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Old 04-07-2016, 04:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have always given detail justifications, examples and references from the Quran.
There are no loose terms but only precise terms in the Qur'an.

Quote:
On the other hand you are simply waving statements from your head without justifications at all.
Quote the verses that state "loose" term for Muslim but not a precise term for a Muslim.

Quote:
The loose term and strict terms are in accordance with the context of the Quran.
Muslim is a precise term, the only term used in the whole Qur'an.

Quote:
In the Quran [I have provided verses], the performance of a Muslim [loose] are ranked in accordance to their deeds and will be accorded rewards based on the ranking they have achieved.
Ranking/level, high or low, is of only the deeds and not the term "Muslim". A Muslim is a Muslim, and not loose Muslim or tight Muslim. His good deeds may be less or more but he is still a Muslim.

Quote:
In addition, in the Quran [verses provided somewhere], Allah exhorted Muslims to compete [race, vie] with one another.
Not with Muslims, the followers of messenger Muhammad!

Quote:
Such competition and ranking of Muslims indicate there are strict sense of a Muslim and a loose sense of a Muslim.
No. There is no such competition to be won or lost.

Quote:
If all the Muslims are the same in the loose sense, then all will get the same reward regardless of their performance.
The degree/level of performance is not the same thing as the term Muslim which is precise term.
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There are no loose terms but only precise terms in the Qur'an.

Quote the verses that state "loose" term for Muslim but not a precise term for a Muslim.

Muslim is a precise term, the only term used in the whole Qur'an.

Ranking/level, high or low, is of only the deeds and not the term "Muslim". A Muslim is a Muslim, and not loose Muslim or tight Muslim. His good deeds may be less or more but he is still a Muslim.

Not with Muslims, the followers of messenger Muhammad!

No. There is no such competition to be won or lost.

The degree/level of performance is not the same thing as the term Muslim which is precise term.

I have no good way to answer this. Just personal experiences and my own opinions. I think the definition of a Muslim is so simple, it has become complex for people that see issues that do not exist. A person is either a Muslim or is not a Muslim. In today's world people want to see something in between sort of like stages of development. They do not understand that our individual differences are not stages of Muslim. Being Muslim does not do away with individualism, that is a completely different topic and not related to anyone being Muslim. A newborn baby is no less Muslim than the world's oldest and most educated Muslim. Both completely equal in terms of being a Muslim.

There is no "generic"Muslim simply because there is no specific Muslim. A person is a Muslim simply because they are a Muslim. No steps or levels. It is all or nothing. It is sort of like the concept of being alive. A person is either alive of not alive.
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Old 04-08-2016, 12:45 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There are no loose terms but only precise terms in the Qur'an.

Quote the verses that state "loose" term for Muslim but not a precise term for a Muslim.

Muslim is a precise term, the only term used in the whole Qur'an.
Here is one verse which imply "Muslim" in the loose term, i.e. a universal and not specific term.
15:2 It may be that those who disbelieve wish ardently that they were muslims.
Rubama yawaddu allatheena kafaroo law kanoo muslimeena
Why Allah did not use the term 'mumin' [believe] against 'disbelieve' [kafaroo]?

Note there are many other verses with the term 'muslim' [loose] in the Quran.

Another point is, sound and rhyming are critical elements in the Quran. Perhaps these terms 'mumin' 'muslim' 'islam' are used to fit into the rhyming and thus the reader has to rely on the context to determine it is in the strict or loose sense.

Quote:
Ranking/level, high or low, is of only the deeds and not the term "Muslim". A Muslim is a Muslim, and not loose Muslim or tight Muslim. His good deeds may be less or more but he is still a Muslim.
There is where you have a problem with linguistic and semantics on this issue.
In the mind thinking is thinking, but in context not all who think are thinker [strict] while the rest are thinkers [loose].

In education, a student is a student.
All students acts are to study and learn.
But there are grades to each student, i.e. A, B, C ... or F student.
It is the same for a Muslim where his deeds determine the his degree of Muslim_ness, i.e. muslim [strict], mumin [strict] or 'mushin '[strict].

They are all Muslims but they will be ranked in the hereafter and will receive different degrees of rewards and punishments depending on what they have sowed on Earth.

Quote:
Not with Muslims, the followers of messenger Muhammad!
No. There is no such competition to be won or lost.
I told you there are verses in the Quran where Allah exhort Muslims [loose] to compete and vie amongst themselves.
You have not read of such verses?
You want me to produce them, which will prove you are not familiar with the Quran.

Quote:
The degree/level of performance is not the same thing as the term Muslim which is precise term.
What I mean those who entered into a covenant with Allah are termed Muslims.

Quote:
And strive for Allah with the endeavour which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor-due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!
The above refer to Muslims of old.
At the same time the principle is those who had entered into a covenant with Allah with reference to the Quran revealed by Allah are also term "Muslims" [loose].
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Old 04-08-2016, 12:53 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I have no good way to answer this. Just personal experiences and my own opinions. I think the definition of a Muslim is so simple, it has become complex for people that see issues that do not exist. A person is either a Muslim or is not a Muslim. In today's world people want to see something in between sort of like stages of development. They do not understand that our individual differences are not stages of Muslim. Being Muslim does not do away with individualism, that is a completely different topic and not related to anyone being Muslim. A newborn baby is no less Muslim than the world's oldest and most educated Muslim. Both completely equal in terms of being a Muslim.

There is no "generic"Muslim simply because there is no specific Muslim. A person is a Muslim simply because they are a Muslim. No steps or levels. It is all or nothing. It is sort of like the concept of being alive. A person is either alive of not alive.
Note the same I replied to Khalif;

I told you there are verses in the Quran where Allah exhort Muslims [loose] to compete and vie amongst themselves.
You have not read of such verses?
You want me to produce them, which will prove you are not familiar with the Quran.

Here is one verse,
3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. These are of the righteous.
There are other verses with the above implications, i.e. vie, compete to achieve higher grades, degrees and rank.

In reality the above is not God's exhortation. It was Muhammad's or a group of people who had vested interests in the Quran. The more the followers compete with each other, the more they gain.
An all powerful and all benevolent God if it exists will not ask believers to compete with each other to gain more rewards in heaven but exhort them to do the best for themselves and for their own personal development.
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Old 04-08-2016, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the same I replied to Khalif;

I told you there are verses in the Quran where Allah exhort Muslims [loose] to compete and vie amongst themselves.
You have not read of such verses?
You want me to produce them, which will prove you are not familiar with the Quran.

Here is one verse,
3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. These are of the righteous.
There are other verses with the above implications, i.e. vie, compete to achieve higher grades, degrees and rank.

In reality the above is not God's exhortation. It was Muhammad's or a group of people who had vested interests in the Quran. The more the followers compete with each other, the more they gain.
An all powerful and all benevolent God if it exists will not ask believers to compete with each other to gain more rewards in heaven but exhort them to do the best for themselves and for their own personal development.
A problem with translation. The word يُسَارِعُونَ (yusarieun) has no English equivalent, it is being translated as
" vie one with another" yusarieun carries with it the concept of rushing, or hurry ,

A direct/literal translation:
Quote:
"3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and hurry good works. These are of the righteous."
does not make much sense in English, it appears the translators tried to Anglicize it to be more in line with English.

In Arabic the ayyat does not give a concept of competition, more of a concept of being eager to do good.

The Arabic word for vie/compete is tunafis (تنافس ) it does not appear in that ayyat.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 04-08-2016 at 11:45 AM..
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Old 04-08-2016, 10:42 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is one verse which imply "Muslim" in the loose term, i.e. a universal and not specific term.
15:2 It may be that those who disbelieve wish ardently that they were muslims.
Rubama yawaddu allatheena kafaroo law kanoo muslimeena
Why Allah did not use the term 'mumin' [believe] against 'disbelieve' [kafaroo]?
Because the term Muslim is stronger than the term Mu'min. A Muslim does more than just believing. He not only has eeman but also submits too.

A mu'min (believer) has to progress to be Muslim (believer + submitter in one) to keep his side of the covenant.

Quote:
Note there are many other verses with the term 'muslim' [loose] in the Quran.
All such verses have the same and precise term.

Quote:
Another point is, sound and rhyming are critical elements in the Quran. Perhaps these terms 'mumin' 'muslim' 'islam' are used to fit into the rhyming and thus the reader has to rely on the context to determine it is in the strict or loose sense.
There is no point in you doing such mental gymnastics; the Qur'an is not a poetry book.

Quote:
There is where you have a problem with linguistic and semantics on this issue.
In the mind thinking is thinking, but in context not all who think are thinker [strict] while the rest are thinkers [loose].
It's O.K. with me if you are loose thinker. :-)

Quote:
In education, a student is a student.
All students acts are to study and learn.
But there are grades to each student, i.e. A, B, C ... or F student.
It is the same for a Muslim where his deeds determine the his degree of Muslim_ness, i.e. muslim [strict], mumin [strict] or 'mushin '[strict].
You are hopeless in finding an appropriate analogy.

Quote:
They are all Muslims but they will be ranked in the hereafter and will receive different degrees of rewards and punishments depending on what they have sowed on Earth.
Level of reward or degree of award does not depend whether you are loose or tight but on the number of good deeds if you are a Muslim. A Muslim who does good deeds for others is also a Mu'hsin.

Quote:
I told you there are verses in the Quran where Allah exhort Muslims [loose] to compete and vie amongst themselves.
You have not read of such verses?
No. There are none.

Quote:
You want me to produce them, which will prove you are not familiar with the Quran.
Go on prove me wrong!

I know of only two verses in the whole Qur'an in which is anything resembling your imagination. One is about the righteous People of the Book and the other is not about vying in a competition with Muslims.

Quote:
What I mean those who entered into a covenant with Allah are termed Muslims.
No. You are wrong here.

It was Mu'mineen who had entered in a covenant with Allah (not Muslims). When they complied with their side's obligations in the terms of the covenant, they were then termed Muslims.

You won't find it the other way round in the Qur'an. I am saying so because I understand the Qur'an whereas you only read it.

Quote:
The above refer to Muslims of old.
At the same time the principle is those who had entered into a covenant with Allah with reference to the Quran revealed by Allah are also term "Muslims" [loose].
No. Not those who had entered the covenant but only those who had complied with it are Muslims.
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Old 04-08-2016, 10:50 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the same I replied to Khalif;

I told you there are verses in the Quran where Allah exhort Muslims [loose] to compete and vie amongst themselves.
You have not read of such verses?
You want me to produce them, which will prove you are not familiar with the Quran.

Here is one verse,
3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. These are of the righteous.
This verse is about the People of the Book. The verse is not about Muslims, the followers of the Qur'an. The verse does not talk about any competition but about being quick/fast/rush/hasten in doing righteous deeds.
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Old 04-08-2016, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A problem with translation. The word يُسَارِعُونَ (yusarieun) has no English equivalent, it is being translated as
" vie one with another" yusarieun carries with it the concept of rushing, or hurry ,

A direct/literal translation:
does not make much sense in English, it appears the translators tried to Anglicize it to be more in line with English.

In Arabic the ayyat does not give a concept of competition, more of a concept of being eager to do good.

The Arabic word for vie/compete is tunafis (تنافس ) it does not appear in that ayyat.
Note the translation by Asad, your favorite translator;
3:114 They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and vie with one another in doing good works: and these are among the righteous.
Most of the 46 translators I refer translated as "vie with one another" others translated as "hastening of good deeds," etc.

Btw, I am not trying to justify 'vie' as real competition in the strict sense, serious challenges between Muslims.
In this case, I mean the Muslims were exhorted to do better and obviously they have a lot of other Muslims to compare with.

My main point is based on the above exhortation of Muslims to do better [than previous and others] thus there must be degrees and grades of achievements between the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.

Note there are other verses in the Quran which exhort Muslim to do better and obvious vie [loose sense] with one another.
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Old 04-09-2016, 12:57 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the translation by Asad, your favorite translator;
3:114 They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and vie with one another in doing good works: and these are among the righteous.
Most of the 46 translators I refer translated as "vie with one another" others translated as "hastening of good deeds," etc.

Btw, I am not trying to justify 'vie' as real competition in the strict sense, serious challenges between Muslims.
In this case, I mean the Muslims were exhorted to do better and obviously they have a lot of other Muslims to compare with.

My main point is based on the above exhortation of Muslims to do better [than previous and others] thus there must be degrees and grades of achievements between the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.

Note there are other verses in the Quran which exhort Muslim to do better and obvious vie [loose sense] with one another.
Continuum,

"They" in 3:114 is not Muslims (mu'mineen of the Qur'an).
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:33 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

"They" in 3:114 is not Muslims (mu'mineen of the Qur'an).
That is the problem when you do not understand how to use strict and loose sense.

When I use the term 'Muslim' it is always in the loose sense, i.e. Muslim-in-general. In this case anyone who has declared the Shahada [explicit or implicit] is a Muslim in general.
A Muslim in general can be Muslim [strict], Mu'min [strict] or [Mushin] strict.
Thus if 3:114 refers to 'mu'min' then I am not wrong because a mu'min is still a Muslim-in-general.
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