U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 04-09-2016, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,352,531 times
Reputation: 7407

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the translation by Asad, your favorite translator;
3:114 They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and vie with one another in doing good works: and these are among the righteous.
Most of the 46 translators I refer translated as "vie with one another" others translated as "hastening of good deeds," etc.

Btw, I am not trying to justify 'vie' as real competition in the strict sense, serious challenges between Muslims.
In this case, I mean the Muslims were exhorted to do better and obviously they have a lot of other Muslims to compare with.

My main point is based on the above exhortation of Muslims to do better [than previous and others] thus there must be degrees and grades of achievements between the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.

Note there are other verses in the Quran which exhort Muslim to do better and obvious vie [loose sense] with one another.
While I find Asad to be the best translator I know of, I do not always agree with his translations.

I find the Qur'an and Islam to be quite opposed to competition among Muslims. It does not seem probable that any ayyat would promote competition among Muslims and the ayyats that are translated as doing so do not contain any Arabic word that indicates competition. I am not alone in this view for example:


Quote:
Shaykh ‘Abd ar-Rahmaan al-Barraak (may Allah preserve him) was asked:

We are six friends who meet every fifteen days in the house of one of us for a programme that includes Qur’an, al-Arb‘een al-Nawawiyyah (an-Nawawi’s Forty Hadeeth), Minhaaj al-Muslim, an exhortation from the one in whose house we are meeting, and Rijaal hawla ar-Rasool (Men around the Messenger – blessings and peace of Allah be upon him). We start with Qur’an and end with du‘aa’ (supplication). In between our programs, we have a piece of paper that we fill out every month, that we call a “competition schedule”; this includes a portion of Qur’an, the five daily prayers in the mosque, fasting and upholding ties of kinship. When we are consistent in filling it out, the results are good, but if we do not fill it out, the results are negative, because of neglecting to recite Qur’an. What is the Islamic ruling on this schedule? May Allah reward you with good.

He replied:

Praise be to Allah. What appears to me to be the case is that keeping this schedule and competing in filling it ou is a kind of innovation (bid‘ah), because it involves boasting to one another and admiring good deeds, as well as making manifest deeds which are best kept concealed, because concealing good deeds of charity, reciting Qur’an and dhikr should be furthest removed from showing off. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “Invoke your Lord with humility and in secret” [al-A ‘raaf 7:55] and “(This is) a mention of the mercy of your Lord to His slave Zakariya (Zachariah), When he called out his Lord (Allah) a call in secret” [Maryam 19:2-3]. And one of the seven whom Allah will shade with His shade (on the Day of Resurrection) will be “a man who gives charity and conceals it to such an extent that his left hand does not know what his right hand is giving.” See al-Bukhaari (660) and Muslim (1031). So what you should do is encourage one another to do more naafil (supererogatory) acts of obedience, and to do a great deal of that, each one doing whatever he is able to and keeping it between him and his Lord. In this manner you will be able to attain cooperation in righteousness and piety, whilst being safe from that which may nullify good deeds or detract from their reward. And Allah is the source of strength and the Guide to the straight path. And Allah knows best.

End quote from Islam Today website

https://islamqa.info/en/156560
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-11-2016, 12:06 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,600,780 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While I find Asad to be the best translator I know of, I do not always agree with his translations.
In this case whatever you agreed with Asad has to be 100% credible but has to be discounted by some %.

Quote:
I find the Qur'an and Islam to be quite opposed to competition among Muslims. It does not seem probable that any ayyat would promote competition among Muslims and the ayyats that are translated as doing so do not contain any Arabic word that indicates competition. I am not alone in this view for example:
I agree there is no indication Allah exhorted Muslims to compete fiercely with each other with any sense of pride [a sin anyway] as indicated in the link you provided.

But there are many verses in the Quran that exhort Muslims subtly [not deliberately] to vie with one another. Now with such verses some Muslims will be influenced to compete with each other.

Note my main point is as indicated in the Quran there are degrees of achievements for a Muslim and s/he will be accorded rewards based on his/her deeds on Earth.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-11-2016, 01:23 PM
 
3,187 posts, read 1,054,232 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is the problem when you do not understand how to use strict and loose sense.

When I use the term 'Muslim' it is always in the loose sense, i.e. Muslim-in-general. In this case anyone who has declared the Shahada [explicit or implicit] is a Muslim in general.
A Muslim in general can be Muslim [strict], Mu'min [strict] or [Mushin] strict.
Thus if 3:114 refers to 'mu'min' then I am not wrong because a mu'min is still a Muslim-in-general.
You misunderstand once more.

"They" mentioned in the verse 3:114 are neither the mu'mineen of the Qur'an nor the Muslims of the Qur'an. "They" are "The followers of the Book", the followers of the earlier revelations before the revelation of the Qur'an.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-11-2016, 01:39 PM
 
3,187 posts, read 1,054,232 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree there is no indication Allah exhorted Muslims to compete fiercely with each other with any sense of pride [a sin anyway] as indicated in the link you provided.

But there are many verses in the Quran that exhort Muslims subtly [not deliberately] to vie with one another. Now with such verses some Muslims will be influenced to compete with each other.
The next step down would be...the Muslims are competing with each other in making money.

Quote:
Note my main point is as indicated in the Quran there are degrees of achievements for a Muslim and s/he will be accorded rewards based on his/her deeds on Earth.
That too is dependant on the individual achievement rather than on winning a competition with each other for achievement.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-11-2016, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,352,531 times
Reputation: 7407
Also are to not judge and assume the other person is doing to the best of their abilities.

Quote:
“Beware of assumptions, for assumption is the falsest of speech, and do not be inquisitive, and do not spy upon one another, and do not vie with one another, and do not envy one another, and do not hate one another, and do not shun one another; be fellow-brothers and slaves of Allah.”If only the members of the Muslim community would adhere to this sublime behavior, their enemies would never dare to attack them and their famous policy of “divide and rule” will never succeed because the hearts are united and the souls are pure.

Abstaining from Judging the Intentions of Others

This is one of the greatest causes that help one think well of others. One leaves the intentions to the only One who knows them: Allah The Almighty, for He did not command us to check each others' hearts and intentions, and thus we have to avoid harboring ill-thoughts about others.

Thinking Well of Others Relieves the Heart
Competition among Muslims regarding our performance of Islam is an impossibility as we do not compare our actions with each other. We assume every Muslim is doing the best their abilities allow and that is all any of us can do. What my Brothers and Sister do does not set the standard for me, that is set by my own abilities and if I am doing all I am capable of. Sincerity is much more important than the actual completion of an action.

Quote:
((The intention of the believer is better than his action)) – This has been said by more than one person, and some of them raise it, so the clarification of this is from a number of angles:

Firstly: that the mere intention by itself without action is rewarded for, whilst action without intention is not rewarded for
FatwaIslam.Com : The saying 'the intention of the believer is better than his action'
Competition is an impossibility because we do not know the intent in another person's heart. We can not use the actions of other Muslims as the standard for how we perform Islam
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-12-2016, 03:16 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,600,780 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You misunderstand once more.

"They" mentioned in the verse 3:114 are neither the mu'mineen of the Qur'an nor the Muslims of the Qur'an. "They" are "The followers of the Book", the followers of the earlier revelations before the revelation of the Qur'an.
They are not related to the present Quran [Muhammad].

But in reference to they are nevertheless followers of the Book, i.e. the original revelation of Allah which is deemed to the Quran-of-old. As followers of the Quran of old, they are also Muslims [loose].
As with the principles of the Quran [Muhammad] they would be mu'min [strict] if they had progressed sufficient with the pillars of eeman in the Quran-of-old.

Allah had stated the Quran-of-old is at least same [in core principles] as the latest Quran which confirm the older-Quran.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-12-2016, 03:24 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,600,780 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Also are to not judge and assume the other person is doing to the best of their abilities.

Competition among Muslims regarding our performance of Islam is an impossibility as we do not compare our actions with each other. We assume every Muslim is doing the best their abilities allow and that is all any of us can do. What my Brothers and Sister do does not set the standard for me, that is set by my own abilities and if I am doing all I am capable of. Sincerity is much more important than the actual completion of an action.

Competition is an impossibility because we do not know the intent in another person's heart. We can not use the actions of other Muslims as the standard for how we perform Islam
In general I agree the majority of Muslims do not deliberately compete with one another.

However there are obvious a percentile of Muslims who are very zealous who would interpret those verses which has indication of vie, race to be better or more Muslims that others.

This is a very common where those wearing hijab, growing beard, reading Quran daily, praying 5 times a day, acting in a certain Islamic way will condemn those who are not and are different from them.

My suggestion is you need to pause and think a bit of what is happening in reality and the world [Islamic] before settling on a view.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-12-2016, 03:54 AM
 
3,187 posts, read 1,054,232 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
They are not related to the present Quran [Muhammad].

But in reference to they are nevertheless followers of the Book, i.e. the original revelation of Allah which is deemed to the Quran-of-old. As followers of the Quran of old, they are also Muslims [loose].
As with the principles of the Quran [Muhammad] they would be mu'min [strict] if they had progressed sufficient with the pillars of eeman in the Quran-of-old.
This verifies 2 things:

1. Any vying in the verse is not between Muslims but the Jews.

2. The mu'mineen in 26:51 are mu'mineen for just one simple fact; they believed in the Message from Allah, through the messenger Moses to Pharoah. Thus a person is mu'min the moment s/he believes the message from God. This is termed having eeman. This is done before him doing any submitting.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2016, 01:59 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,600,780 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This verifies 2 things:

1. Any vying in the verse is not between Muslims but the Jews.
The vying is this verse refer to the Jews but actually it refers to the Jews-of-old who were Muslims-of-old [belief in Allah and the Quran of old] but the principle is generally applicable to all Muslim-in-general.

There are many such verses, note this 2:148;
2:148. And each one [Muslim] hath a goal toward which he turneth; so vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever ye [Muslim] may be, Allah will bring you all together. [on J-DAY] Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
Quote:
2. The mu'mineen in 26:51 are mu'mineen for just one simple fact; they believed in the Message from Allah, through the messenger Moses to Pharoah. Thus a person is mu'min the moment s/he believes the message from God. This is termed having eeman. This is done before him doing any submitting.
I do agree 'believe' at times precede submit but your rejection of the concept of strict and loose sense for the word 'believe' led you astray.

Note the root word 'believe' appeared 1,256 times in 973 verses in the Quran [Pickthall].
I suggest you read all of them [I have] and you will note these 1,256 times are used in the various contexts and within the strict & loose sense.

In 26:51 the term 'believe' [mu'min] is used in the loose sense.
This is like men-in-general with one address 'Ladies and gentlemen ..' which refer to gentlemen in the loose sense and not the strict sense.
You keep denying the concept of strict and loose sense and thus misinterpret Allah's message in this case.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2016, 05:48 PM
 
3,187 posts, read 1,054,232 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The vying is this verse refer to the Jews but actually it refers to the Jews-of-old who were Muslims-of-old [belief in Allah and the Quran of old] but the principle is generally applicable to all Muslim-in-general.
No. You are not going to wriggle out of this one!

In the verse, the Jews mentioned as people of the book are not Jews of old but those present during the revelation of the Qur'an who had not believed the Qur'an but were still doing good works commanded in the Torah (not the Qur'an of old).

Quote:
There are many such verses, note this 2:148;
2:148. And each one [Muslim] hath a goal toward which he turneth; so vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever ye [Muslim] may be, Allah will bring you all together. [on J-DAY] Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
I can see that you have used here Pickthall translation and then modified the Pickthall translation to try to create different meanings. That is not a clever thing to do. The first [Muslim] is from a corrupt translator. It is not about each Muslim but about each religious community, including Jews and Christians. Any vying in this verse is hasting to good deeds in relation to the other community mentioned in the context.

You said, "many" more verses like this. Let's have a "few" more!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top