subjectively bias else your faith will not work. [I can argue for this]. In addition, you have only read the Quran 6-7 times.

Thus the going round and round is because of your emotional and subjective biasness and so far I have not read of any thing rational and objective from you. If you can convince me your arguments are sound, rational and objective, I will have no hesitation in accepting your views as I have no emotional and subjective vested interests in those terms other than academic and intellectual interests.
Continuum,
You will not believe me or the Qur'an until:

26:201 They will not believe in it until they see the painful punishment.

Obviously I can't bring the painful punishment to you to make you believe; only Allah can.
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,
You will not believe me or the Qur'an until:

26:201 They will not believe in it until they see the painful punishment.

Obviously I can't bring the painful punishment to you to make you believe; only Allah can.
In this case it is not the case of believing in the Quran.
The contention with 49:14 in this case is what is Allah's intention in that verse.

My interpretation of 49:14 is rational and objective based on the words of Allah in the Quran. Note my logical presentations.
My claim is according to Allah in 49:14, 'believe' [proper] is stronger that submit [proper].

Your threat of hell on me has no relevance to this point at all.
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