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Old 03-31-2016, 04:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A mu'min and Mushin are both Muslim [loose sense].
They are Muslims because they have to submit and they do submit.

Quote:
But a Muslim [specific] is not a mu'min or a Mushin.
A Muslim must believe (be mu'min) and must do good (be mu'hsin).

Quote:
To be a Mu'min, a Muslim [specific] must achieve strong eeman via the 6 Pillars of Eeman.
That means a Mu'min has strong eeman throught pillers of eeman. How did he achieve those 6 pillers? Can he achieve those 6 pillers without submitting to Allah?
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Old 03-31-2016, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
And how many pillers of eeman has a Mu'min achieved?

How many pillers of eeman one has to achieve before he can be called a "Mu'min"?

In the Qur'an, all these pillers of eeman are requirements of a Mu'min to become a Muslim so that he does not die without being Muslim.
In general there are 6 pillars of eeman for a Muslim [specific] to progress to be a Mu'min [specific].
Just as the 5 pillars of Islam are not specified precisely in the Quran, the 6 pillars of eeman are also specified in the Quran. However if one get into depth into the Quran one will be able to abstract what is necessary to achieve strong eeman to qualify as mu'min.

Once a person has entered into a covenant with Allah, s/he is technically a Muslim [loose] until he become an apostate non-Muslim via various reasons.
Such a Muslim [loose] will progress to be a Muslim [specific] when he has done sufficient of the requirements of the 6 pillars of Islam [submission] [pilgrimage not compulsory].

Thereafter a Muslim [specific] can progress to be a Mu'min [specific] by striving to accomplish strong eeman via the 6 pillars of eeman.

A mu'min is technically a Muslim [loose] and a Muslim [specific], so a Mu'min will die as a Muslim.
So there is no way a mu'min will even die without being a Muslims.
In fact a mu'min will die with a double honors, i.e. as a Muslim [loose] and a Muslim [specific].

The above points are supported by the Quran, e.g. 49:14 where it differentiated a Mu'min from a 'Muslim' [loose] and Muslims [specific]. The wandering Arabs are merely Muslim [loose] as they had just submitted to Allah.
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Old 03-31-2016, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
They are Muslims because they have to submit and they do submit.
Yes both Mu'min and Muslim [specific] or Muslim [loose] are in a state of submission to Allah all the time starting from the time they entered into a covenant with Allah.

Example, once a person is bought as a slave, he is always in a state of submission to his master until he is free or escapes. However this state of submission is still in degrees, say 75% of submissiveness which is necessary for the person to qualify as a slave [specific] and must do what his master commands.
Now this 75% state of submission represent the normal state of submission as a slave. However the master can enforce a higher degree of submission from the slave from the normal 75% by commanding the slave to clean the master's feet by licking it with his tongue. This would represent a higher degree of submissiveness. Or a master could force his female slave to submit to all sort of sexual perversions from the master, this would be higher level of submissiveness, say 90%.

The above example is the same when Allah demanded fuller surrender from a Muslim [who has already submitted earlier]. In this case Allah is demanding a higher degree of submission and not resubmission.

Quote:
A Muslim must believe (be mu'min) and must do good (be mu'hsin).
You got this wrong and this is not represented in the Quran. According to the Quran, the following is the actual progress of a Muslim.

The Process of Progress
1. Muslim [loose] when entered into a covenant with Allah [submitted].
2. Muslim [specific] when has performed the 5 pillars of Islam [except pilgrimage]
3. Mu'min -when a Muslim [specific] has performed and achieve strong eeman via the 6 pillars of eeman.
4. Mushin -when a Mu'min has performed the necessary pillars of Inhsaan.

Get it?
There is no other way.
All the above are basically Muslim [loose] until they are apostate.

Quote:
That means a Mu'min has strong eeman throught pillers of eeman. How did he achieve those 6 pillers? Can he achieve those 6 pillers without submitting to Allah?
The 6 pillars of eeman is not specific but can be abstracted from the Quran.
To achieve strong eeman a Mu'min must perform them satisfactory in the eyes of Allah.

Can he achieve those 6 pillars without submitting to Allah?
Note the process 1-4.
To be a Mu'min the person MUST complete process 1-3 without exception.
In Process 1, the person has to submit to Allah.
Therefore a Mu'min is in a state of submission to Allah.

Thus a person cannot be a Mu'min until
1. he has submitted to Allah on a permanent basis
2. he has progressed and qualified as a Muslim [specific].
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Old 04-01-2016, 03:19 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You got this wrong and this is not represented in the Quran. According to the Quran, the following is the actual progress of a Muslim.

The Process of Progress
1. Muslim [loose] when entered into a covenant with Allah [submitted].
2. Muslim [specific] when has performed the 5 pillars of Islam [except pilgrimage]
3. Mu'min -when a Muslim [specific] has performed and achieve strong eeman via the 6 pillars of eeman.
4. Mushin -when a Mu'min has performed the necessary pillars of Inhsaan.

Get it?
There is no other way.
All the above are basically Muslim [loose] until they are apostate.
Yes, you get it, in he end.

A Muslim is a Muslim.
A Muslim is also a Mu'min..
A Muslim is also a Mu'hsin.
A Muslim is also a Muttaqi.
Do not die unless a Muslim.
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Old 04-02-2016, 03:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Yes, you get it, in he end.

A Muslim is a Muslim.
A Muslim is also a Mu'min..
A Muslim is also a Mu'hsin.
A Muslim is also a Muttaqi.
Do not die unless a Muslim.
I don't agree.
You are deceptive by conflating and messing up the terms.

I would put them in this correct way, i.e.

A Muslim [specific] is a Muslim [loose, in general].
A Mu'min is a Muslim [loose, in general].
A Mu'hsin is a Muslim [loose, in general].
A Muttaqi is a Muslim [loose, in general].

Do not die unless a Muslim [loose, in general].
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Old 04-02-2016, 04:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't agree.
You are deceptive by conflating and messing up the terms.

I would put them in this correct way, i.e.

A Muslim [specific] is a Muslim [loose, in general].
A Mu'min is a Muslim [loose, in general].
A Mu'hsin is a Muslim [loose, in general].
A Muttaqi is a Muslim [loose, in general].

Do not die unless a Muslim [loose, in general].
I do not understand how one can be either Muslim (General) or Muslims (specific) a Muslim is a person who submits to Allaaah(swt) Either a person submits or they don't.
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:39 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't agree.
You are deceptive by conflating and messing up the terms.

I would put them in this correct way, i.e.

A Muslim [specific] is a Muslim [loose, in general].
A Mu'min is a Muslim [loose, in general].
A Mu'hsin is a Muslim [loose, in general].
A Muttaqi is a Muslim [loose, in general].

Do not die unless a Muslim [loose, in general].
There is no Muslim who does not believe.
There is no Muslim who does not submit only to Allah.
Anyone who submits to another human being is not a Muslim but slave to that human being.
Only those are Muslims who believe and serve Allah. They are serving Allah by obeying Allah.
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Old 04-02-2016, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I do not understand how one can be either Muslim (General) or Muslims (specific) a Muslim is a person who submits to Allaaah(swt) Either a person submits or they don't.
The point is when a person submits to Allah he is a Muslim in general.
On day one a person decides to declare the Shahada and that declaration is also a declaration that she/he is submitting to Allah. Once a person submit to Allah, that is permanent until the person become an apostate voluntarily or commit an unpardonable sin.

1. Note on the first day all he did was submission in his mind by declaring the Shahada. As such he is merely a Muslim in general. There are people to declare and affirm the Shahada and thereafter do perform the 5 pillars of Islam or do not perform it diligently.

2. To be a Muslim [specific] one must perform the 5 pillars of Islam [pilgrimage is not compulsory] diligently and consistently for at least for some reasonable period.

It is obvious there is a difference between the 'Muslim_ness' between the person in 1 and the person in 2.
Agree?

A Muslim [general] is one who had declared the Shahada and entered into a covenant with Allah.

A Muslim [Specific] is definitely a Muslim [general] but he has more qualities in performing the 5 pillars of Islam diligently and consistently for a reasonable period.

Agree to the above?
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There is no Muslim who does not believe.
There is no Muslim who does not submit only to Allah.
Anyone who submits to another human being is not a Muslim but slave to that human being.
Only those are Muslims who believe and serve Allah. They are serving Allah by obeying Allah.
The following is more precise;

There is no Muslim [General, loose, wide] who does not believe.
There is no Muslim [General, loose, wide] who does not submit only to Allah.
Only those are Muslims [General, loose, wide] who believe and serve Allah. They are serving Allah by obeying Allah.

To be more precise in what degree of believe [serve, worship, obey] one need to qualify with specific terms, i.e. Muslim [Specific], Mu'min, Mushin, Muttagin, etc. and their respective qualities and elements [pillars].

It is conventionally accepted and it is correct to state that Muslim [general] are the adherent of Islam. Anyone who is related to Islam is labelled a Muslim [general, loose, wide term]. We don't label them Mu'min.
The same linguistic principles are applied to Buddhists, Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc.

Just as there are Muslim [general, loose, wide term] and Muslims [specific] the same applies to Buddhists [general, loose, wide term] and Buddhists [specific]. Buddhists [general, loose, wide term] are those who are born to Buddhist parents and those who accepted the Buddha but are not serious in practicing Buddhism. This is the same for Christians, Hindus and other believers of religions.

The above is a standard principles which is applicable to all religions.
Get it?
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Old 04-04-2016, 02:50 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is conventionally accepted and it is correct to state that Muslim [general] are the adherent of Islam. Anyone who is related to Islam is labelled a Muslim [general, loose, wide term]. We don't label them Mu'min.
Then is a Mu'min related to another religion than Islam? If yes, why, and if no, why not?
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