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Old 03-28-2016, 02:05 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is an interesting point re 49:14 from an Islamic Scholar,
http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_...le/en_Iman.pdf
Allah distinguished between Eeman and Islam, when He said,
“The Bedouins say, ‘We believe.’ Say, ‘You believe not but say, ‘We have submitted (in Islam),’ for faith has not yet entered your hearts.’ But if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not decrease anything in rewards for your deeds. Verily, Allah is oftForgiving, Most Merciful.” [Soorah al-Hujurat (49):14]
This verse was revealed when a clan of Banu Asad (a tribe) were forced by drought to come to al-Medina, they accepted Islam, and requested charity; claiming that they were Mu’minoon (those who possess complete Eeman).
So, Allah notified these people, in this verse, that they were not Mu’minoon (complete believers) but they have merely submitted to Islam, however, their hearts were not devoid of Eeman, because if it was so, then Allah would not have promised rewards for their obedience in the later verse.

The case described here is that they [wandering Arabs] do not posses complete Eeman yet, but they are not outside of Islam; they are Muslims.
The above scholar has the same as my view and 45 of the English translators of the Quran I had listed.

Note his point:

The wandering Arabs has merely submitted to Islam,
they do not possess complete Eeman but
they are not outside of Islam.
If they are inside Islam, then they are Muslims.

If they are Muslims they must have submitted to Allah, NOT to Muhammad as you are claiming in 49:14.


Note from that link;
A disbeliever is someone, who leaves [or not in] the fold of Islam.
A Muslim is one, who is in the fold of Islam, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of Eeman or he may be committing some major/minor sins.
A Mu’min is one, who completely fulfills the obligatory requirements of Eeman.
So, every complete Mu’min must first be a Muslim. However, not every Muslim is necessarily a Mu’min.
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Old 03-28-2016, 07:54 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I presented 46 English translations of 49:17.
Asad is the only one who think [put in parenthesis] the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad.
So it is 45 to 1 against Asad and your view.

In the context of the whole Quran, I am quite sure Asad is wrong in this case.

This is an interesting case to demonstrate not knowing Arabic is not critical if there are 46 [or more] English translations to refer to. All the 46 translator got the right words, i.e. 'believe' and 'submit' and understood the right context and only Asad got it differently and wrongly.
What is critical here is an understanding of context, semantics, philosophy, human nature, psychology along with understanding the whole of the Quran.
Asad is, in this case, the only one right. There can be no Muslim wihout first believing (having eeman). Asad is the only one who took the context of the verse, the context of the chapter and the context of the whole Qur'an into consideration. The rest were either too literal or did not understand the context.

Please keep in mind that there can be no Muslim without having to believe first (be a Mu'min first). In other words, a Muslim has to be a Mu'min as well but one can be a Mu'min but not a Muslim in the beginning. This is why they were addressed as Mu'mineen first before they were given many other commands to obey later on, to be known as Muslimeen. In verse 49:14 and in verse 49:17 they are not addressed as Muslimeen or even Mu'hmineen because they had not yet believed. Their submitting was of a very loose form as is in the secular sense.
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Old 03-28-2016, 09:05 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is an interesting point re 49:14 from an Islamic Scholar,
http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_...le/en_Iman.pdf
Allah distinguished between Eeman and Islam, when He said,
“The Bedouins say, ‘We believe.’ Say, ‘You believe not but say, ‘We have submitted (in Islam),’ for faith has not yet entered your hearts.’ But if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not decrease anything in rewards for your deeds. Verily, Allah is oftForgiving, Most Merciful.” [Soorah al-Hujurat (49):14]
This verse was revealed when a clan of Banu Asad (a tribe) were forced by drought to come to al-Medina, they accepted Islam, and requested charity; claiming that they were Mu’minoon (those who possess complete Eeman).
So, Allah notified these people, in this verse, that they were not Mu’minoon (complete believers) but they have merely submitted to Islam, however, their hearts were not devoid of Eeman, because if it was so, then Allah would not have promised rewards for their obedience in the later verse.

The case described here is that they [wandering Arabs] do not posses complete Eeman yet, but they are not outside of Islam; they are Muslims.
How can they be in Islam without believing? Tht is a crazy thought of people.

The verse 49:14 clearly describes the fact that they were neither believing in Allah nor obeying any command from Allah but if they obey Allah (submit to Allah after believing) they will have the reward. The condition stated in the verse for reward is both believing in Allah and obeying Him (submitting to Him only).

Quote:
The above scholar has the same as my view and 45 of the English translators of the Quran I had listed.

Note his point:

The wandering Arabs has merely submitted to Islam,
they do not possess complete Eeman but
they are not outside of Islam.
They did not have any eeman/ did not believe. No non-believer can be regarded within Al-Islsm.

Quote:
If they are inside Islam, then they are Muslims.
If they have not believed and have not submitted to Allah, they are not yet in Islam and, therefore, are not yet Muslims.

Quote:
If they are Muslims they must have submitted to Allah, NOT to Muhammad as you are claiming in 49:14.
But we already know that they had not yet believed in Allah and, therefore, not submitted to Allah yet, otherwise Allah would not have said that they have not believed.

Quote:
Note from that link;

A disbeliever is someone, who leaves [or not in] the fold of Islam.
Anyone who does not believe (does not have eeman/does not believe) is outside Al-Islam.
Quote:
A Muslim is one, who is in the fold of Islam, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of Eeman or he may be committing some major/minor sins.
Nobody can be Muslim or in Al-Islam without having any eeman. Having no eeman means no eeman has entered his heart.
Quote:
A Mu’min is one, who completely fulfills the obligatory requirements of Eeman.
The only obligatory condition to be met by a Mu'min is believing in the Qur'an to be from Allah. The rest of the obligatory requirements are within this one condition.
Quote:
So, every complete Mu’min must first be a Muslim. However, Qur'an not every Muslim is necessarily a Mu’min.
So, even though literally a Mu'min is someone who has eeman in Allah, and a Muslim is someone who submits to Allah, collectively only a Muslim is a Believer (Mu 'min) and Submitter to Allah. Once a Believer progresses to submitting/obeying the commands practically, he becomes a Muslim. Believing, therefore, is the beginning for one to walk the path of submitting to Allah. This is why saying Shahada is regarded as beginning for anyone to become a Muslim. He then can't just stop there and do no work and obey no command. He has to do work and obey the commands from Allah. And it is the obeying these commands that is submitting to Allah that makes one proper Muslim (someone who is also a Mu'min).

There is no Muslim who does not believe in the first pillar (Shahada). Anyone who does not believe in this first and the fundamental step into Islam is not yet a Muslim. This is first step in believing as well as submitting to Allah. It is both believing and submitting in one go.
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Old 03-28-2016, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is an interesting point re 49:14 from an Islamic Scholar,
http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_...le/en_Iman.pdf
Allah distinguished between Eeman and Islam, when He said,
“The Bedouins say, ‘We believe.’ Say, ‘You believe not but say, ‘We have submitted (in Islam),’ for faith has not yet entered your hearts.’ But if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not decrease anything in rewards for your deeds. Verily, Allah is oftForgiving, Most Merciful.” [Soorah al-Hujurat (49):14]
This verse was revealed when a clan of Banu Asad (a tribe) were forced by drought to come to al-Medina, they accepted Islam, and requested charity; claiming that they were Mu’minoon (those who possess complete Eeman).
So, Allah notified these people, in this verse, that they were not Mu’minoon (complete believers) but they have merely submitted to Islam, however, their hearts were not devoid of Eeman, because if it was so, then Allah would not have promised rewards for their obedience in the later verse.

The case described here is that they [wandering Arabs] do not posses complete Eeman yet, but they are not outside of Islam; they are Muslims.
The above scholar has the same as my view and 45 of the English translators of the Quran I had listed.

Note his point:

The wandering Arabs has merely submitted to Islam,
they do not possess complete Eeman but
they are not outside of Islam.
If they are inside Islam, then they are Muslims.

If they are Muslims they must have submitted to Allah, NOT to Muhammad as you are claiming in 49:14.


Note from that link;
A disbeliever is someone, who leaves [or not in] the fold of Islam.
A Muslim is one, who is in the fold of Islam, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of Eeman or he may be committing some major/minor sins.
A Mu’min is one, who completely fulfills the obligatory requirements of Eeman.
So, every complete Mu’min must first be a Muslim. However, not every Muslim is necessarily a Mu’min.
This part is partially incorrect.

A Muslim is one, who is in the fold of Islam, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of Eeman or he may be committing some major/minor sins.

A Muslim is a person who performs the action of Islam. As to perform Islam requires Belief, Sincerity, The intent to serve Allaah(swt) and doing so to the best of one's ability. A person can be Muslim even if they are unaware of the Ummah and no other person accepts them as being Muslim.

As there is no way to see into a person's thoughts, feelings and intents. We can not prove anyone is a Muslim therefore every person who says they are Muslim is considered to be Muslim and part of the Ummah.

With that said it is also possible for a non-Muslim be perceived as and believe they are part of the Ummah even though they have never performed Islam.
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Old 03-30-2016, 01:47 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This part is partially incorrect.

A Muslim is one, who is in the fold of Islam, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of Eeman or he may be committing some major/minor sins.

A Muslim is a person who performs the action of Islam. As to perform Islam requires Belief, Sincerity, The intent to serve Allaah(swt) and doing so to the best of one's ability. A person can be Muslim even if they are unaware of the Ummah and no other person accepts them as being Muslim.

As there is no way to see into a person's thoughts, feelings and intents. We can not prove anyone is a Muslim therefore every person who says they are Muslim is considered to be Muslim and part of the Ummah.

With that said it is also possible for a non-Muslim be perceived as and believe they are part of the Ummah even though they have never performed Islam.
I believe you got is wrong.

The right view is:
A Muslim[specific] is one, who is in the fold of Islam, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of Eeman or he may be committing some major/minor sins.

A specific Muslim as above is one who has submitted to Allah via entering into a covenant with Allah, explicitly or implicitly. To qualify as a fuller fledge Muslim, s/he must perform the 5 pillars of Islam.

Now a specific Muslim as above can be,
1. Externally verified by others.
2. Internally confirmed by one real convictions.

There is no issue with the above, if a person has performed the 5 pillars s/he is recognized by others for various human reason but not Allah's judgment.

If a specific Muslims insist he is a genuine specific Muslim, he should know what he has performed and it is for Allah to do the final judgment.

The above is the right view while your views are very mixed and messy.


Apart from being a specific Muslim,
a Muslim in general can progress to be a Mu'min.
To qualify a Muslim must have strong Eeman from performing the 6 Pillars of Eeman.

A Mumin who is generally a Muslim can be a Mushin after performing the necessary pillars of Inhsaan.

I don't see any confusion with the above presentation.

49:14 is the determining verse that demonstrate the distinction between a Muslim [specific] and a Mu'min [specific].
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Old 03-30-2016, 03:57 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Apart from being a specific Muslim,
a Muslim in general can progress to be a Mu'min.
To qualify a Muslim must have strong Eeman from performing the 6 Pillars of Eeman.

A Mumin who is generally a Muslim can be a Mushin after performing the necessary pillars of Inhsaan.

I don't see any confusion with the above presentation.
It's your presentation and you,, therefore, can't see any confusion with it. But I can clearly see it is not the case in the Qur'an. It is Muslim who has to be both Believer (Mu'min) and the doer of good (Mu'hsin).

The first time someone believes in Allah, he is Mu'min. But a Muslim does more than just believing in Allah.
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Old 03-30-2016, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe you got is wrong.

The right view is:
A Muslim[specific] is one, who is in the fold of Islam, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of Eeman or he may be committing some major/minor sins.

A specific Muslim as above is one who has submitted to Allah via entering into a covenant with Allah, explicitly or implicitly. To qualify as a fuller fledge Muslim, s/he must perform the 5 pillars of Islam.

Now a specific Muslim as above can be,
1. Externally verified by others.
2. Internally confirmed by one real convictions.

There is no issue with the above, if a person has performed the 5 pillars s/he is recognized by others for various human reason but not Allah's judgment.

If a specific Muslims insist he is a genuine specific Muslim, he should know what he has performed and it is for Allah to do the final judgment.

The above is the right view while your views are very mixed and messy.


Apart from being a specific Muslim,
a Muslim in general can progress to be a Mu'min.
To qualify a Muslim must have strong Eeman from performing the 6 Pillars of Eeman.

A Mumin who is generally a Muslim can be a Mushin after performing the necessary pillars of Inhsaan.

I don't see any confusion with the above presentation.

49:14 is the determining verse that demonstrate the distinction between a Muslim [specific] and a Mu'min [specific].
The statement:

Quote:
The right view is:
A Muslim[specific] is one, who is in the fold of Islam, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of Eeman or he may be committing some major/minor sins.
is about as inaccurate as a person who says:

Quote:
The right view is:
An Atheist[specific] is one, who is in the fold of Atheism, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of cisbelief or he may be committing some major/minor tendencies of theism

Atheism and Islam have about equal levels of membership requirements and unified organization. NONE There is no joining or membership. All people who perform Islam are the Ummah which simply means "all people that perform Islam"
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Old 03-31-2016, 03:18 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It's your presentation and you,, therefore, can't see any confusion with it. But I can clearly see it is not the case in the Qur'an. It is Muslim who has to be both Believer (Mu'min) and the doer of good (Mu'hsin).

The first time someone believes in Allah, he is Mu'min. But a Muslim does more than just believing in Allah.
A mu'min and Mushin are both Muslim [loose sense].
But a Muslim [specific] is not a mu'min or a Mushin.

To be a Mu'min, a Muslim [specific] must achieve strong eeman via the 6 Pillars of Eeman.
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Old 03-31-2016, 03:32 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The statement:
The right view is:
A Muslim[specific] is one, who is in the fold of Islam, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of Eeman or he may be committing some major/minor sins.


is about as inaccurate as a person who says:
The right view is:
An Atheist[specific] is one, who is in the fold of Atheism, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of disbelief or he may be committing some major/minor tendencies of theism

Atheism and Islam have about equal levels of membership requirements and unified organization. NONE There is no joining or membership. All people who perform Islam are the Ummah which simply means "all people that perform Islam"
Your comparison don't work at all.

An atheist, specific or otherwise cannot have any degree of disbelief in God at all nor have any degree of theism. An atheist, specific or otherwise has a 100% disbelief in God.
A person who has some degree of disbelief is an agnostic.

The right view is:
A Muslim[specific] is one, who is in the fold of Islam, though he may not be fulfilling all aspects of Eeman or he may be committing some major/minor sins.
A Muslim [specific] is one who has submitted and entered into a covenant with Allah, but he may not have been praying 5 time a day and regularly because he was lazy and for no good reasons. Thus he has committed some minor sin but he is still a Muslim [specific] nevertheless by the fact that he has submitted and entered into a covenant with Allah.

A Muslim [specific], a Mumin and a Mushin are all Muslims [loose term].

So what is wrong with the above description.
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Old 03-31-2016, 03:47 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A mu'min and Mushin are both Muslim [loose sense].
But a Muslim [specific] is not a mu'min or a Mushin.

To be a Mu'min, a Muslim [specific] must achieve strong eeman via the 6 Pillars of Eeman.
And how many pillers of eeman has a Mu'min achieved?

How many pillers of eeman one has to achieve before he can be called a "Mu'min"?

In the Qur'an, all these pillers of eeman are requirements of a Mu'min to become a Muslim so that he does not die without being Muslim.
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