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Old 04-14-2016, 01:23 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. You are not going to wriggle out of this one!
In the verse, the Jews mentioned as people of the book are not Jews of old but those present during the revelation of the Qur'an who had not believed the Qur'an but were still doing good works commanded in the Torah (not the Qur'an of old).
OK, my focus was on 'vie with one another' and I got off point on who were referred to. I looked at my notes and the people were actually the staunch Christians, most likely monks.

Quote:
I can see that you have used here Pickthall translation and then modified the Pickthall translation to try to create different meanings. That is not a clever thing to do. The first [Muslim] is from a corrupt translator. It is not about each Muslim but about each religious community, including Jews and Christians. Any vying in this verse is hasting to good deeds in relation to the other community mentioned in the context.

You said, "many" more verses like this. Let's have a "few" more!
I did not modify the Pickthall. What I put in [] are merely notes to facilitate reading and understanding and if wrong I will change them.

Btw, Asad also used the term "vie with one another" as I challenged Woodrow in another post.

Here are the others;
5:48 [Part] ... Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

21:90 Then We heard his prayer, and bestowed upon him John, and adjusted his wife (to bear a child) for him. Lo! they used to vie one with the other in good deeds, and they cried unto Us in longing and in fear, and were submissive unto Us.

3:133 And vie one with another for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a paradise as wide as are the heavens and the earth, prepared for those who ward off (evil);

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Old 04-14-2016, 02:02 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here are more verses that reflect a sense of competition:

3:200. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Endure, outdo all others in endurance, be ready, and observe your duty to Allah, in order that ye [Muslims] may succeed.

67:2. Who hath created life and death that He may try you, which of you is best in conduct; and He is the Mighty, Forgiving,

49:13. O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.
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Old 04-14-2016, 03:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here are the others;
5:48 [Part] ... Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

21:90 Then We heard his prayer, and bestowed upon him John, and adjusted his wife (to bear a child) for him. Lo! they used to vie one with the other in good deeds, and they cried unto Us in longing and in fear, and were submissive unto Us.

3:133 And vie one with another for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a paradise as wide as are the heavens and the earth, prepared for those who ward off (evil);

5:48 is not about vying in a competition between Muslims but test for each diferent religious communities in excelling/striving in doing good deed.

21:90 is not about vying betweem Muslims but hastening to good deeds of a community in which John the Baptist (Yaya) was born. His parents used to hasten in doing good works. The Arabic word in the verse is "yusariauoon" ("hasten") rather than vie.

3:133 is not about vying but once more about hastening, being quick/rush, to ask for forgiveness. Both Pickthall and Asad have translated it "vie". I don't believe they realized that they are giving impression of competition when using the word "vie". I don't believe that they meant it to be some kind of competition but merely rushing, to be fast to ask for forgiveness.

I have yet to come across any verse in which I am to vie as if in a competition with someone else in doing good works. How can one vie (as if in a competition) with another Muslim when I one doesn't even know how fast the others are in doing good works or in asking for forgiveness?
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Old 04-14-2016, 04:21 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,044,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here are more verses that reflect a sense of competition:

3:200. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Endure, outdo all others in endurance, be ready, and observe your duty to Allah, in order that ye [Muslims] may succeed.
The verse begins with "O ye who believe" rather than "O ye who submit".

The only sense of competition in the verse is one's with one's self in patience in difficult times. There is reward for having patience but no reward in winning any competition about being the most patient. How will I know that I did outdo all others (who are unknown to me)?

Quote:
67:2. Who hath created life and death that He may try you, which of you is best in conduct; and He is the Mighty, Forgiving,
There is nothing about any competition between Muslims in this verse. If anything, the verse is about reason for creation of mankind and conduct of each person.

Quote:
49:13. O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.
Yes, this sounds like a competition between mankind and whoever wins gets the cup. It looks like only one will be in heaven; the noblest one. But then again, I will never know when I win this competition because I have no idea where I am in the race or when, if ever, I win the race/competition. Even if it is a test., it is test for everyone in the mankind, and not just between Muslims..
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Old 04-14-2016, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here are more verses that reflect a sense of competition:

3:200. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Endure, outdo all others in endurance, be ready, and observe your duty to Allah, in order that ye [Muslims] may succeed.

67:2. Who hath created life and death that He may try you, which of you is best in conduct; and He is the Mighty, Forgiving,

49:13. O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.
3:199 is definetly not refering toMuslims.And, behold, among the followers of earlier revelation there are indeed such as [truly] believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon you as well as in that which has been bestowed upon them. Standing in awe of God, they do not barter away God's messages for a trifling gain. They shall have their reward with their Sustainer - for, behold, God is swift in reckoning! - 3:199 (Asad)

And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah. They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account. - 3:199 (Y. Ali)

And Lo! of the People of the Scripture there are some who believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto you and that which was revealed unto them, humbling themselves before Allah. They purchase not a trifling gain at the price of the revelations of Allah. Verily their reward is with their Lord, and Lo! Allah is swift to take account. - 3:199 (Picktall)
All ayyat directly relate to the ayyats immediatly before and after it. 3: 200 is an extension of the content in 3: 199

O you who have attained to faith! Be patient in adversity, and vie in patience with one another, and be ever ready [to do what is right], and remain conscious of God, so that you might attain to a happy state! - 3:200 (Asad)

O ye who believe! Persevere in patience and constancy; vie in such perseverance; strengthen each other; and fear Allah. that ye may prosper. - 3:200 (Y. Ali)

O ye who believe! Endure, outdo all others in endurance, be ready, and observe your duty to Allah, in order that ye may succeed. - 3:200 (Picktall)

The [Muslims] is a misunderstanding as yhe ayyats are speaking of "People of the Book" not Muslims.

67:2

While we do not know exactly when this Surah was revealed it is quite certain i is one of the earliest Meccan ones. Meaning the Audience being addressed was not Muslim,but were non-Muslims being told of Allaah(swt)

49:13 is referring to all people.
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Old 04-15-2016, 12:37 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The verse begins with "O ye who believe" rather than "O ye who submit".
The only sense of competition in the verse is one's with one's self in patience in difficult times. There is reward for having patience but no reward in winning any competition about being the most patient. How will I know that I did outdo all others (who are unknown to me)?
Denial of a sense of competition is insulting your own intelligence.
3:200. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Endure, outdo all others in endurance, be ready, and observe your duty to Allah, in order that ye [Muslims] may succeed.
It is so obvious "outdo all others" imply a sense of competition to compete within Muslims who are within the individual's sight and knowledge.
This sense of completion may be in the friendly sense or in a more serious sense but not like in a sport race.

Quote:
There is nothing about any competition between Muslims in this verse. If anything, the verse is about reason for creation of mankind and conduct of each person.
This is not competing in the strict sense but merely in the general sense.
'Best in conduct' imply better in conduct and to do this one has to generate a sense of comparison with others.
Not all Muslims will be influenced by this command to compete, but if 20% do, that is 300 million Muslims around the world. Some humans are naturally competitive.

Quote:
Yes, this sounds like a competition between mankind and whoever wins gets the cup. It looks like only one will be in heaven; the noblest one. But then again, I will never know when I win this competition because I have no idea where I am in the race or when, if ever, I win the race/competition. Even if it is a test., it is test for everyone in the mankind, and not just between Muslims..
As I had said not all Muslims will generate a sense of competition.
But with such a verse [together] with other similar verses from Allah, SOME competitive, insecure, with low self-esteem, Muslims will be influenced to compete with the next guy or with another group primarily to please Allah and to ensure their more certain journey to Paradise.
Some Muslims may feel proud over their sense of competitiveness when inspired from these verses but pride is a sin which is not Allah's intention.

Objectively I see it in a more realistic perspective i.e.
All this nudging of Muslims to compete was actually for the authors [Muhammad or a group of people] personal interests. The more they compete the more the authors will gain via the followers loyalty and diligence. At present this is abused by some political leaders.
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Old 04-15-2016, 01:11 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
3:199 is definetly not refering toMuslims.And, behold, among the followers of earlier revelation there are indeed such as [truly] believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon you as well as in that which has been bestowed upon them. Standing in awe of God, they do not barter away God's messages for a trifling gain. They shall have their reward with their Sustainer - for, behold, God is swift in reckoning! - 3:199 (Asad)

And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah. They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account. - 3:199 (Y. Ali)

And Lo! of the People of the Scripture there are some who believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto you and that which was revealed unto them, humbling themselves before Allah. They purchase not a trifling gain at the price of the revelations of Allah. Verily their reward is with their Lord, and Lo! Allah is swift to take account. - 3:199 (Picktall)
All ayyat directly relate to the ayyats immediatly before and after it. 3: 200 is an extension of the content in 3: 199

O you who have attained to faith! Be patient in adversity, and vie in patience with one another, and be ever ready [to do what is right], and remain conscious of God, so that you might attain to a happy state! - 3:200 (Asad)

O ye who believe! Persevere in patience and constancy; vie in such perseverance; strengthen each other; and fear Allah. that ye may prosper. - 3:200 (Y. Ali)

O ye who believe! Endure, outdo all others in endurance, be ready, and observe your duty to Allah, in order that ye may succeed. - 3:200 (Picktall)

The [Muslims] is a misunderstanding as yhe ayyats are speaking of "People of the Book" not Muslims.

67:2

While we do not know exactly when this Surah was revealed it is quite certain i is one of the earliest Meccan ones. Meaning the Audience being addressed was not Muslim,but were non-Muslims being told of Allaah(swt)

49:13 is referring to all people.
You are reading too much into 3:200 in this case.

3:199 referred specifically to a group from the People of the Book and mentioning their good qualities and they are Muslims-of-old in accordance with their revealed revelations [not related to Muhammad].

3:200 is a general statement to all Muslims regardless of whether they are Muslims-of-old or Muslims-of-new.

Let me put it this way;
O ye [Muslims] who believe! Endure, outdo all others in endurance, be ready, and observe your [Muslims'] duty to Allah, in order that ye [Muslims] may succeed. - 3:200 (Picktall)
Point here 'observe your duty to Allah' definitely refer to Muslims in general.

Besides what is point of exhorting only those Muslims-of-old to outdo all others in endurance so only them will succeed.

It would be more meaningful to exhort all Muslims in general regardless of when to outdo, i.e. perform better than others.
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Old 04-15-2016, 01:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Denial of a sense of competition is insulting your own intelligence.
3:200. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Endure, outdo all others in endurance, be ready, and observe your duty to Allah, in order that ye [Muslims] may succeed.
It is so obvious "outdo all others" imply a sense of competition to compete within Muslims who are within the individual's sight and knowledge.
This sense of completion may be in the friendly sense or in a more serious sense but not like in a sport race.
It is crystal clear to me that your understanding of this verse is very limited.

The verse is addressed to believers (O ye who have eeman = O you who have eeman in the Qur'an). This is the last verse of the chapter 3 Al-i-Imran. I have checked each Arabic word in this verse. There is absolutly no sense of competiion in it between Muslims. I can even translate each word for you if you do not believe (secular loose term) me. There is nothing in the verse that can even remotely be translated as "outdo all others" as Pickthall has translated. These words and word like "vie" included by a few other translators in this verse simply aren't in this verse in the Arabic Qur'an. So, sorry to disappoint you matey but my "denial" is well informed by my intellignce and understanding of the Arabic Qur'an.

Quote:
This is not competing in the strict sense but merely in the general sense.
'Best in conduct' imply better in conduct and to do this one has to generate a sense of comparison with others.
Not all Muslims will be influenced by this command to compete, but if 20% do, that is 300 million Muslims around the world. Some humans are naturally competitive.
"Best in conduct" is neither in a competitive sense nor in a literal sense for two reasons:

1. No Muslim can compete with other Muslims in conduct because none of us know the level of conduct of all other Muslims. Therefore competitive sense is out.

2. As for literal sense, "the best in conduct" has to be one of "the foremost the foremost" (56:10). As most of the Muslims are not going to be of "the foremost the foremost", "the best in conduct" is also not in competitive sense.

Quote:
As I had said not all Muslims will generate a sense of competition.
It is not a matter of "generate a sense of compeition" but understanding the verse properly. Reading all the verses of the Qur'an, I have never ever felt that, as a Muslim, I am in any competition with any other Muslim.

Quote:
But with such a verse [together] with other similar verses from Allah, SOME competitive, insecure, with low self-esteem, Muslims will be influenced to compete with the next guy or with another group primarily to please Allah and to ensure their more certain journey to Paradise.
I do not know of any other Muslim who thinks that way but I am somewhat glad that you are not a Muslim or else you might be influenced to outdo even Bin Laden.

Quote:
Some Muslims may feel proud over their sense of competitiveness when inspired from these verses but pride is a sin which is not Allah's intention.
That's why, in reality, there is no competiion in the Qur'an between Muslims!

Quote:
Objectively I see it in a more realistic perspective i.e.
All this nudging of Muslims to compete was actually for the authors [Muhammad or a group of people] personal interests. The more they compete the more the authors will gain via the followers loyalty and diligence. At present this is abused by some political leaders.
That is even worse suggestion and looking from an unrealistic perspective!
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Old 04-16-2016, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is crystal clear to me that your understanding of this verse is very limited.

The verse is addressed to believers (O ye who have eeman = O you who have eeman in the Qur'an). This is the last verse of the chapter 3 Al-i-Imran. I have checked each Arabic word in this verse. There is absolutly no sense of competiion in it between Muslims. I can even translate each word for you if you do not believe (secular loose term) me. There is nothing in the verse that can even remotely be translated as "outdo all others" as Pickthall has translated. These words and word like "vie" included by a few other translators in this verse simply aren't in this verse in the Arabic Qur'an. So, sorry to disappoint you matey but my "denial" is well informed by my intellignce and understanding of the Arabic Qur'an.

"Best in conduct" is neither in a competitive sense nor in a literal sense for two reasons:

1. No Muslim can compete with other Muslims in conduct because none of us know the level of conduct of all other Muslims. Therefore competitive sense is out.

2. As for literal sense, "the best in conduct" has to be one of "the foremost the foremost" (56:10). As most of the Muslims are not going to be of "the foremost the foremost", "the best in conduct" is also not in competitive sense.

It is not a matter of "generate a sense of compeition" but understanding the verse properly. Reading all the verses of the Qur'an, I have never ever felt that, as a Muslim, I am in any competition with any other Muslim.

I do not know of any other Muslim who thinks that way but I am somewhat glad that you are not a Muslim or else you might be influenced to outdo even Bin Laden.

That's why, in reality, there is no competiion in the Qur'an between Muslims!

That is even worse suggestion and looking from an unrealistic perspective!
As far as 3:200 there are many translators who present in a competitive mode, and note your favored Asad as well.
Are you condemning Asad in this case?
You stance on Asad's credibility is at stake here re 49:17.
Asad
O you who have attained to faith! Be patient in adversity, and vie in patience with one another, and be ever ready [to do what is right], and remain conscious of God, so that you might attain to a happy state!

M. M. Pickthall
O ye who believe! Endure, outdo all others in endurance, be ready, and observe your duty to Allah, in order that ye may succeed.

Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli
O' you who have faith! do persevere and outdo (all others) in endurance, and be ready (to guard the bounds) , and be in awe of Allah that you may be prosperous.

Hamid S. Aziz
O you who believe! Endure and vie with one another in endurance, and be on the alert, and fear Allah, in order that you may succeed.

Shabbir Ahmed
O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Be patient in adversity, outdo others in endurance, and remain united strengthening the bond of mutual brotherhood. Be mindful of your duty to Allah and be assured that your efforts will bear fruit.

Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
O you who believe, persevere in patience and constancy, compete in such perseverance, strengthen each other, and be conscious of God, so that you may flourish.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira
You, you those who believed, be patient, and compete in patience, and stand firmly on guard/steadfast, and fear and obey God, maybe/perhaps you succeed/win.

Arthur John Arberry
O believers, be patient, and vie you in patience; be steadfast; fear God; haply so you will prosper.

Edward Henry Palmer
O ye who believe! be patient and vie in being patient, and be on the alert, and fear God, that haply ye may prosper.

Ahmed Hulusi
O believers... Endure (the hardships you encounter) and vie in patience with one another, be prepared for and in unity against the enemy and protect yourselves from Allah, so you may attain emancipation.
There are about 10 English translators who translate and reflect the 'competitive' mode.
The others translate in various meanings.

Btw, I have stated 'competition' do not mean fierce completion that results in the manifestation of pride amongst Muslims. It is not like the Quran reading competition with first prize winners etc. There is no direct comparisons of results but the gist here is to compete to please god.

You may not have a sense of competition but you cannot deny SOME Muslims do have a sense of competition.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-16-2016 at 12:44 AM..
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Old 04-16-2016, 05:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As far as 3:200 there are many translators who present in a competitive mode, and note your favored Asad as well.
Are you condemning Asad in this case?
You stance on Asad's credibility is at stake here re 49:17.
Many translators present 3:200 in a competitive mode and many translators do not present 3:200 in competitive mode. The latter ones are correct.

As for Asad, he is correct in case of 49:14 and 49:17 but not in case of 3:200. It is the same with all the other translators. In many cases they are correct and incorrect in other cases. You won't find any one who is always correct word by word from beginning to the end of the Qur'an.

Your favourite seems to be Pickthall. I have a complete translation of Pickthall in book form in my home library. He has translated "outdo all others". Even this is nothing to do with any kind of competition between Muslims. The verse is quite clearly addressed to the "those who believe". The "all others" are all others than "those who believe". Therefore, by adding "outdo all others", he means those "who do not believe". It simply mean outdo the unbelievers in being steadfast (in patience or endurance).

You need to steady these verses rather han merly read them and jump to conclusions as your fancy take you. In my case, I can refer these translated verses to the Arabic Qur'an and get to the heart of the meanings. I have some sympathy for you in this case because you can't do what I can do in understanding the Qur'an.

Quote:
Asad
O you who have attained to faith! Be patient in adversity, and vie in patience with one another, and be ever ready [to do what is right], and remain conscious of God, so that you might attain to a happy state!

M. M. Pickthall
O ye who believe! Endure, outdo all others in endurance, be ready, and observe your duty to Allah, in order that ye may succeed.

Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli
O' you who have faith! do persevere and outdo (all others) in endurance, and be ready (to guard the bounds) , and be in awe of Allah that you may be prosperous.

Hamid S. Aziz
O you who believe! Endure and vie with one another in endurance, and be on the alert, and fear Allah, in order that you may succeed.

Shabbir Ahmed
O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Be patient in adversity, outdo others in endurance, and remain united strengthening the bond of mutual brotherhood. Be mindful of your duty to Allah and be assured that your efforts will bear fruit.

Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
O you who believe, persevere in patience and constancy, compete in such perseverance, strengthen each other, and be conscious of God, so that you may flourish.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira
You, you those who believed, be patient, and compete in patience, and stand firmly on guard/steadfast, and fear and obey God, maybe/perhaps you succeed/win.

Arthur John Arberry
O believers, be patient, and vie you in patience; be steadfast; fear God; haply so you will prosper.

Edward Henry Palmer
O ye who believe! be patient and vie in being patient, and be on the alert, and fear God, that haply ye may prosper.

Ahmed Hulusi
O believers... Endure (the hardships you encounter) and vie in patience with one another, be prepared for and in unity against the enemy and protect yourselves from Allah, so you may attain emancipation.
There are about 10 English translators who translate and reflect the 'competitive' mode.
The others translate in various meanings.

Btw, I have stated 'competition' do not mean fierce completion that results in the manifestation of pride amongst Muslims. It is not like the Quran reading competition with first prize winners etc. There is no direct comparisons of results but the gist here is to compete to please god.
I can see that you have chosen to quote the translations with competitive Impression. I can quote those with no competitive impression. I can go further and tell you, as I have done before, that the there is no word in 3:200 that should be translated as "vie" or "outdo others" or "outdo all others". The Arabic word in this verse is "as-biru" which means "be steadfast". It does not mean vie or outdo all others. Being steadfast in patience is being firm in patience and never have doubt or lose it under trying conditions.

That's all there is to this verse regardless of how anyone else translates it. If you still do not believe (secular loose term) me, I can translate this verse word by word for your knowledge. It's not a problem for me.
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