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Old 03-21-2016, 12:31 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,051,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In this case it is not the case of believing in the Quran.
The contention with 49:14 in this case is what is Allah's intention in that verse.
To you, nothing because to you Allah does not even exist. To me, it is obvious; submitting without believing does not make one a Muslim. Believing is prerequisite to become a Muslim/Submitter.

Quote:
My interpretation of 49:14 is rational and objective based on the words of Allah in the Quran. Note my logical presentations.
You still havden't answered my question: Who were those Guys submitting to?

Can anyone become a Muslim (Submitter) without believing first?

Quote:
My claim is according to Allah in 49:14, 'believe' [proper] is stronger that submit [proper].
In Allah's words, there is only 'believe' and 'submit'. There is no such thing as 'improper believe', 'proper believe' or 'improper submit' and 'proper submit'.

Quote:
Your threat of hell on me has no relevance to this point at all.
It wasn't MY threat! I had made it clear that I can't punish you for not believing.

30:53 Nor can you lead away the blind out od their error. You cannot make to hear any but those who believe in our ayat so they shall submit.

And if they do not believe, they are not going to submit to Allah but to someone else.
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Old 03-21-2016, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
To you, nothing because to you Allah does not even exist. To me, it is obvious; submitting without believing does not make one a Muslim. Believing is prerequisite to become a Muslim/Submitter.
I do not believe Allah exists.
However in this case, I am assuming Allah exists and stepping into the shoes of Allah and making an attempt to interpret his message in 49:14 to Muslims.
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
It is so obvious from reading 49:14 by itself and directly, Allah meant the following;
The wandering Arab had not believe because the faith hath not yet entered into the wandering Arabs' hearts but rather the wandering Arabs had only submitted.
You have no other choice but to agree with this statement of Allah.

In 49:17 Allah implied the wandering Arabs were already [embraced] Muslims.
Therefore the wandering Arabs must have submitted to Allah and no one else.


Quote:
You still haven't answered my question: Who were those Guys submitting to?
As I argued above;
In 49:17 Allah implied the wandering Arabs were already [embraced] Muslims.
Therefore the wandering Arabs must have submitted to Allah and no one else.

Quote:
Can anyone become a Muslim (Submitter) without believing first?
In 49:17 Allah implied one can be a Muslim by submitting to Allah without 'believing.'
That is Allah's words not mine.
In this case Allah is referring to 'believing' proper, i.e. the higher degree of believing.

Quote:
In Allah's words, there is only 'believe' and 'submit'. There is no such thing as 'improper believe', 'proper believe' or 'improper submit' and 'proper submit'.
Note my point re degree of believing in this thread;
Degree of Muslim_ness

I have also argued there are degree of believing from 1-Low to 100-high.
In addition, 'believe' is a very loose term.

Quote:
And if they do not believe, they are not going to submit to Allah but to someone else.
As I have stated believe is a very loose term and comes in degrees.
Note one can submit emotionally [under great fear whatever] and intuitively without believe.
If there is any believe before any submission, then that type of believe is in the looser and wider sense.
Then the wandering Arabs may have believe Muhammad but submitted to Allah.

Note again;
This thread is with reference to 49:14.
Therefore your argument must be based on 49:14 and not your personal opinions.
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I do not believe Allah exists.
However in this case, I am assuming Allah exists and stepping into the shoes of Allah and making an attempt to interpret his message in 49:14 to Muslims.
You are stepping into shoes of Allah? Wow!

Quote:
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
It is so obvious from reading 49:14 by itself and directly, Allah meant the following;
The wandering Arab had not believe because the faith hath not yet entered into the wandering Arabs' hearts but rather the wandering Arabs had only submitted.
You have no other choice but to agree with this statement of Allah.
There is no question or disagreement on the statement (the verse). The question to you is, if they did not believe, who were they submitting to?

There is no other indication in this verse as to who they were submitting to except that they did not believe. From this statement of Allah, there is no doubt left that they were not submitting to Allah, which requires believing first, but submitting to someone else.

Quote:
In 49:17 Allah implied the wandering Arabs were already [embraced] Muslims.
Therefore the wandering Arabs must have submitted to Allah and no one else.
If they did not believe (49:14) Allah, how is it possible for them to submit to Allah? 49:17 clarifies the situation when it discloses that they were claiming that they were submitting as a favour to Muhammad. It, therefore, becomes obvious that they were submitting to Muhammad and not to Allah.

Quote:
In 49:17 Allah implied one can be a Muslim by submitting to Allah without 'believing.'
That is Allah's words not mine.
One cannot submit to Allah without believing first. Therefore, it is you who imply otherwise and not Allah.

Quote:
In this case Allah is referring to 'believing' proper, i.e. the higher degree of believing.
BelievIng is believing. There could be strength of believing that we regard strong Eeman or weak Eeman but there has to be at least some Eeman, even weak Eeman, for one to submit to Allah. No Eeman, no Believe, no Submission, no Muslim. Nothing!!!

Quote:
I have also argued there are degree of believing from 1-Low to 100-high.
In addition, 'believe' is a very loose term.
If you do not believe, you have no Eeman, you have 0% Eeman and 0% belirve. In other words, you either believe or do not believe. 49:14 says "do not believe". Who were they submitting to, without any Eeman whatsoever?

Quote:
Note one can submit emotionally [under great fear whatever] and intuitively without believe.
That would be submitting to emotions, fear or a person but not to Allah without believing Allah.

Quote:
If there is any believe before any submission, then that type of believe is in the looser and wider sense.
Not unless the submission is to a man. Submission to Allah requires at least some Eeman even if it is weak Eeman. Any act of submission without believing is not Islam. In Islam, believing is prerequisite to submission.

Quote:
Then the wandering Arabs may have believe Muhammad but submitted to Allah.
But Allah said in 49:14 that they did not believe at all as it hadn't even entered their hearts. Logically, they were submitting only to Muhammad and not to Allah.
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Old 03-23-2016, 02:53 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are stepping into shoes of Allah? Wow!
Why not? Within Islam [not reality btw] Allah sent his message in written texts in the Quran. So what the problem if we try to step into the shoes to understand clearly what the message in the Quran is intended to be.

Quote:
There is no question or disagreement on the statement (the verse). The question to you is, if they did not believe, who were they submitting to?
I told you as explained in 49:17 the wandering Arabs submitted to Allah.
It would be a sin for Muhammad to influence the wandering Arabs to submit to him. If the wandering Arabs has submitted to Muhammad, Allah would have rebuked Muhammad there and then for usurping Allah's authority.
It is very clearly stated in the Quran, Muhammad is merely a warner and conveyor of the message not someone others should submit to him in the context of 49:14.

Quote:
There is no other indication in this verse as to who they were submitting to except that they did not believe. From this statement of Allah, there is no doubt left that they were not submitting to Allah, which requires believing first, but submitting to someone else.
Your problem is you are so narrow minded to think there is one sense of "believe". In this case your linguistic knowledge is very low.


Quote:
If they did not believe (49:14) Allah, how is it possible for them to submit to Allah? 49:17 clarifies the situation when it discloses that they were claiming that they were submitting as a favour to Muhammad. It, therefore, becomes obvious that they were submitting to Muhammad and not to Allah.
They were submitting to Allah as a favor to Muhammad.
It would be blasphemous to interpret the wandering Arabs has submitted to Muhammad.

All the 40++ English translation mentioned the wandering Arabs had became Muslims and thus they have submitted to Allah. Many of the translator mentioned or put in [] they wandering Arabs surrendered or submitted to Allah.

Note 49:17
49:17. [Pickthall] They [Wandering Arabs] make it favour unto thee (Muhammad) that they have surrendered (unto Him).
Say [O Muhammad]: Deem not your Surrender a favour unto me; nay, but Allah doth confer a favour on you [Wandering Arabs], inasmuch as He hath led you to the Faith, if ye are earnest.

49:17 [Ali] They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.
The above verses indicated the wandering Arabs were Muslims [have embraced Islam] in that case.
Show me one any original 49:17 in Arabic or English translation that say the wandering Arabs were not Muslims.


Quote:
One cannot submit to Allah without believing first. Therefore, it is you who imply otherwise and not Allah.
Yours is a weakness in semantics and linguistics.

Quote:
BelievIng is believing. There could be strength of believing that we regard strong Eeman or weak Eeman but there has to be at least some Eeman, even weak Eeman, for one to submit to Allah. No Eeman, no Believe, no Submission, no Muslim. Nothing!!!

If you do not believe, you have no Eeman, you have 0% Eeman and 0% belirve. In other words, you either believe or do not believe. 49:14 says "do not believe". Who were they submitting to, without any Eeman whatsoever?
Regardless of how you interpret Eeman, the point is in 49:17 Allah stated the wandering Arabs were already Muslims and had submitted to Allah but they had not BELIEVE [a more serious sense].

Quote:
That would be submitting to emotions, fear or a person but not to Allah without believing Allah.
If a person is caught in a terrible psychological state [threat of death], they will do anything including submission based on emotional response to something higher without any conscious sense of belief.

Quote:
Not unless the submission is to a man. Submission to Allah requires at least some Eeman even if it is weak Eeman. Any act of submission without believing is not Islam. In Islam, believing is prerequisite to submission.
There is no question of submission to a man, Muhammad in this context of 49:14 and 49:17.
There is no verse in the Quran that insist 'believing is prerequisite to submission.'

Quote:
But Allah said in 49:14 that they did not believe at all as it hadn't even entered their hearts. Logically, they were submitting only to Muhammad and not to Allah.
You are committing a sin by insisting the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad where such an event should never had happened at all. Muhammad was merely a warner [parrot, tape recorder] and there is no question of any one submitting to him in such a circumstances involving believe.

As I had argued there are two sense of "believe" in this case.
1. Where believe [weak, loose sense] [not imperative] leads to submit
2. Believe [specific sense] [imperative] to the extent faith had entered into their hearts.

I am well aware of this complex meaning of 'believe' or 'belief' from the philosophical perspective.
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Old 03-23-2016, 05:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I told you as explained in 49:17 the wandering Arabs submitted to Allah.
And I told you, and Allah told you, that they did not believe in Allah, so how could they have been submitting to Allah?

Quote:
They were submitting to Allah as a favor to Muhammad.
No.They could not possibly have been submitting to Allah when they did not even believe in Allah.

Quote:
All the 40++ English translation mentioned the wandering Arabs had became Muslims and thus they have submitted to Allah. Many of the translator mentioned or put in [] they wandering Arabs surrendered or submitted to Allah.

Note 49:17
49:17. [Pickthall] They [Wandering Arabs] make it favour unto thee (Muhammad) that they have surrendered (unto Him).
Say [O Muhammad]: Deem not your Surrender a favour unto me; nay, but Allah doth confer a favour on you [Wandering Arabs], inasmuch as He hath led you to the Faith, if ye are earnest.

49:17 [Ali] They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.
The above verses indicated the wandering Arabs were Muslims [have embraced Islam] in that case.
Show me one any original 49:17 in Arabic or English translation that say the wandering Arabs were not Muslims.
Nobody can be Muslim without believing first. Even you had once agreed with me.

49:14 The Bedouin say: "We have attained to faith". (Say unto them, O Muhammad) "You have not (yet) attained to faith you should (rather) say, 'We have (outwardly) surrendered' - for (true) faith has not entered your hearts. But if you (truly) pay heed to God and His Apostle, He will not let the least of your deeds go to waste: for, behold, God is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

49:17 Many people think that they have bestowed a favour upon thee (O prophet) by having surrendered (to thee by professing to be your followers). Say thou: Deem not your surrender a favour unto me: Nay, it is God who bestowes a favour upon you by showing you the way to the faith - if you are true to your word.
(Asad)

Quote:
Regardless of how you interpret Eeman, the point is in 49:17 Allah stated the wandering Arabs were already Muslims and had submitted to Allah but they had not BELIEVE [a more serious sense].
There is 'believe' or there is 'no believe'. The 49:14 clearly say that they did not believe.

Quote:
There is no verse in the Quran that insist 'believing is prerequisite to submission.'
2:208 O you who believe! Enter into submission one and all and do not follow footsteps of Shaytan: surely he is your open enemy.

They believed first and then were commanded to submit. If you submit without believing, it is not Islam.

Quote:
As I had argued there are two sense of "believe" in this case.
1. Where believe [weak, loose sense] [not imperative] leads to submit
2. Believe [specific sense] [imperative] to the extent faith had entered into their hearts.

I am well aware of this complex meaning of 'believe' or 'belief' from the philosophical perspective.
You are not aware of what is 'believe" in Islam. Even a weak 'believe' is till 'believe'. Even weak 'believe' is enough for submitting to Allah. Without even weak 'believe', there is neither any 'believe' nor submitting to Allah.
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Old 03-23-2016, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
And I told you, and Allah told you, that they did not believe in Allah, so how could they have been submitting to Allah?

No.They could not possibly have been submitting to Allah when they did not even believe in Allah.
As I have stated in 49:17 the wandering Arabs were Muslims thus they have submitted to Allah.

Quote:
Nobody can be Muslim without believing first. Even you had once agreed with me.
I have stated many time there is one sense of believe which precede submission at time but there is another more serious sense of believe. Allah was referring to the more serious sense of believe in 49:14.

49:14 The Bedouin say: "We have attained to faith". (Say unto them, O Muhammad) "You have not (yet) attained to faith you should (rather) say, 'We have (outwardly) surrendered' - for (true) faith has not entered your hearts. But if you (truly) pay heed to God and His Apostle, He will not let the least of your deeds go to waste: for, behold, God is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

49:17 Many people think that they have bestowed a favour upon thee (O prophet) by having surrendered (to thee by professing to be your followers). Say thou: Deem not your surrender a favour unto me: Nay, it is God who bestowes a favour upon you by showing you the way to the faith - if you are true to your word.
(Asad)
Note the above '(to thee by professing to be your followers) in parenthesis is Asad's own words not Allah's words. It is blasphemy in this context for the wandering Arabs to submit to Muhammad.

Now show me another 20 translations that agree with Asad's interpretations.

I can show you 20++ translations without the additional mention of submitting to [Muhammad] in parenthesis.


Quote:
There is 'believe' or there is 'no believe'. The 49:14 clearly say that they did not believe.
It is your linguistic weakness not in understanding there are terms with wide/loose sense and specific senses.

Quote:
2:208 O you who believe! Enter into submission one and all and do not follow footsteps of Shaytan: surely he is your open enemy.
They believed first and then were commanded to submit. If you submit without believing, it is not Islam.
As I had argued this is the weaker or looser sense of 'believe.'
The critical factor for a person to be a Muslims is 'submission' and entering into a covenant with Allah. Any type of 'believing' at the initial stage is in the looser sense and is secondary.


Quote:
You are not aware of what is 'believe" in Islam. Even a weak 'believe' is till 'believe'. Even weak 'believe' is enough for submitting to Allah. Without even weak 'believe', there is neither any 'believe' nor submitting to Allah.
After reading the Quran for more than 50 times I am aware of the full range of believe from weak to strong with reference to Islam and the duty of a Muslim.

I would add the emphasis of 'submission' also comes in degrees in the following order;

1. Became a Muslims at covenant stage; believe =10% Submission =80%
2. Progressing to be a better Muslim; believe = 80%++ Submission 10%.

Note the % above indicate the emphasis and focus not the quantum.

It meant that after one has focus on submission at 80% at the initial state, the next is to be a Muslim-proper, then one began to focus on believing proper towards 80%.
After having submitted already there is no need to give extra emphasis on submission but rather a Muslim should direct his focus to believe to increase and reinforce his Muslim_ness.
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Khalif,

From my earlier post,

Note the above '(to thee by professing to be your followers) in parenthesis is Asad's own words not Allah's words. It is blasphemy in this context for the wandering Arabs to submit to Muhammad.

Now show me another 20 translations that agree with Asad's interpretations.

I can show you 20++ translations without the additional mention of submitting to [Muhammad] in parenthesis.


Here are 32 English translation of the Quran where 49:17 is translated where the wandering Arabs had submitted and were already Muslims. There is no mentioned of the wandering Arabs has submitted to Muhammad in [] parenthesis.
M. M. Pickthall
They make it a favour unto thee (Muhammad) that they have surrendered (unto Him). Say: Deem not your Surrender a favour unto me; but Allah doth confer a favour on you, inasmuch as He hath led you to the Faith, if ye are earnest. zoom

Shakir
They think that they lay you under an obligation by becoming Muslims. Say: Lay me not under obligation by your Islam: rather Allah lays you under an obligation by guiding you to the faith if you are truthful. zoom

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere. zoom
Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938)
They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, God has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere. zoom

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
They show grace to thee that they submitted to God. Say: Show you submission to God as grace to me? Nay! God shows grace to you in that He guided you to belief if you, truly, had been ones who are sincere. zoom

Wahiduddin Khan
They think they have done you a favour by becoming Muslims! Say, Do not consider your Islam a favour to me. No indeed! It is God who bestowed a favour on you by guiding you to the true faith. [Admit this], if you are telling the truth. zoom

T.B.Irving
They want you to feet flattered because they have entered Islam. SAY: "You do not flatter me with your commitment to [live in] peace; rather God flatters you, provided you are loyal, since He has guided you to faith. zoom

Safi Kaskas
They consider it a favor to you that they have submitted. Say, "Do not consider your submission a favor to me; it is God who has done you a favor, by guiding you to faith, if you are truly sincere." zoom

[Al-Muntakhab]
They oblige you O Muhammad and make you feel indebted to them for having conformed to Islam. Say to them: "Do not obligate me for conforming to Islam, but Allah rather is He Who obligates you for opening your hearts' ears and your minds' eyes and influencing your appetite to Faith if indeed you are true to your promises and to your Faith. zoom

[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition)
They think they are doing you a favour by having surrendered! Say: "Do not think you are doing me any favours by your surrender. For it is God who is doing you a favour that He has guided you to the faith, if you are being true." zoom

Abdel Haleem
They think they have done you [Prophet] a favour by submitting. Say, ‘Do not consider your submission a favour to me; it is God who has done you a favour, by guiding you to faith, if you are truly sincere.’ zoom

Abdul Majid Daryabadi
They make it a favour Unto thee that they have surrendered. Say thou: deem not your surrender a favour Unto me; nay! Allah hath conferred a favour Unto you inasmuch as He hath guided you to belief, if ye are sincere. zoom

Ahmed Ali
They impress upon you that they have submitted. Tell them: "Do not favour me with your submission. In fact God has favoured you by showing you the way to belief, if you are men of truth." zoom

Aisha Bewley
They think they have done you a favour by becoming Muslims! Say: ´Do not consider your Islam a favour to me. No indeed! It is Allah who has favoured you by guiding you to iman if you are telling the truth.´ zoom

Ali Ünal
They impress it on you as their favor to you that they have submitted (to the rule of Islam and thereby put you under an obligation to them). Say: "Do not count your being Muslims as a favor to me (nor seek to put me under an obligation. The Religion does not belong to me, but to God only.) It is indeed God Who has conferred a favor upon you inasmuch as He has shown you the way to faith – if you are truthful (in your profession of being Muslims, those who have submitted to God)." zoom

Ali Quli Qara'i
They count it as a favour to you that they have embraced Islam. Say, ‘Do not count it as a favour to me your embracing of Islam. Rather it is Allah who has done you a favour in that He has guided you to faith, should you be truthful. zoom

Hamid S. Aziz
They think that they do you (Muhammad) a favour by their Surrender (by becoming Muslims). Say, "Deem not your Surrender (Islam) a favour unto me; nay, It is Allah who has conferred a favour unto you, in as much as He has led you to the Faith, if you zoom

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
They would oblige you that they have become Muslims! Say, "Do not oblige me by your Islam. No indeed, (but) Allah obliges you that He has guided you to belief, in case you are sincere." zoom

Muhammad Sarwar
(The bedouins tell you that) you owe them (a great deal) for their embracing Islam. Tell them, "You are not doing me any favors by embracing Islam. In fact, it is God who has done you a great favor by guiding you to the faith. (Think about this) if you are people of truth. zoom

Muhammad Taqi Usmani
They oblige you that they have accepted Islam, (as if it was a favour shown to you). Say, .Do not oblige me for your accepting Islam. Rather, Allah makes you obliged for His having guided you to the Faith, if you are truthful. zoom

Shabbir Ahmed
Some people act as if they are doing you a favor by embracing Islam. Say, "Deem not that your Islam is a favor upon me. Nay, it is Allah Who bestows a favor upon you as He has led you to the Faith, if you be true and sincere." zoom

Syed Vickar Ahamed
They impress on you as a favor that they have joined Islam. Say: "Count not your Islam as a favor upon me: No! Allah has handed down a favor upon you that He has guided you to the Faith, if you be true and sincere. zoom

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
They consider it a favor to you that they have accepted Islam. Say, "Do not consider your Islam a favor to me. Rather, Allah has conferred favor upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if you should be truthful." zoom

Farook Malik
They think they have conferred upon you a favor by embracing Islam. Tell them: "You have conferred upon me no favor by accepting Islam. It was Allah Who has conferred a favor upon you in guiding you to the true faith; admit this, if you are men of truth. zoom

Dr. Munir Munshey
Because they have submitted to Islam, they boast of having done you a favor. Say, "Do not hold your (faith in) Islam to be a favor upon me. Rather, Allah has shown you a favor; He has guided you to faith, if you are truthful!" zoom

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri
These people are showing off to you that they have done a favour to you by embracing Islam. Say: ‘Do not show off your Islam as a favour to me. Instead, Allah is the One Who favours you by guiding you to faith, provided you are true (to belief).’ zoom

Dr. Kamal Omar
They present it as a favour to you that they have accepted Islam. Tell (them): “Count not your Islam as a favour upon me. Rather, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He guided you to Faith, if you are those who speak the truth ." zoom

Talal A. Itani (new translation)
They regarded it a favor to you that they have submitted. Say, 'Do not consider your submission a favor to me; it is God who has done you a favor by guiding you to the faith, if you are sincere.' zoom

Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
They consider it a favor to you that they have embraced Al-Islam. Say, “Count not your Islam as a favor upon me, no God has conferred a favor upon you, that He has guided you to the faith, if you were true and sincere. zoom

Maududi
They count it as a favour to you that they accepted Islam. Say: "Do not regard your (accepting) Islam as a favour to me; rather, Allah has bestowed a favour on you by guiding you to faith, if you are truthful (in your claim to be believers). zoom

Ali Bakhtiari Nejad
They consider it a favor to you that they submitted, say: do not consider your submission as a favor to me, but God favored you to guide you to the belief, if you are truthful. zoom

[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)
They think they are doing you a favor by having submitted! Say: "Do not think you are doing me any favors by your submission. For it is God who is doing you a favor that He has guided you to the faith, if you are being true." zoom

Mohammad Shafi
They think that by becoming Muslims they have done a favour to you. Say, "You have done no favour to me by becoming Muslims! Allah, on the other hand, has done you a favour by guiding you to the faith, if you would but speak the truth."

I suggest you read all of the above 32 English translations and get the point. Note there are more translations of the same which I have not produced here.

This is not a question of not knowing Arabic but rather it is a matter of interpreting the concept and context involved.

In the context of the Quran, Muhammad was merely a warner, 'tape recorder' 'parrot' slave of Allah, conveyor of the message. It is too extreme and blasphemous to relate 'submitted' to Muhammad.

From the above Asad had wrongly interpreted 49:17 when he translated the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad.
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Old 03-26-2016, 02:34 AM
 
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As I had stated there is a wide range of meaning to the term 'believe.'
Any sense of 'believe' which is presented as preceding 'submit' is 'believe' in the looser term.
However 'believe-proper' will literally follow 'submission.'

Here is one verse where believe-proper is represented as following submission [surrender].
33:35. Lo!
men who surrender [submit] unto Allah, and women who surrender, and
men who believe and women who believe, and
men who obey and women who obey, and
men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth, and
men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere, and
men who are humble and women who are humble, and
men who give alms and women who give alms, and
men who fast and women who fast, and
men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty), and
men who remember Allah much and women who remember Allah hath prepared for them [as Muslims] forgiveness and a vast reward.
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Old 03-26-2016, 12:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khalif,

From my earlier post,

Note the above '(to thee by professing to be your followers) in parenthesis is Asad's own words not Allah's words. It is blasphemy in this context for the wandering Arabs to submit to Muhammad.
That's what it means by submitting and doing favour to Muhammad. Asad's translation may not be word by word translation but his interpretation is spot on. Submitting could be to a man as well but submitting to Allah is only Islam, and not submitting to any man. You need to understand this verse (a) in its own context, (b) in the context of surrounding verses and (c) in the context of the whole Qur'an. Therefore, Asad is the only correct translator and interpreter. Others are correct only if they have translated surrender or submitted wihout qualifying that such surrender or submitting was to Allah, as the verse does not say that they had submitted to Allah. The translators who have translated embraced Islam or entered Islam are completely wrong because to enter Islam or embrace Islam (Al Islam in Arabic) one must believe Allah first and submit to only Allah.

I will comment seperately on each translation you quoted, in the next post.
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Old 03-26-2016, 02:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had stated there is a wide range of meaning to the term 'believe.'
Any sense of 'believe' which is presented as preceding 'submit' is 'believe' in the looser term.
However 'believe-proper' will literally follow 'submission.'

Here is one verse where believe-proper is represented as following submission [surrender].
33:35. Lo!
men who surrender [submit] unto Allah, and women who surrender, and
men who believe and women who believe, and
men who obey and women who obey, and
men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth, and
men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere, and
men who are humble and women who are humble, and
men who give alms and women who give alms, and
men who fast and women who fast, and
men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty), and
men who remember Allah much and women who remember Allah hath prepared for them [as Muslims] forgiveness and a vast reward.
These are not in any order. All are part of Islam. Just because men are mentioned first it does not mean men should do each act first and them women. In fact, the last one (remembering Allah) is the most important act otherwise nothing else is going to be done. The correct verses that describe which (believe or submit) comes first are:

27:81 Nor can you be guide to the blind out of their error; you cannot make to hear any except those who believe in our ayat, so they submit.

30:53 Nor can you lead away the blind out of their error, you cannot make to hear any but those who believe in our ayat so they shall submit.

2:208 O you who believe! Enter into submission one and all and do not follow footsteps of Shaytan; surely he is your open enemy.

22:77 O you who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourself and serve your Lord, and do good that you may succeed?
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