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Old 03-26-2016, 06:58 PM
 
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Continuum,

My response to your various translations:
M. M. Pickthall
They make it a favour unto thee (Muhammad) that they have surrendered (unto Him). Say: Deem not your Surrender a favour unto me; but Allah doth confer a favour on you, inasmuch as He hath led you to the Faith, if ye are earnest. zoom

(unto Him) are not Allah's words.

Shakir
They think that they lay you under an obligation by becoming Muslims. Say: Lay me not under obligation by your Islam: rather Allah lays you under an obligation by guiding you to the faith if you are truthful. zoom

"becoming Muslims" is not in the Arabic Qur'an. Therefore, it is false translation of "aslamoo". The Arabic word for "Muslims" is Muslimeen and Muslimun. It is not there.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere. zoom
Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938)
They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, God has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere. zoom

The noun "Islam" in Arabic would be "al-islam " and not "aslamoo".

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
They show grace to thee that they submitted to God. Say: Show you submission to God as grace to me? Nay! God shows grace to you in that He guided you to belief if you, truly, had been ones who are sincere. zoom

"submitted to God" is false translation as there is no "God" ("Allah") with aslamoo.

T.B.Irving
They want you to feet flattered because they have entered Islam. SAY: "You do not flatter me with your commitment to [live in] peace; rather God flatters you, provided you are loyal, since He has guided you to faith. zoom

"entered Islam" is false translation of "aslamoo".

[Al-Muntakhab]
They oblige you O Muhammad and make you feel indebted to them for having conformed to Islam. Say to them: "Do not obligate me for conforming to Islam, but Allah rather is He Who obligates you for opening your hearts' ears and your minds' eyes and influencing your appetite to Faith if indeed you are true to your promises and to your Faith. zoom

"conformed to Islam" is false translation of "aslamoo".

[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition)
They think they are doing you a favour by having surrendered! Say: "Do not think you are doing me any favours by your surrender. For it is God who is doing you a favour that He has guided you to the faith, if you are being true." zoom

Abdel Haleem
They think they have done you [Prophet] a favour by submitting. Say, ‘Do not consider your submission a favour to me; it is God who has done you a favour, by guiding you to faith, if you are truly sincere.’ zoom

Abdul Majid Daryabadi
They make it a favour Unto thee that they have surrendered. Say thou: deem not your surrender a favour Unto me; nay! Allah hath conferred a favour Unto you inasmuch as He hath guided you to belief, if ye are sincere. zoom

Ahmed Ali
They impress upon you that they have submitted. Tell them: "Do not favour me with your submission. In fact God has favoured you by showing you the way to belief, if you are men of truth." zoom

Aisha Bewley
They think they have done you a favour by becoming Muslims! Say: ´Do not consider your Islam a favour to me. No indeed! It is Allah who has favoured you by guiding you to iman if you are telling the truth.´ zoom

"becoming Muslims" is false translation of "aslamoo". Muslims in Arabic is either Muslimeen or Muslimun (depending on grammar).

Ali Ünal
They impress it on you as their favor to you that they have submitted (to the rule of Islam and thereby put you under an obligation to them). Say: "Do not count your being Muslims as a favor to me (nor seek to put me under an obligation. The Religion does not belong to me, but to God only.) It is indeed God Who has conferred a favor upon you inasmuch as He has shown you the way to faith – if you are truthful (in your profession of being Muslims, those who have submitted to God)." zoom

Again, the word "Muslims" is not there if translated correctly.

Ali Quli Qara'i
They count it as a favour to you that they have embraced Islam. Say, ‘Do not count it as a favour to me your embracing of Islam. Rather it is Allah who has done you a favour in that He has guided you to faith, should you be truthful. zoom

Hamid S. Aziz
They think that they do you (Muhammad) a favour by their Surrender (by becoming Muslims). Say, "Deem not your Surrender (Islam) a favour unto me; nay, It is Allah who has conferred a favour unto you, in as much as He has led you to the Faith, if you zoom

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
They would oblige you that they have become Muslims! Say, "Do not oblige me by your Islam. No indeed, (but) Allah obliges you that He has guided you to belief, in case you are sincere." zoom

Muhammad Sarwar
(The bedouins tell you that) you owe them (a great deal) for their embracing Islam. Tell them, "You are not doing me any favors by embracing Islam. In fact, it is God who has done you a great favor by guiding you to the faith. (Think about this) if you are people of truth. zoom

Muhammad Taqi Usmani
They oblige you that they have accepted Islam, (as if it was a favour shown to you). Say, .Do not oblige me for your accepting Islam. Rather, Allah makes you obliged for His having guided you to the Faith, if you are truthful. zoom

"accepted Islam" is false translation of the word "aslamoo".

Shabbir Ahmed
Some people act as if they are doing you a favor by embracing Islam. Say, "Deem not that your Islam is a favor upon me. Nay, it is Allah Who bestows a favor upon you as He has led you to the Faith, if you be true and sincere." zoom

Syed Vickar Ahamed
They impress on you as a favor that they have joined Islam. Say: "Count not your Islam as a favor upon me: No! Allah has handed down a favor upon you that He has guided you to the Faith, if you be true and sincere. zoom

"joined Islam" it is false translation of "aslamoo". They could not possibly have joined Islam without believing (49:14).

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
They consider it a favor to you that they have accepted Islam. Say, "Do not consider your Islam a favor to me. Rather, Allah has conferred favor upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if you should be truthful." zoom

Farook Malik
They think they have conferred upon you a favor by embracing Islam. Tell them: "You have conferred upon me no favor by accepting Islam. It was Allah Who has conferred a favor upon you in guiding you to the true faith; admit this, if you are men of truth. zoom

Dr. Munir Munshey
Because they have submitted to Islam, they boast of having done you a favor. Say, "Do not hold your (faith in) Islam to be a favor upon me. Rather, Allah has shown you a favor; He has guided you to faith, if you are truthful!" zoom

"submitted to Islam"? "faith in Islam"? God is not Islam. Dismiss this one!

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri
These people are showing off to you that they have done a favour to you by embracing Islam. Say: ‘Do not show off your Islam as a favour to me. Instead, Allah is the One Who favours you by guiding you to faith, provided you are true (to belief).’ zoom

Dr. Kamal Omar
They present it as a favour to you that they have accepted Islam. Tell (them): “Count not your Islam as a favour upon me. Rather, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He guided you to Faith, if you are those who speak the truth ." zoom

Talal A. Itani (new translation)
They regarded it a favor to you that they have submitted. Say, 'Do not consider your submission a favor to me; it is God who has done you a favor by guiding you to the faith, if you are sincere.' zoom

Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
They consider it a favor to you that they have embraced Al-Islam. Say, “Count not your Islam as a favor upon me, no God has conferred a favor upon you, that He has guided you to the faith, if you were true and sincere. zoom

Maududi
They count it as a favour to you that they accepted Islam. Say: "Do not regard your (accepting) Islam as a favour to me; rather, Allah has bestowed a favour on you by guiding you to faith, if you are truthful (in your claim to be believers). zoom

Ali Bakhtiari Nejad
They consider it a favor to you that they submitted, say: do not consider your submission as a favor to me, but God favored you to guide you to the belief, if you are truthful. zoom

[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)
They think they are doing you a favor by having submitted! Say: "Do not think you are doing me any favors by your submission. For it is God who is doing you a favor that He has guided you to the faith, if you are being true." zoom

Mohammad Shafi
They think that by becoming Muslims they have done a favour to you. Say, "You have done no favour to me by becoming Muslims! Allah, on the other hand, has done you a favour by guiding you to the faith, if you would but speak the truth."

Quote:
I suggest you read all of the above 32 English translations and get the point. Note there are more translations of the same which I have not produced here.

This is not a question of not knowing Arabic but rather it is a matter of interpreting the concept and context involved.

In the context of the Quran, Muhammad was merely a warner, 'tape recorder' 'parrot' slave of Allah, conveyor of the message. It is too extreme and blasphemous to relate 'submitted' to Muhammad.

From the above Asad had wrongly interpreted 49:17 when he translated the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad.
Asad was correct to interpret it the way he did. He is the only one to take the context into account.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:41 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

My response to your various translations:
M. M. Pickthall
They make it a favour unto thee (Muhammad) that they have surrendered (unto Him). Say: Deem not your Surrender a favour unto me; but Allah doth confer a favour on you, inasmuch as He hath led you to the Faith, if ye are earnest. zoom

(unto Him) are not Allah's words.

Shakir
They think that they lay you under an obligation by becoming Muslims. Say: Lay me not under obligation by your Islam: rather Allah lays you under an obligation by guiding you to the faith if you are truthful. zoom

"becoming Muslims" is not in the Arabic Qur'an. Therefore, it is false translation of "aslamoo". The Arabic word for "Muslims" is Muslimeen and Muslimun. It is not there.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere. zoom
Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938)
They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, God has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere. zoom

The noun "Islam" in Arabic would be "al-islam " and not "aslamoo".

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
They show grace to thee that they submitted to God. Say: Show you submission to God as grace to me? Nay! God shows grace to you in that He guided you to belief if you, truly, had been ones who are sincere. zoom

"submitted to God" is false translation as there is no "God" ("Allah") with aslamoo.

T.B.Irving
They want you to feet flattered because they have entered Islam. SAY: "You do not flatter me with your commitment to [live in] peace; rather God flatters you, provided you are loyal, since He has guided you to faith. zoom

"entered Islam" is false translation of "aslamoo".

[Al-Muntakhab]
They oblige you O Muhammad and make you feel indebted to them for having conformed to Islam. Say to them: "Do not obligate me for conforming to Islam, but Allah rather is He Who obligates you for opening your hearts' ears and your minds' eyes and influencing your appetite to Faith if indeed you are true to your promises and to your Faith. zoom

"conformed to Islam" is false translation of "aslamoo".

[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition)
They think they are doing you a favour by having surrendered! Say: "Do not think you are doing me any favours by your surrender. For it is God who is doing you a favour that He has guided you to the faith, if you are being true." zoom

Abdel Haleem
They think they have done you [Prophet] a favour by submitting. Say, ‘Do not consider your submission a favour to me; it is God who has done you a favour, by guiding you to faith, if you are truly sincere.’ zoom

Abdul Majid Daryabadi
They make it a favour Unto thee that they have surrendered. Say thou: deem not your surrender a favour Unto me; nay! Allah hath conferred a favour Unto you inasmuch as He hath guided you to belief, if ye are sincere. zoom

Ahmed Ali
They impress upon you that they have submitted. Tell them: "Do not favour me with your submission. In fact God has favoured you by showing you the way to belief, if you are men of truth." zoom

Aisha Bewley
They think they have done you a favour by becoming Muslims! Say: ´Do not consider your Islam a favour to me. No indeed! It is Allah who has favoured you by guiding you to iman if you are telling the truth.´ zoom

"becoming Muslims" is false translation of "aslamoo". Muslims in Arabic is either Muslimeen or Muslimun (depending on grammar).

Ali Ünal
They impress it on you as their favor to you that they have submitted (to the rule of Islam and thereby put you under an obligation to them). Say: "Do not count your being Muslims as a favor to me (nor seek to put me under an obligation. The Religion does not belong to me, but to God only.) It is indeed God Who has conferred a favor upon you inasmuch as He has shown you the way to faith – if you are truthful (in your profession of being Muslims, those who have submitted to God)." zoom

Again, the word "Muslims" is not there if translated correctly.

Ali Quli Qara'i
They count it as a favour to you that they have embraced Islam. Say, ‘Do not count it as a favour to me your embracing of Islam. Rather it is Allah who has done you a favour in that He has guided you to faith, should you be truthful. zoom

Hamid S. Aziz
They think that they do you (Muhammad) a favour by their Surrender (by becoming Muslims). Say, "Deem not your Surrender (Islam) a favour unto me; nay, It is Allah who has conferred a favour unto you, in as much as He has led you to the Faith, if you zoom

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
They would oblige you that they have become Muslims! Say, "Do not oblige me by your Islam. No indeed, (but) Allah obliges you that He has guided you to belief, in case you are sincere." zoom

Muhammad Sarwar
(The bedouins tell you that) you owe them (a great deal) for their embracing Islam. Tell them, "You are not doing me any favors by embracing Islam. In fact, it is God who has done you a great favor by guiding you to the faith. (Think about this) if you are people of truth. zoom

Muhammad Taqi Usmani
They oblige you that they have accepted Islam, (as if it was a favour shown to you). Say, .Do not oblige me for your accepting Islam. Rather, Allah makes you obliged for His having guided you to the Faith, if you are truthful. zoom

"accepted Islam" is false translation of the word "aslamoo".

Shabbir Ahmed
Some people act as if they are doing you a favor by embracing Islam. Say, "Deem not that your Islam is a favor upon me. Nay, it is Allah Who bestows a favor upon you as He has led you to the Faith, if you be true and sincere." zoom

Syed Vickar Ahamed
They impress on you as a favor that they have joined Islam. Say: "Count not your Islam as a favor upon me: No! Allah has handed down a favor upon you that He has guided you to the Faith, if you be true and sincere. zoom

"joined Islam" it is false translation of "aslamoo". They could not possibly have joined Islam without believing (49:14).

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
They consider it a favor to you that they have accepted Islam. Say, "Do not consider your Islam a favor to me. Rather, Allah has conferred favor upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if you should be truthful." zoom

Farook Malik
They think they have conferred upon you a favor by embracing Islam. Tell them: "You have conferred upon me no favor by accepting Islam. It was Allah Who has conferred a favor upon you in guiding you to the true faith; admit this, if you are men of truth. zoom

Dr. Munir Munshey
Because they have submitted to Islam, they boast of having done you a favor. Say, "Do not hold your (faith in) Islam to be a favor upon me. Rather, Allah has shown you a favor; He has guided you to faith, if you are truthful!" zoom

"submitted to Islam"? "faith in Islam"? God is not Islam. Dismiss this one!

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri
These people are showing off to you that they have done a favour to you by embracing Islam. Say: ‘Do not show off your Islam as a favour to me. Instead, Allah is the One Who favours you by guiding you to faith, provided you are true (to belief).’ zoom

Dr. Kamal Omar
They present it as a favour to you that they have accepted Islam. Tell (them): “Count not your Islam as a favour upon me. Rather, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He guided you to Faith, if you are those who speak the truth ." zoom

Talal A. Itani (new translation)
They regarded it a favor to you that they have submitted. Say, 'Do not consider your submission a favor to me; it is God who has done you a favor by guiding you to the faith, if you are sincere.' zoom

Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
They consider it a favor to you that they have embraced Al-Islam. Say, “Count not your Islam as a favor upon me, no God has conferred a favor upon you, that He has guided you to the faith, if you were true and sincere. zoom

Maududi
They count it as a favour to you that they accepted Islam. Say: "Do not regard your (accepting) Islam as a favour to me; rather, Allah has bestowed a favour on you by guiding you to faith, if you are truthful (in your claim to be believers). zoom

Ali Bakhtiari Nejad
They consider it a favor to you that they submitted, say: do not consider your submission as a favor to me, but God favored you to guide you to the belief, if you are truthful. zoom

[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)
They think they are doing you a favor by having submitted! Say: "Do not think you are doing me any favors by your submission. For it is God who is doing you a favor that He has guided you to the faith, if you are being true." zoom

Mohammad Shafi
They think that by becoming Muslims they have done a favour to you. Say, "You have done no favour to me by becoming Muslims! Allah, on the other hand, has done you a favour by guiding you to the faith, if you would but speak the truth."

Asad was correct to interpret it the way he did. He is the only one to take the context into account.
Fundamentally as a believer you have to be bias positively to your belief.
That is the basis of why you are ignoring the actual context.
Generally I do not agree with the majority represent the truth.
But in this case of the majority view, it is Asad who is out of context.

Here is the word by word translation for 49:17;
Yamunnoona AAalayka an aslamoo qul la tamunnoo AAalayya islamakum bali Allahu yamunnu AAalaykum an hadakum lil-eemani in kuntum sadiqeena
They consider (it) a favor to you that they have accepted Islam. Say, "(Do) not consider a favor on me - your Islam. Nay, Allah has conferred a favor upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if you are truthful.
What does "aslamoo" means?

The critical word in in 49:17 is "islamakum" i.e. your Islam which imply the wandering Arabs has accepted Islam and thus this context is imposed on "aslamoo."
This is why the various translators translate "aslamoo" as submitted, accepted Islam, embracing Islam, and the likes to reflect that the wandering Arabs were already Muslims.

Now if the wandering Arabs were already Muslims, then they had submitted to Allah in 49:14.

If you insist 'believe' must precede 'submit,'
then the 'believe' in 49:17 is in the looser sense.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum

As I had stated there is a wide range of meaning to the term 'believe.'
Any sense of 'believe' which is presented as preceding 'submit' is 'believe' in the looser term.
However 'believe-proper' will literally follow 'submission.'

Here is one verse where believe-proper is represented as following submission [surrender].

33:35. Lo!
men who surrender [submit] unto Allah, and women who surrender, and
men who believe and women who believe, and
men who obey and women who obey, and
men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth, and
men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere, and
men who are humble and women who are humble, and
men who give alms and women who give alms, and
men who fast and women who fast, and
men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty), and
men who remember Allah much and women who remember Allah hath prepared for them [as Muslims] forgiveness and a vast reward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
These are not in any order. All are part of Islam. Just because men are mentioned first it does not mean men should do each act first and them women. In fact, the last one (remembering Allah) is the most important act otherwise nothing else is going to be done.
33:35 represent the process of a person being a Muslim and progress to be a better Muslim.
Remember Allah is a constant overall process that is why it is placed last, i.e. finally, remember Allah at all times.
Men is mentioned first because 'men' are most favored in the Quran and women are looked down upon [misogynistic] in many verses.

Quote:
The correct verses that describe which (believe or submit) comes first are:

27:81 Nor can you be guide to the blind out of their error; you cannot make to hear any except those who believe in our ayat, so they submit.

30:53 Nor can you lead away the blind out of their error, you cannot make to hear any but those who believe in our ayat so they shall submit.

2:208 O you who believe! Enter into submission one and all and do not follow footsteps of Shaytan; surely he is your open enemy.

22:77 O you who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourself and serve your Lord, and do good that you may succeed?
Note 27:81 word for word;
Wama anta bihadee alAAumyi AAan dalalatihim in tusmiAAu illa man yu/minu bi-ayatina fahum muslimoona

There is no mentioned of 'submit' specifically.

In all cases I have argued you need to take into account the various senses of the term 'believe' and 'submit'.
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Old 03-26-2016, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is another example of the various senses [wide to specific] of a term.

Take the word 'think.'

Here is one scenario;
1. When some one -X claim he 'think' and
2. the other person -Y insist he has not 'think' critically but merely guess,
3. what the person is implying is this;

4. X is has not done serious thinking as a thinker to support his proposition/conclusion,
5. rather X is merely guessing.

The point is when X was guessing he definitely has to think [loose sense], i.e. has thoughts and processing them by thinking about them.
So how can Y insist X has not 'think'. [as in 2]

This is why we need to consider the different senses the term 'think' are used.
In the above scenario,
the 'think' in 1 above was in the specific sense from Y's perspective.
In guessing Y should have been thinking but such thinking would be in the loose sense not in the specific sense of 'critical/logical/rational thinking.'

This 'think' example is similar to the 'believe' case in 49:14.
The 'believe' in 49:14 refer to the specific sense, i.e. serious belief.

The 'believe' you insisted that must precede 'submit' is in the loose sense, just like thinking when one is guessing. It is wrong to insist there is only one sense of believe.

Get it?
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Old 03-27-2016, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is another 16 English translations of 49:17 where all translated the wandering Arabs were already Muslims, therefore submitted to Allah.
Even Rashad Khalifa a pioneer of the "Submitters' imply they submitted to Allah with capital 'S' re 'Submission.

Note everytime there is an issue or question mark, I refer to these 46 English translations.

Now this is 45 for me against 1 Asad for you.
In context, Asad is wrong.

It is blasphemous to relate and associate 'submit' to Muhammad in the context of the overall Quran.

The 16 English Translation of 49:17
Bijan Moeinian They think they have done a favor by becoming a Muslim. Let them know that God has done a favor to them by guiding them toward the Faith; they will be grateful for such a favor, if they are really sincere in their faith. zoom

Faridul Haque They portray that they are doing a great favour to you (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him) by having become Muslims; say, “Do not think that you have done me a favour by accepting Islam; in fact Allah has bestowed a favour upon you, for He guided you to Islam, if you are truthful.” zoom

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah They regard it as a favor to you that they have submitted! Say: 'Do not regard your submission as a favor to me, rather, it is Allah who bestows upon you a favor by guiding you to belief, if you are truthful. ' zoom

Maulana Muhammad Ali They presume to lay thee under an obligation by becoming Muslims. Say: Lay me not under an obligation by your Islam; rather Allah lays you under an obligation by guiding you to the faith, if you are truthful. zoom

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira They brag on (to) you that (E) they submitted/became Moslem , Say: "Do not brag on (to) me (about) your submission/Islam , but God blesses on you that (E) He guided you to the faith/belief if you were truthful." zoom

Sher Ali They presume to regard it a favour to thee that they have embraced Islam. Say, `Deem not your embracing Islam as a favour unto me. On the contrary, ALLAH has bestowed a favour upon you in that HE has guided you to the true Faith, if you are truthful.' zoom

Rashad Khalifa They act as if they are doing you a favor by embracing Submission! Say, "You are not doing me any favors by embracing Submission. GOD is the One who is doing you a great favor by guiding you to the faith, if you are sincere." zoom

Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi) 'O beloved (prophet)! They take it as a favour to you that they have become Muslims. Say you, 'do not place the favour of your Islam on me; but rather Allah confers a favour upon you in that He has guided you to Islam, if you are truthful. zoom

Amatul Rahman Omar They lay you under obligation because they have embraced Islam. Say, `Lay me not under any obligation on account of your (embracing) Islam. On the contrary Allah has bestowed a favour on you, because He has guided you to the true Faith, if you are truthful.' zoom

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali They regard as favour upon you (O Muhammad SAW) that they have embraced Islam. Say: "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me. Nay, but Allah has conferred a favour upon you, that He has guided you to the Faith, if you indeed are true. zoom

Arthur John Arberry They count it as a favour to thee that they have surrendered! Say: 'Do not count your surrendering as a favour to me; nay, but rather God confers a favour upon you, in that He has guided you to belief, if it be that you are truthful. zoom

Edward Henry Palmer They deem that they oblige thee by becoming Muslims. Say, 'Nay! deem not that ye oblige me by your becoming Muslims! God obliges you, by directing you to the faith, if ye do speak the truth!' zoom

George Sale They upbraid thee that they have embraced Islam. Answer, upbraid me not with your having embraced Islam: Rather God upbraideth you, that He hath directed you to the faith; if ye speak sincerely. zoom

John Medows Rodwell They taunt thee with their having embraced Islam. SAY: Taunt me not with your having embraced Islam: God rather taunteth you with His having guided you to the faith: acknowledge this if ye are sincere. zoom

N J Dawood (draft) They think they have conferred on you a favour by embracing Islam. Say: 'In accepting Islam you have conferred on me no favour. It was God who bestowed a favour on you in guiding you to the true Faith. Admit this, if you are men of truth. zoom

Mir Aneesuddin They consider it their favour on you that they have accepted Islam. Say, “Do not consider your accepting Islam as a favour on me, no, Allah confers a favour on you by guiding you towards belief, if you are truthful.
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Old 03-27-2016, 03:52 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Fundamentally as a believer you have to be bias positively to your belief.
That is the basis of why you are ignoring the actual context.
Generally I do not agree with the majority represent the truth.
But in this case of the majority view, it is Asad who is out of context.

Here is the word by word translation for 49:17;
Yamunnoona AAalayka an aslamoo qul la tamunnoo AAalayya islamakum bali Allahu yamunnu AAalaykum an hadakum lil-eemani in kuntum sadiqeena
They consider (it) a favor to you that they have accepted Islam. Say, "(Do) not consider a favor on me - your Islam. Nay, Allah has conferred a favor upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if you are truthful.
What does "aslamoo" means?
Aslamoo does not mean "accepted Islam" but "submitted" (think of your loose form). It does not say to whom.

Quote:
The critical word in in 49:17 is "islamakum" i.e. your Islam which imply the wandering Arabs has accepted Islam and thus this context is imposed on "aslamoo."
All words are critical. As for "islamakum", it does not "imply", as you imagine, "your Islam" but means "your submitting". Again, their submitting could not have been to Allah because "eeman" hadn't even entered their hearts yet.

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This is why the various translators translate "aslamoo" as submitted, accepted Islam, embracing Islam, and the likes to reflect that the wandering Arabs were already Muslims.
No problem with it being translated as "submitted" or "surrendered" but "accepted Islam" and "embraced Islam" is out because they could not have embraced Islam without "eeman".

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Now if the wandering Arabs were already Muslims, then they had submitted to Allah in 49:14.
Who said they were "muslimeen"? To be "muslimeen", they had to have "eeman" in their hearts first. It is submitting to Allah that makes one Muslim after believing.

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If you insist 'believe' must precede 'submit,'
then the 'believe' in 49:17 is in the looser sense.
No. Not at all. It is, in fact, submitting in this case that is in looser sense. BELIEVE here is very much pure believing, "al-eeman" that had not even entered their hearts (fee quloobikum = in their hearts). There can be no Muslim without "eeman".
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Old 03-27-2016, 04:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
33:35 represent the process of a person being a Muslim and progress to be a better Muslim.
Remember Allah is a constant overall process that is why it is placed last, i.e. finally, remember Allah at all times.
Men is mentioned first because 'men' are most favored in the Quran and women are looked down upon [misogynistic] in many verses.
As I had stated, these actions are in no particular order. All of the actions in 33:35 are what makes one a Muslim.
If you read the verse in Arabic, it begins with Muslimeen and Muslimaat. It should have been translated as Muslim men and Muslim women rather than men who submit and women who submit. The rest are sub-identities due to the actions of Muslimeen and Muslimaat. The most important is being Momin/Believer (having eeman). Without "eeman", you are not even a believer; never mind being a Muslim which is the culmination.

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Note 27:81 word for word;
Wama anta bihadee alAAumyi AAan dalalatihim in tusmiAAu illa man yu/minu bi-ayatina fahum muslimoona

There is no mentioned of 'submit' specifically.
The verse means specific submitting after believing leading to becoming a Muslim. In "muslimoona" is specific submitting after believing. It will not be specific but in loose secular sense submit if one had not believed.

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In all cases I have argued you need to take into account the various senses of the term 'believe' and 'submit'.
In one sense it is religious and Islamic, and in the other sense it is in secular sense. I BELIEVE you are not getting it. Please do not worry, I am here to make you believe (in loose sense).
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Old 03-27-2016, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
As I had stated, these actions are in no particular order. All of the actions in 33:35 are what makes one a Muslim.
If you read the verse in Arabic, it begins with Muslimeen and Muslimaat. It should have been translated as Muslim men and Muslim women rather than men who submit and women who submit. The rest are sub-identities due to the actions of Muslimeen and Muslimaat. The most important is being Momin/Believer (having eeman). Without "eeman", you are not even a believer; never mind being a Muslim which is the culmination.
You said there are no particular order but according to my reading there is some order, i.e.

1st. Surrender - proper sense
2nd. Believe - proper sense
3rd. Obey the command follow the rules of Allah
.... the various actions
4th Remember Allah at all times.

The men and women are implied to be Muslims when translated in English thus it is frivolous in English to keep repeating the word 'Muslim' all over the place.

I believe there are degrees of 'eeman' from basic to strong.

Quote:
The verse means specific submitting after believing leading to becoming a Muslim. In "muslimoona" is specific submitting after believing. It will not be specific but in loose secular sense submit if one had not believed.
You are adding your own interpretation. There is no way I will accept it in such a contentious situation.

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In one sense it is religious and Islamic, and in the other sense it is in secular sense. I BELIEVE you are not getting it. Please do not worry, I am here to make you believe (in loose sense).
Now you are getting it,

1st you are trying to make me 'believe' [loose sense],
2nd after I have believed [loose] I will submit [proper] to your point,
3rd after I have submitted, I will gain greater believe [proper sense],
4th after I have believed [proper sense] the faith will enter into my "heart" [metaphorically].

This example demonstrate the 'believe' before any submission-proper is in the loose sense.
It is only after submission with following actions that one gain believe-proper that will enable 'faith' to be strengthen in one's heart.

The above support my explanation of 49:14 and 49:17.
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Old 03-27-2016, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Aslamoo does not mean "accepted Islam" but "submitted" (think of your loose form). It does not say to whom.
I don't think you have given the actual translation of 'aslamoo.'
In the Quran context, when 'submitted' is not specifically qualified, it is most likely 'submitted to Allah'.
It is blasphemous to submit to Muhammad in this context.
The proper word would be "give allegiance" to Muhammad not submit to Muhammad.

Quote:
All words are critical. As for "islamakum", it does not "imply", as you imagine, "your Islam" but means "your submitting". Again, their submitting could not have been to Allah because "eeman" hadn't even entered their hearts yet.
All these terms in context lead to the inference, the wandering Arabs were already Muslims.

Quote:
No problem with it being translated as "submitted" or "surrendered" but "accepted Islam" and "embraced Islam" is out because they could not have embraced Islam without "eeman".
It is obvious in this context of the Quran, "submitted" or "surrendered" is reference to Allah and submitted to Allah mean accepted or embraced Islam, thus is a Muslim.

You are merely introducing "eeman" to confuse the situation.
"eeman" is a term that entails a process and set of process.
As I mentioned, the process of "eeman" has degrees.

The process of "eeman" cover the following procedures;

1. Believe [loose form] -mental
2. Submit [proper form] - mental
3. BELIEVE proper, mental and physical actions.
4 -worship,
5 -obey,
6 -serves,
7 -doing one's duty
8 -remember Allah at all times.

1 & 2 are imperative otherwise one is not a Muslim by definition. At this stage there is a degree of "eeman."
However one "eeman" gradually develop to higher degree as one sustain 1 & 2 and perform 4-8 sincerely on a daily basis.

Therefore "eeman" proper is a process that must involve procedures 1-8 above.

Agree?

The above is typical of any process of human nature and psychological in terms of knowledge, skills and various competencies.


Quote:
Who said they were "muslimeen"? To be "muslimeen", they had to have "eeman" in their hearts first. It is submitting to Allah that makes one Muslim after believing.
As shown above, they are Muslims by definition when they have done the basic 1 & 2 steps.

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No. Not at all. It is, in fact, submitting in this case that is in looser sense. BELIEVE here is very much pure believing, "al-eeman" that had not even entered their hearts (fee quloobikum = in their hearts). There can be no Muslim without "eeman".
As I have explained "eeman" entails a set of procedures of 1-8 above.

The 'believe' in 1 and preceding submission in 2, is the loose form.
The proper and serious higher degree of 'BELIEVE' is after submission-proper.
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Old 03-28-2016, 01:32 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The verse means specific submitting after believing leading to becoming a Muslim. In "muslimoona" is specific submitting after believing. It will not be specific but in loose secular sense submit if one had not believed.
Note I presented 46 English translations of 49:17.
Asad is the only one who think [put in parenthesis] the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad.
So it is 45 to 1 against Asad and your view.

In the context of the whole Quran, I am quite sure Asad is wrong in this case.


This is an interesting case to demonstrate not knowing Arabic is not critical if there are 46 [or more] English translations to refer to. All the 46 translator got the right words, i.e. 'believe' and 'submit' and understood the right context and only Asad got it differently and wrongly.
What is critical here is an understanding of context, semantics, philosophy, human nature, psychology along with understanding the whole of the Quran.
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