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Old 06-10-2016, 09:51 AM
 
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Isn't it possible for a Muslim to believe and submit to allah, but hate allah? I ran across a case like that....someone who believed there was an allah and submitted to this allah out of fear (had a childhood of threats about what punishments allah does). But this person totally hated what allah was about (the threats and hate and all that). Allah became the monster under the bed.

Submission often brings hate. Slaves hate their masters. And in Islam the submission is not really voluntary as there is the threat of never ending torture if you do not submit.

When I think of 'submitters' I think of worms,,,,crawling along without the confidence and self esteem to think for themselves, make their own decision, live their own life according to their independent value judgements. Or I think of people oppressed under the boot of some ideology like communism. Submission is ugly. It reeks of slavery and power mongering and violence and disrespect and hate of independence.

The vilest form of self-abasement and self-destruction is the subordination of your mind to the mind of another, be it man or the supernatural.

How many Muslims believe in and submit to allah ... and resent and hate allah? Any Muslim who has a speck of self-worth and independent spirit.
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Old 06-10-2016, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Isn't it possible for a Muslim to believe and submit to allah, but hate allah? I ran across a case like that....someone who believed there was an allah and submitted to this allah out of fear (had a childhood of threats about what punishments allah does). But this person totally hated what allah was about (the threats and hate and all that). Allah became the monster under the bed.

Submission often brings hate. Slaves hate their masters. And in Islam the submission is not really voluntary as there is the threat of never ending torture if you do not submit.

When I think of 'submitters' I think of worms,,,,crawling along without the confidence and self esteem to think for themselves, make their own decision, live their own life according to their independent value judgements. Or I think of people oppressed under the boot of some ideology like communism. Submission is ugly. It reeks of slavery and power mongering and violence and disrespect and hate of independence.

The vilest form of self-abasement and self-destruction is the subordination of your mind to the mind of another, be it man or the supernatural.

How many Muslims believe in and submit to allah ... and resent and hate allah? Any Muslim who has a speck of self-worth and independent spirit.
Had not thought from that perspective. That would be possible for some percentile of Muslims.
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Old 06-11-2016, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Isn't it possible for a Muslim to believe and submit to allah, but hate allah? I ran across a case like that....someone who believed there was an allah and submitted to this allah out of fear (had a childhood of threats about what punishments allah does). But this person totally hated what allah was about (the threats and hate and all that). Allah became the monster under the bed.

Submission often brings hate. Slaves hate their masters. And in Islam the submission is not really voluntary as there is the threat of never ending torture if you do not submit.

When I think of 'submitters' I think of worms,,,,crawling along without the confidence and self esteem to think for themselves, make their own decision, live their own life according to their independent value judgements. Or I think of people oppressed under the boot of some ideology like communism. Submission is ugly. It reeks of slavery and power mongering and violence and disrespect and hate of independence.

The vilest form of self-abasement and self-destruction is the subordination of your mind to the mind of another, be it man or the supernatural.

How many Muslims believe in and submit to allah ... and resent and hate allah? Any Muslim who has a speck of self-worth and independent spirit.
Can only speak for myself. I do not see Allaah(swt) as being like you believe he is. I find Him to be all Kind and loving. Very protective and carrying.


I do not see the warnings of Hell as being any more of a threat as warnings about falling off a cliff if one is engaging in Mountain climbing.

The things Allaah(swt) asks of me to do are things I did already as a decent human being while I was an Atheist. the only addition is the opportunity to worship Allaah(swt) in the manner most fitting to do.

If a person is living a life of high moral standard with a desire to do good to others, to treat all people decently and with dignity, to love all people as brothers and sisters, to preserve the environment and to treat all living creature with kindness, then the person is already obeying most of what Allaah(swt) commands of us.
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Old 06-11-2016, 11:42 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,510 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Can only speak for myself. I do not see Allaah(swt) as being like you believe he is. I find Him to be all Kind and loving. Very protective and carrying.


I do not see the warnings of Hell as being any more of a threat as warnings about falling off a cliff if one is engaging in Mountain climbing.

The things Allaah(swt) asks of me to do are things I did already as a decent human being while I was an Atheist. the only addition is the opportunity to worship Allaah(swt) in the manner most fitting to do.

If a person is living a life of high moral standard with a desire to do good to others, to treat all people decently and with dignity, to love all people as brothers and sisters, to preserve the environment and to treat all living creature with kindness, then the person is already obeying most of what Allaah(swt) commands of us.
Hogwash! I have posted verse after verse from the quran where allah talks about his hate and plans for torture of UNBELIEVERS/DISBELIEVERS. THAT is the sin in allah's eyes.

The mountain has no plans to endlessly torture the mountain climber if the mountain climber falls.

The context that you drop is that allah plans and carries out torture on people who do not submit to him.

The comparison is a mafia hit man saying pay protection money or they will slaughter you and your family after horrific torture.
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Old 06-11-2016, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Hogwash! I have posted verse after verse from the quran where allah talks about his hate and plans for torture of UNBELIEVERS/DISBELIEVERS. THAT is the sin in allah's eyes.

The mountain has no plans to endlessly torture the mountain climber if the mountain climber falls.

The context that you drop is that allah plans and carries out torture on people who do not submit to him.

The comparison is a mafia hit man saying pay protection money or they will slaughter you and your family after horrific torture.
I believe you have posted erroneous misconceptions

but, your opinion is as valid as mine. We each can do not more than believe or disbelieve what we our self have studied and verified.
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Old 06-11-2016, 04:33 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,510 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I believe you have posted erroneous misconceptions

but, your opinion is as valid as mine. We each can do not more than believe or disbelieve what we our self have studied and verified.
Do you think mountains have consciousness and plot to kill mountain climbers? If that is your opinion it has no validity to it at all. If a mountain has consciousness is not a matter of opinion.

And if you think this is good, your code of ethics holds death as it's fundamental value:

Terrorism:

Quran 3:151 We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers.

Quran 8:12 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

Quran 8:60 And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.

Quran 27:87 And on the day when the trumpet shall be blown, then those who are in the heavens and those who are in the earth shall be terrified except such as Allah please, and all shall come to him abased.

Quran 33:26 And those of the people of the Scripture who backed them (the disbelievers) Allah brought them down from their forts and cast terror into their hearts, (so that) a group (of them) you killed, and a group (of them) you made captives.

Quran 34:51 If thou couldst but see when they will quake with terror; but then there will be no escape (for them), and they will be seized from a position (quite) near.

Quran 59:13 Of a truth ye are stronger (than they) because of the terror in their hearts, (sent) by Allah. This is because they are men devoid of understanding.

Torture

Quran 8:50 And if you could see when the angels take away the souls of those who disbelieve (at death), they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the punishment of the blazing Fire."

Quran 4:38 Cut off (from the wrist joint) the (right) hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. And Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise.

Quran 4:56 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Quran 79:25 Then Allah took him (away) with the torture of the Hereafter and the First (life).

The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433) (I think mass rape of women and girls after slaughtering their husbands, fathers and sons is torture, don't you??)

Quran 8:12 Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

Quran (24:2) The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you.

Quran 22:19-22 "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."

Muslim (16:4131) - They were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died.

Ibn Ishaq 764 - After amassing a powerful army, Muhammad sent his forces to take the peaceful farming community of Khaybar by surprise. In the aftermath, he was dissatisfied with the amount of plunder and felt that the town’s treasurer, Kinana, might be holding out on him. He had the man brought to him:
When he [Muhammad] asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr bin al-Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has.” So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad bin Maslama and he struck off his head.”

Rape:

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

Allah seemed to like to watch mass rape.

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)

Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88)

I don't think 4th grade girls want 53 year old men to have sex with them. Would you agree?

Slavery

There came a slave and pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) on migration; he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man) (Sahih Muslim 3901).

The apostle gave Ali a girl called Rayta; and he gave Uthman a girl called Zaynab; and he gave Umar a girl whom Umar gave to his son Abdullah. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 878) Human party favors!!

“Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty.” (Qur’an 33:50)

“Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah’s Apostle was on a journey and he had a black slave called Anjasha, and he was driving the camels (very fast, and there were women riding on those camels). Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Waihaka (May Allah be merciful to you), O Anjasha! Drive slowly (the camels) with the glass vessels (women)!'” (Bukhari 8.73.182) There is no mention of Muhammad’s freeing Anjasha.

BUKHARI Vol. 3-#765
Narrated Kuraib: the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, "Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles."

Hate

Quran 2:65 And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!

Quran 7:166 Therefore when they revoltingly persisted in what they had been forbidden, We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.

Quran 28:42 in this world We made a curse to follow them and on the Day of Judgment they will be among the loathed (and despised).

Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.
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Old 06-11-2016, 08:34 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The comparison is a mafia hit man saying pay protection money or they will slaughter you and your family after horrific torture.
This is comparison in ignorance!

Allah does not demand money from you. He does not need your money that you love so much.

[35.15] O human beings! You are they who stand in need of Allah, and Allah is He Who is the Self-sufficient, the Praised One.
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Old 06-11-2016, 09:19 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,510 times
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is comparison in ignorance!

Allah does not demand money from you. He does not need your money that you love so much.

[35.15] O human beings! You are they who stand in need of Allah, and Allah is He Who is the Self-sufficient, the Praised One.
Yes, you have a point. Allah demands far more than money. He demands your slavery to him. Your life.

And about this this money that I love so much...and you are right, I do love money. Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. I love that. I love production and trade and the tool that makes it possible. The alternative is slavery, guns, fortunes-by-conquest like your stinking Muhammed pulled. Do you really think throwing my love of money at me is an insult? It is a great compliment.
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Old 06-12-2016, 02:50 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is comparison in ignorance!

Allah does not demand money from you. He does not need your money that you love so much.

[35.15] O human beings! You are they who stand in need of Allah, and Allah is He Who is the Self-sufficient, the Praised One.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Yes, you have a point. Allah demands far more than money. He demands your slavery to him. Your life.
Then you too are Allah's slave; He gave you life and He will take it from you that He gave you. As a slave, you will have to finally submit to Him with life. You will have no choice but to yield in the end.

[19.93] There is no one in the heavens and the earth but will come to the Beneficent God as a slave.

Quote:
And about this this money that I love so much...and you are right, I do love money.
You love something that you will give up in the end as a slave without choice.

Quote:
Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them.I love that.
None of the goods produced by men are going to last. You love something that is not going to last.

[28.60] And whatever things you have been given are only a provision of this world's life and its adornment, and whatever is with Allah is better and more lasting; do you not then understand?

[87.16] Nay! You prefer the life of this world,

[87.17] While the hereafter is better and more lasting.


Quote:
I love production and trade and the tool that makes it possible. The alternative is slavery, guns, fortunes-by-conquest like your stinking Muhammed pulled.
I can see a lot of stinking men today producing guns, bombs, WMDs and dropping them on human beings in the interest of trade, money and monetary national interests. In the end, all will have to give it all up like slaves to the "mafia hit man".

Quote:
Do you really think throwing my love of money at me is an insult? It is a great compliment.
The "mafia hit man" is going to take that assumed "compliment" away from you in the end, and you will yield as a slave. willingly or unwillingly.
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Old 06-12-2016, 08:36 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,510 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Then you too are Allah's slave; He gave you life and He will take it from you that He gave you. As a slave, you will have to finally submit to Him with life. You will have no choice but to yield in the end.

[19.93] There is no one in the heavens and the earth but will come to the Beneficent God as a slave.

You love something that you will give up in the end as a slave without choice.

None of the goods produced by men are going to last. You love something that is not going to last.

[28.60] And whatever things you have been given are only a provision of this world's life and its adornment, and whatever is with Allah is better and more lasting; do you not then understand?

[87.16] Nay! You prefer the life of this world,

[87.17] While the hereafter is better and more lasting.


I can see a lot of stinking men today producing guns, bombs, WMDs and dropping them on human beings in the interest of trade, money and monetary national interests. In the end, all will have to give it all up like slaves to the "mafia hit man".

The "mafia hit man" is going to take that assumed "compliment" away from you in the end, and you will yield as a slave. willingly or unwillingly.
There is no allah.

You promote death. It is the products of men's minds and efforts that keep us alive. Why do you eat? Or use a computer? Or wear clothes? You use all these things while diminishing them. Why? They won't last, so what good are they? If death is so great, die already. The hereafter is better and more lasting, according to you. Go there.

You spew this nonsense while acting in accord with reality and striving to gain all that you say is not going to last.... to avoid going to your great place of death!! In truth, you prefer the life of this world while praising death so allah will like you.
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