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Old 08-07-2015, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The "Seal" is of their own choice. It is the granting of what they desired. Not all disbelievers are by choice. Those that are disbelievers because they never had the opportunity to learn of Allaah(swt) will be jusged only in accordance with that which they had to opportunity to learn.

Disbelief through genuine ignorance (ie that which we have not had the opportunity to learn) is not something one will be punished for. But all the Scriptures that came through the Prophets have warned those who disbelieve by choice.
Allah did warn in certain circumstances.

However in other situations, it is stated in the Quran [many times], Allah abused his omnipotent power to deliberately lead the infidels astray. Then he sanction Muslims [SOME take it] to commit violence and evil on non-Muslim [infidels, Kafir, Kuffar] and punished them in this world and in hell in the most cruel and violent manner. Example, note [mine]

6:111. And though We should send down the angels unto them [infidels], and the dead should speak unto them, and We should gather against them all things in array, they [infidels] would not believe unless Allah so willed. How be it, most of them [infidels] are ignorant.
The above imply, it is up to Allah discretion whether one is a believer or not. If Allah is omnipotent and if he is compassionate, then he should straight away prevent whomsoever from becoming astray.
6:125. And whomsoever it is Allah's will to guide, He expandeth his bosom unto the Surrender, and whomsoever [infidel] it is His will to send astray, He maketh his [infidel's] bosom close and narrow as if he were engaged in sheer ascent. Thus Allah layeth ignominy [disgrace] upon those [infidels] who believe not.

178. He [a Muslim] who Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he [an infidel] whom Allah sendeth astray they [infidels] indeed are losers.
There are many other verses where Allah deliberately caused whomsoever to be astray.
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Allah did warn in certain circumstances.

However in other situations, it is stated in the Quran [many times], Allah abused his omnipotent power to deliberately lead the infidels astray. Then he sanction Muslims [SOME take it] to commit violence and evil on non-Muslim [infidels, Kafir, Kuffar] and punished them in this world and in hell in the most cruel and violent manner. Example, note [mine]

6:111. And though We should send down the angels unto them [infidels], and the dead should speak unto them, and We should gather against them all things in array, they [infidels] would not believe unless Allah so willed. How be it, most of them [infidels] are ignorant.
The above imply, it is up to Allah discretion whether one is a believer or not. If Allah is omnipotent and if he is compassionate, then he should straight away prevent whomsoever from becoming astray.
6:125. And whomsoever it is Allah's will to guide, He expandeth his bosom unto the Surrender, and whomsoever [infidel] it is His will to send astray, He maketh his [infidel's] bosom close and narrow as if he were engaged in sheer ascent. Thus Allah layeth ignominy [disgrace] upon those [infidels] who believe not.

178. He [a Muslim] who Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he [an infidel] whom Allah sendeth astray they [infidels] indeed are losers.
There are many other verses where Allah deliberately caused whomsoever to be astray.
Just addressing this part.


Quote:
The above imply, it is up to Allah discretion whether one is a believer or not. If Allah is omnipotent and if he is compassionate, then he should straight away prevent whomsoever from becoming astray.

Do you think he should have created you as a Muslim with no way of choosing another option? This sounds like predextination.

We are all equally created with the obligation to be seekers and be responsible for the results of our choices.
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just addressing this part.

Do you think he should have created you as a Muslim with no way of choosing another option? This sounds like predextination.

We are all equally created with the obligation to be seekers and be responsible for the results of our choices.
If Islam is really true, then yes, Allah should have created me as a Muslim.

The fact is Islam [supported by its core text, the Quran] manifest from the thoughts of a person and there is no real truth to what has been proclaimed therein.
Since Islam is never really true, then it is not applicable to me.

But you should not ignore what is stated in the Quran, i.e. Allah deliberately caused whomsoever to be astray and this is manifested in real evil when SOME Muslims acted upon those verses in combination with other evil laden verses.

It is acceptable that any religious text rely on stories, illusions, fantasy myths to get their message across to enable believers to deal with the inherent existential dilemma.

However Islam is the exception* where extensive evil laden verses are directly and indirectly condone by it highest absolute authority, i.e. God. This facilitate the "Milgram Effect" and what we get is real terrible evils and violence being committed by SOME Muslims all over the world at present and is a great threat to humanity in the future if nothing is done about it.

*We don't get believers of the other mainstream religions relying and quoting verses from their holy texts when committing and justifying their violent and evil acts.
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:51 PM
 
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"While the Qur'an is the exact word of God(swt). Few if any of us are arrogant enough to claim our interpretation is correct.
We do share opinions on the possible meanings of what we might not fully understand.
The "Word on the Street" is a valid way of determining majority opinion and can often serve as a quide to assist us in understanding the Qur'an."

This gets worse and worse. Now the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE has a book out that "Few if any" Muslims can understand...let alone the rest of mankind. But instead of updating the book - certainly a simple task of less than a nanosecond for the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE - he lets 'the word on the street' speak for him! On top of that, he condemns people who don't submit to everlasting horrible torture for not submitting to what is not translatable/understandable.
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Old 08-07-2015, 10:13 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
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"Do you think he should have created you as a Muslim with no way of choosing another option? "

Well, yes, if he was any kind of merciful and compassionate.....because all other options lead to horrible and everlasting torture BY ALLAH. What kind of a choice is that?

And as I have said several times....a sword (or gun, or bomb) is not an argument that convinces people to change their core belief systems in an instant. Threats of everlasting torture are also not an argument. The most you will get is lies...pretense to belief so that you aren't slaughtered and spend eternity in horrible torture. Does allah not understand this simple truth?

No, because allah then goes after people who pretend to submit with a vengeance also! Or maybe he's just really into torture.
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Old 08-07-2015, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"While the Qur'an is the exact word of God(swt). Few if any of us are arrogant enough to claim our interpretation is correct.
We do share opinions on the possible meanings of what we might not fully understand.
The "Word on the Street" is a valid way of determining majority opinion and can often serve as a quide to assist us in understanding the Qur'an."

This gets worse and worse. Now the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE has a book out that "Few if any" Muslims can understand...let alone the rest of mankind. But instead of updating the book - certainly a simple task of less than a nanosecond for the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE - he lets 'the word on the street' speak for him! On top of that, he condemns people who don't submit to everlasting horrible torture for not submitting to what is not translatable/understandable.
The Qur'an is not an instruction book on how to practice Islam. The Basic Message is very simple ""There is only one God(swt) and all who worship Him will reach Heaven" The 114 Surah simply explain why we should desire to do so, not how.

The Ahadith and the Madhabs explain "How to practice Islam" the Qur'an gives us reason to do so and make some sense out of this trial called life.
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Old 08-07-2015, 11:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Qur'an is not an instruction book on how to practice Islam. The Basic Message is very simple ""There is only one God(swt) and all who worship Him will reach Heaven" The 114 Surah simply explain why we should desire to do so, not how.

The Ahadith and the Madhabs explain "How to practice Islam" the Qur'an gives us reason to do so and make some sense out of this trial called life.
Nah ... you are wrong!

The Quran is partially an instruction book on how to be a Muslim and practice Islam. Of course being the core holy texts, its emphasis is on the main principles but you cannot deny there are no instructions on how a Muslim should behave and act within the 6236 verses of 114 chapters in the Quran.

Here is one instruction amongst the many; [mine]
47:4. Now when ye [as Muslims] meet in battle those [infidels] who disbelieve,
then it is smiting of the necks [strike off their heads] until, when ye [Muslims] have routed them [infidels],
then making fast of bonds;
and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens.
That (is the ordinance).
And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you [Muslims] by means of others [the infidels].
And those [Muslims] who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain [on Judgment Day].

The fact is when the Quran has insufficient detailed instructions it contribute to its weakness as a religion, especially when it has evil elements in it. This is because there is no central authority and SOME Muslims in their zealousness attempt to comply as close as possible to the message and principles of the Quran and that culminated in real terrible violence and evils committed by these 'SOME' Muslims.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-07-2015 at 11:45 PM..
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Old 08-08-2015, 05:45 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,690 times
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Compassionate, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.




But, how do you rate yourself? How do you see...you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe most moderate Muslims [I presume you are] at maximum are rated not more than 60% but they are better humans. I would rate the likes of Bin Laden at >80% but low in being human proper.

Wassalaam. devotee
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Old 08-08-2015, 09:20 AM
 
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"The Qur'an is not an instruction book on how to practice Islam. "

You say this, but those of us who have read the Quran know this is not the case. Over and over Continuum and I give examples. The Quran even has 10 commandments! And allah has very detailed instructions on how Muslims must act. Here are more examples:

4:22 "And do not marry those [women] whom your fathers married, except what has already occurred. Indeed, it was an immorality and hateful [to Allah ] and was evil as a way."

4:43 "O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying or in a state of janabah, except those passing through [a place of prayer], until you have washed [your whole body]. And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands [with it]. Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving."

9:5—Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.

4:74 "So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory - We will bestow upon him a great reward."

4:92 "And never is it for a believer to kill a believer except by mistake. And whoever kills a believer by mistake - then the freeing of a believing slave and a compensation payment presented to the deceased's family [is required] unless they give [up their right as] charity. But if the deceased was from a people at war with you and he was a believer - then [only] the freeing of a believing slave; and if he was from a people with whom you have a treaty - then a compensation payment presented to his family and the freeing of a believing slave. And whoever does not find [one or cannot afford to buy one] - then [instead], a fast for two months consecutively, [seeking] acceptance of repentance from Allah . And Allah is ever Knowing and Wise."

2:187 "It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] Allah , so do not approach them. Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous."

4:102 "And when you have completed the prayer, remember Allah standing, sitting, or [lying] on your sides. But when you become secure, re-establish [regular] prayer. Indeed, prayer has been decreed upon the believers a decree of specified times."

2:222 "And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves."

In fact, the Quran is full of commandments and decrees which are instructions on how to practice what allah demands. I have only given a tiny sample.

"The Basic Message is very simple ""There is only one God(swt) and all who worship Him will reach Heaven" The 114 Surah simply explain why we should desire to do so, not how."

Actually, the basic message is that anyone who doesn't submit to Islam is evil and will be forever tortured.

"The Ahadith and the Madhabs explain "How to practice Islam"

Well, Muhammed puts some of the instructions to practice setting an example to follow.

An example of this is the mass rape of captive women.

"The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

4:24
"And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you...."

"the Qur'an gives us reason to do so and make some sense out of this trial called life."

I have no further comment.
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Old 08-08-2015, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
........SNIP...............


I have no further comment.









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