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Old 08-08-2015, 10:15 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
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You know, when I was examining what was to become MY ideology I welcomed challenges. I loved hard questions and when I was proved wrong it was wonderful because I was LEARNING!

Intellectual honesty means constant validation and expansion of what someone knows and never evading or failing to correct a contradiction.

I never see this from Muslims.
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
You know, when I was examining what was to become MY ideology I welcomed challenges. I loved hard questions and when I was proved wrong it was wonderful because I was LEARNING!

Intellectual honesty means constant validation and expansion of what someone knows and never evading or failing to correct a contradiction.

I never see this from Muslims.

I also welcome sincere controversial questions.But, I also have a sense of humor and could not resist where you left yourself open on your last sentence.



But there are a whole bunch of very repetitive questions that seem to be cut and paste from wikiislam, faithfreedom, religionofpeace, etc.that appear to be attempts to convince Muslims to leave Islam.

Over a very short period of time the "Questions Muslims do not want you to ask" and the "100 most violent Verses in the Qur'an" become quite monotonous.

After time they become as irritating as proselytizers

The askers never accept the answers. Which are nearly always:

1. Poor Translations
2. Taken out of context
3. Weak Hadith
4. Relative to a specific event only.

The greatest error I find is so many, including some Muslims think a single ayyat is a command and a stand alone statement.


.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 08-08-2015 at 01:50 PM..
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Old 08-08-2015, 02:36 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
Reputation: 435
"But, I also have a sense of humor and could not resist where you left yourself open on your last sentence."

Rape and slaughter isn't funny.

"Over a very short period of time the "Questions Muslims do not want you to ask" and the "100 most violent Verses in the Qur'an" become quite monotonous."

And so do the apologetic answers and the abrogated verses used to prove that Islam is peaceful. However the rapes and terrorist attacks and child brides and incest and slaughters and hate never do bore me.

I gave up convincing devoted Muslims to embrace reality some 2,000 Muslims ago. If reality itself can't do the job, what chance do I have? I now write for the uninformed.

1. Poor Translations

"When the contradictions, absurdities, or the violent verses of the Quran are pointed out, Muslims will ask aggressively: “Do you know Arabic?” When the non-Muslim replies, “No”, they triumphantly say, “You have to read it in original Arabic to understand it fully”, or “These verses/words are not there in the original Arabic Quran”, or, “The exact meaning of the verses of the Quran is lost in the translation”, or “There are many fake translations of the Qur’an to malign Islam” etc. With this, Western critics generally become silent. If critics ask them to name a translation that they read to understand the Quran properly, they would hesitate to tell any name, but if you press them, they would name those same translations which they were denying to inaccurate. So, the conclusion is that they can use any translations for their understanding of the Quran properly, but if the critics discover errors and contradictions in the same translation, it becomes inaccurate.

Now the essentiality of reading the Quran in Arabic to understand it accurately, the question is: How many Muslims have read the Qur’an in original Arabic? Since the majority of the Muslims are not Arabs, they also rely on translations. When they have not read it in Arabic or they even don’t know anything about Arabic, how could they claim that it needs to be read in Arabic to understand correctly? Therefore, the language argument is a dishonest Muslim tactic to defend the many problems inherent in the Quran. Language is no barrier for find truth, as those who translated must have done so with extreme care and analysis and consultation from various sources. Furthermore, if they think those translations are wrong then why there is no protest against those fake translations, like the way Muslims generally do for any criticism and denigration against Islam and Muhammad. And how many Muslims scholars and Muslims read the Bible in Greek or Aramaic, the Torah in Hebrew or the Gita in Sanskrit before they criticize those scriptures, which they are most active at.

If the translations of the Quran by greatest scholars of Arabic language and Islam are full of errors, then who in this world has understood the Quran accurately? Why God has created the Quran in such a language and expressions that is difficult to grasp and interpret by the most proficient in Arabic? Though the purpose is to guide the entire population of the world, while Arabic is the language of humankind’s most treasured sacred book that is understood by small population in the world. Did Allah want to spend half of our lives in learning a language and then understanding His divine instruction?"

2. Taken out of context

"When one raises questions about verses of the Quran or Muhammad’s actions from the hadith, all Muslims—be it mullahs or educated moderate ones—parrot only one thing in defence: ‘You are talking out of context’, ‘please find out under what circumstances Muhammad did so’, ‘there must be some reason for that’ and so on. But they themselves will never try to find out those contexts or circumstances under which Muhammad did so many malicious things, or nonsensical or violence-inciting verses were revealed. And when you show them the context of verses from the tafsirs, which often make Islam appear even more evil and atrocious, they immediately change tune to claim that ‘this verse is allegorical’ and on the worst scenario, they would say ‘this verse is sarcastic’. Just imagine that the creator of the universe is talking in allegorical or sarcastic terms for guiding humanity through His divine scripture."

3. Weak Hadith

‘This Hadith is not authentic’ Argument

This argument is perhaps the last defence Muslims employ to save Islam. There are thousands of moral, scientific, and logical errors in the book of Hadiths, which itself is more than sufficient evidence to prove that Islam is a evil cult and Muhammad was a cruel imposter. But when questions raised on the integrity of Islam and Muhammad due to those numerous indefensible Hadiths, the sustainers of Islam come up with another explanation that those Hadiths (sayings and deeds of Muhammad as mentions in the books of Hadiths) are Da’eef (not authentic). On what basis they declare those Hadiths to be unauthentic is completely unexplained and cagey. If those Hadiths were not correct, then why the Muhadiths wrote those outrageous and incorrect things, still a nightmare for Islamic apologists? The acme of misdemeanor is that if those Hadiths are going to remain there even it is not authentic, so that they can bring them into play when needed.

"4. Relative to a specific event only."

Over and over I ask for proof of this and all I get back is garbage. And specific events are examples for Muslims to follow throughout history! No where does it say that this is a specific example and ignore it. Allah would have left it out of the Quran! Muhammed's actions are all examples of 'perfect behavior' and I doubt the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE wasted his time telling gory stories that do not relate to anything today.
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Old 08-08-2015, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"But, I also have a sense of humor and could not resist where you left yourself open on your last sentence."

Rape and slaughter isn't funny.

"Over a very short period of time the "Questions Muslims do not want you to ask" and the "100 most violent Verses in the Qur'an" become quite monotonous."

And so do the apologetic answers and the abrogated verses used to prove that Islam is peaceful. However the rapes and terrorist attacks and child brides and incest and slaughters and hate never do bore me.

I gave up convincing devoted Muslims to embrace reality some 2,000 Muslims ago. If reality itself can't do the job, what chance do I have? I now write for the uninformed.

1. Poor Translations

"When the contradictions, absurdities, or the violent verses of the Quran are pointed out, Muslims will ask aggressively: “Do you know Arabic?” When the non-Muslim replies, “No”, they triumphantly say, “You have to read it in original Arabic to understand it fully”, or “These verses/words are not there in the original Arabic Quran”, or, “The exact meaning of the verses of the Quran is lost in the translation”, or “There are many fake translations of the Qur’an to malign Islam” etc. With this, Western critics generally become silent. If critics ask them to name a translation that they read to understand the Quran properly, they would hesitate to tell any name, but if you press them, they would name those same translations which they were denying to inaccurate. So, the conclusion is that they can use any translations for their understanding of the Quran properly, but if the critics discover errors and contradictions in the same translation, it becomes inaccurate.

Now the essentiality of reading the Quran in Arabic to understand it accurately, the question is: How many Muslims have read the Qur’an in original Arabic? Since the majority of the Muslims are not Arabs, they also rely on translations. When they have not read it in Arabic or they even don’t know anything about Arabic, how could they claim that it needs to be read in Arabic to understand correctly? Therefore, the language argument is a dishonest Muslim tactic to defend the many problems inherent in the Quran. Language is no barrier for find truth, as those who translated must have done so with extreme care and analysis and consultation from various sources. Furthermore, if they think those translations are wrong then why there is no protest against those fake translations, like the way Muslims generally do for any criticism and denigration against Islam and Muhammad. And how many Muslims scholars and Muslims read the Bible in Greek or Aramaic, the Torah in Hebrew or the Gita in Sanskrit before they criticize those scriptures, which they are most active at.

If the translations of the Quran by greatest scholars of Arabic language and Islam are full of errors, then who in this world has understood the Quran accurately? Why God has created the Quran in such a language and expressions that is difficult to grasp and interpret by the most proficient in Arabic? Though the purpose is to guide the entire population of the world, while Arabic is the language of humankind’s most treasured sacred book that is understood by small population in the world. Did Allah want to spend half of our lives in learning a language and then understanding His divine instruction?"

2. Taken out of context

"When one raises questions about verses of the Quran or Muhammad’s actions from the hadith, all Muslims—be it mullahs or educated moderate ones—parrot only one thing in defence: ‘You are talking out of context’, ‘please find out under what circumstances Muhammad did so’, ‘there must be some reason for that’ and so on. But they themselves will never try to find out those contexts or circumstances under which Muhammad did so many malicious things, or nonsensical or violence-inciting verses were revealed. And when you show them the context of verses from the tafsirs, which often make Islam appear even more evil and atrocious, they immediately change tune to claim that ‘this verse is allegorical’ and on the worst scenario, they would say ‘this verse is sarcastic’. Just imagine that the creator of the universe is talking in allegorical or sarcastic terms for guiding humanity through His divine scripture."

3. Weak Hadith

‘This Hadith is not authentic’ Argument

This argument is perhaps the last defence Muslims employ to save Islam. There are thousands of moral, scientific, and logical errors in the book of Hadiths, which itself is more than sufficient evidence to prove that Islam is a evil cult and Muhammad was a cruel imposter. But when questions raised on the integrity of Islam and Muhammad due to those numerous indefensible Hadiths, the sustainers of Islam come up with another explanation that those Hadiths (sayings and deeds of Muhammad as mentions in the books of Hadiths) are Da’eef (not authentic). On what basis they declare those Hadiths to be unauthentic is completely unexplained and cagey. If those Hadiths were not correct, then why the Muhadiths wrote those outrageous and incorrect things, still a nightmare for Islamic apologists? The acme of misdemeanor is that if those Hadiths are going to remain there even it is not authentic, so that they can bring them into play when needed.

"4. Relative to a specific event only."

Over and over I ask for proof of this and all I get back is garbage. And specific events are examples for Muslims to follow throughout history! No where does it say that this is a specific example and ignore it. Allah would have left it out of the Quran! Muhammed's actions are all examples of 'perfect behavior' and I doubt the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE wasted his time telling gory stories that do not relate to anything today.
Good points and in my opinion does demonstrate that in Rebellious discussion communication often breaks down when when people of different religious beliefs attempt to debate.

Anger or irritation is often the result for example:
Quote:
Over and over I ask for proof of this and all I get back is garbage
I sincerely can not comprehend how anyone who practices Islam can come to the conclusion Islam promotes violence. In my opinion a person who believes Islam promotes violence, is not a muslim and does not understand Islam as a Muslim does.

To attempt to answer the first part

Quote:
1. Poor Translations

"When the contradictions, absurdities, or the violent verses of the Quran are pointed out, Muslims will ask aggressively: “Do you know Arabic?” When the non-Muslim replies, “No”, they triumphantly say, “You have to read it in original Arabic to understand it fully”, or “These verses/words are not there in the original Arabic Quran”, or, “The exact meaning of the verses of the Quran is lost in the translation”, or “There are many fake translations of the Qur’an to malign Islam” etc. With this, Western critics generally become silent. If critics ask them to name a translation that they read to understand the Quran properly, they would hesitate to tell any name, but if you press them, they would name those same translations which they were denying to inaccurate. So, the conclusion is that they can use any translations for their understanding of the Quran properly, but if the critics discover errors and contradictions in the same translation, it becomes inaccurate.Now the essentiality of reading the Quran in Arabic to understand it accurately, the question is: How many Muslims have read the Qur’an in original Arabic? Since the majority of the Muslims are not Arabs, they also rely on translations. When they have not read it in Arabic or they even don’t know anything about Arabic, how could they claim that it needs to be read in Arabic to understand correctly? Therefore, the language argument is a dishonest Muslim tactic to defend the many problems inherent in the Quran. Language is no barrier for find truth, as those who translated must have done so with extreme care and analysis and consultation from various sources. Furthermore, if they think those translations are wrong then why there is no protest against those fake translations, like the way Muslims generally do for any criticism and denigration against Islam and Muhammad. And how many Muslims scholars and Muslims read the Bible in Greek or Aramaic, the Torah in Hebrew or the Gita in Sanskrit before they criticize those scriptures, which they are most active at.

If the translations of the Quran by greatest scholars of Arabic language and Islam are full of errors, then who in this world has understood the Quran accurately? Why God has created the Quran in such a language and expressions that is difficult to grasp and interpret by the most proficient in Arabic? Though the purpose is to guide the entire population of the world, while Arabic is the language of humankind’s most treasured sacred book that is understood by small population in the world. Did Allah want to spend half of our lives in learning a language and then understanding His divine instruction?"
1. All translations contain numerous errors. Although most Muslims do not understand Arabic (initially) and rely upon Translations. Translations no matter how good are not the Qur'an. We do not consider any translation to be the Qur'an at best a Translation is a poor crutch to assist us as we learn Islam.

2. Islam is not learned through the Qur'an as I stated several times. No matter how knowledgeable one becomes regarding the Qur'an, the will not learn how to perform Islam through the Qur'an.

3. Most Muslims do grasp a working knowledge of Qur'anic Arabic in a short period of time.--It has a very small vocabulary

4. to learn how to perform Islam one needs to search the Madhabs, study all but select one to follow. All 4 Madhabs are equally Islam.

5. Islam is not based upon the Qur'an alone. We are to follow the teachings of all the Prophets(PBUT) that came before Muhammad(saws) and were revealed in the Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings.
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Old 08-08-2015, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
1. All translations contain numerous errors. Although most Muslims do not understand Arabic (initially) and rely upon Translations. Translations no matter how good are not the Qur'an. We do not consider any translation to be the Qur'an at best a Translation is a poor crutch to assist us as we learn Islam.
To understand the Quran is to understand its underlying principles not the form. I agree Arabic is very essential to understand the texts [btw not necessary the principles] of the Quran.

However one can understand the principles from the translated texts of the Quran of many translations by those expert in Arabic and the Islamic religion.
Note here is 51 English translations of the Quran by various experts in Arabic and Islam.
Qur'an
The above interpretations must be supported hermeneutically [you understand this term?] by advanced knowledge from all relevant fields [human nature, anthropology, history, philosophy, science, psychology, neuroscience, etc.] to reach the 'right' intended meaning of the Quran.

As I had stated, there is ONLY one Generic Human Spiritual System in ALL humans just as the Generic Human Digestive System and other generic human systems.

Based on the above approach, one will note Islam [albeit works for the majority] is a low grade religious system relative to the future well being of humanity.


Quote:
2. Islam is not learned through the Qur'an as I stated several times. No matter
how knowledgeable one becomes regarding the Qur'an, the will not learn how to
perform Islam through the Qur'an.
Based on the approach mentioned above, it is very easy to understand Islam and to perform Islam as presented in the Quran.

Quote:
3. Most Muslims do grasp a working knowledge of Qur'anic Arabic in a short period of time.--It has a very small vocabulary

4. to learn how to perform Islam one needs to search the Madhabs, study all but select one to follow. All 4 Madhabs are equally Islam.

5. Islam is not based upon the Qur'an alone. We are to follow the teachings of all the Prophets(PBUT) that came before Muhammad(saws) and were revealed in the Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings.
The Quran [as presented by Muhammad the person] is the specific core text and the sole representative of Islam-proper.

When one learn and adopt a specific or a combination of the Madhab[s] one is following a sect or a type of being-Muslim within the religion of Islam.

What was 'revealed in the Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings' is not 'Islam-proper.' It is merely a form of the Generic Human Spiritual System, albeit a lower grade, perhaps better than Islam which plagiarize their forms.
It is bad logic to assume Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings' are the same with Islam;
P1. 'Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings' are 'Forms' of the Generic Human Spiritual System.

P2. Islam-Quran is a form of the Generic Human Spiritual System.

C3. Therefore 'Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings' are the same as Islam-proper.
The above is VERY unsound logic!

Note the rhetoric and the sliding'
P1. Jews has brains
P2. Arabs has brains
C3. Therefore Arabs are [same with] Jews
Wake up! Jews and Arabs as human beings has brains in terms of generic biology, but for their many other forms they are different.

'Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings' and Islam can be discussed at the basic level of the Generic Human Spiritual System, BUT their Forms are totally different. The Jews, Christians, & Sabeans mocked Muhammad [as madman, invented a lie, hearer, etc.] for plagiarizing a major form of their religion. They are not the same as Religion.

Hope you get it this time.
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Old 08-08-2015, 10:37 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
Reputation: 435
"1. All translations contain numerous errors. Although most Muslims do not understand Arabic (initially) and rely upon Translations. Translations no matter how good are not the Qur'an. We do not consider any translation to be the Qur'an at best a Translation is a poor crutch to assist us as we learn Islam."

What this tells me is that deep down you know that the Quran is not from some CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, but from the mind of Muhammed. But you somehow evade this truth. Obviously if the Quran was from the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, that CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE would rewrite the whole stinking mess taking out the abrogated verses and making darn sure it was easily understandable BY ALL. That same CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE would be wondering how in the universe he created he ever came up with such a mess in the first place! That is, of course, unless that CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE actually LIKES the mess he created with the Quran. Could allah be that evil?

Better yet, this omnipotent and omniscient being would put his message on our cell phones! Or directly into our brains. What the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE would not do is let the pile of untranslatable message to earth fester and cause such horrible misunderstandings and slaughter and hate. This supernatural being is watching the every move and motive of all beings on earth....and he can't correct the untranslatable book he supposedly wrote?

"2. Islam is not learned through the Qur'an as I stated several times. No matter how knowledgeable one becomes regarding the Qur'an, the will not learn how to perform Islam through the Qur'an."

Stating something many times does not make it true. If there was no Quran, there would be no Islam, If there was no Muhammed, there would be no Quran.

"The Quran, the last revealed word of God, is the primary source of every Muslim’s faith and practice. It deals with all the subjects which concern human beings: wisdom, doctrine, worship, transactions, law, etc., but its basic theme is the relationship between God and His creatures. At the same time, it provides guidelines and detailed teachings for a just society, proper human conduct, and an equitable economic system."
Islam Guide: What Is the Quran About?

"The Qur'an comprehends the complete code for the Muslims to live a good, chaste, abundant and rewarding life in obedience to the commandments of Allah, in this life and to gain salvation in the next. It is the "chart of life" for every Muslim, and it is the "constitution" of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth."
What is the Qur'an? | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org

"The Quran represents the fountainhead of Divine guidance for every Muslim. Its revelation to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his practical implementation of the revelation, completed God’s blessing for humanity, in providing us with a belief and value system that is valid for all times."
What is the Quran?

"3. Most Muslims do grasp a working knowledge of Qur'anic Arabic in a short period of time.--It has a very small vocabulary "

I doubt that. The illiteracy rate itself is over 50% from what I've read. Most of the rest do not speak classic arabic beyond memorizing a few verses from the Quran. To copy your logical fallacy, Muslims are also free in their criticism of the Bible and Christianity without knowing a word of Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.

"4. to learn how to perform Islam one needs to search the Madhabs, study all but select one to follow. All 4 Madhabs are equally Islam."

Meaningless.

"5. Islam is not based upon the Qur'an alone. We are to follow the teachings of all the Prophets(PBUT) that came before Muhammad(saws) and were revealed in the Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings."

Believe what you must. I care about Muhammed's/Allah's evil behavior and teachings.

"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews." -- Sahih Muslim 6985

Sahih Bukhari 4.52.177: "Allah's Apostle said, The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say: 'O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him'."

Again the question arises:
Why is the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE letting this sickening mess go on? Allah even stirred the pot!! Is the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE a sadist?
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Old 08-09-2015, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To understand the Quran is to understand its underlying principles not the form. I agree Arabic is very essential to understand the texts [btw not necessary the principles] of the Quran.

However one can understand the principles from the translated texts of the Quran of many translations by those expert in Arabic and the Islamic religion.
Note here is 51 English translations of the Quran by various experts in Arabic and Islam.
Qur'an
The above interpretations must be supported hermeneutically [you understand this term?] by advanced knowledge from all relevant fields [human nature, anthropology, history, philosophy, science, psychology, neuroscience, etc.] to reach the 'right' intended meaning of the Quran.

As I had stated, there is ONLY one Generic Human Spiritual System in ALL humans just as the Generic Human Digestive System and other generic human systems.

Based on the above approach, one will note Islam [albeit works for the majority] is a low grade religious system relative to the future well being of humanity.


Based on the approach mentioned above, it is very easy to understand Islam and to perform Islam as presented in the Quran.

The Quran [as presented by Muhammad the person] is the specific core text and the sole representative of Islam-proper.

When one learn and adopt a specific or a combination of the Madhab[s] one is following a sect or a type of being-Muslim within the religion of Islam.

What was 'revealed in the Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings' is not 'Islam-proper.' It is merely a form of the Generic Human Spiritual System, albeit a lower grade, perhaps better than Islam which plagiarize their forms.
It is bad logic to assume Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings' are the same with Islam;
P1. 'Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings' are 'Forms' of the Generic Human Spiritual System.

P2. Islam-Quran is a form of the Generic Human Spiritual System.

C3. Therefore 'Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings' are the same as Islam-proper.
The above is VERY unsound logic!

Note the rhetoric and the sliding'
P1. Jews has brains
P2. Arabs has brains
C3. Therefore Arabs are [same with] Jews
Wake up! Jews and Arabs as human beings has brains in terms of generic biology, but for their many other forms they are different.

'Jewish, Sabeean and Christian teachings' and Islam can be discussed at the basic level of the Generic Human Spiritual System, BUT their Forms are totally different. The Jews, Christians, & Sabeans mocked Muhammad [as madman, invented a lie, hearer, etc.] for plagiarizing a major form of their religion. They are not the same as Religion.

Hope you get it this time.
In case you are not aware of it there are Jewish, Christian, Atheist etc Arabs and very few Muslims are Arab. The Majority of Arabs living outs side Saudi are Christians.
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Old 08-09-2015, 10:47 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
Reputation: 435
"I sincerely can not comprehend how anyone who practices Islam can come to the conclusion Islam promotes violence."

Let's do this....let's both post verses from the Quran. I'll post hateful verses against disbelievers and you post verses of love and peace towards disbelievers. We'll start with 5 verses each (with surrounding verses if needed for context) and go from there. I'll go first:

Quran 2:22-23 And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful. But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

2:39 And those who disbelieve and deny Our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.

2:59 But those who wronged changed [those words] to a statement other than that which had been said to them, so We sent down upon those who wronged a punishment from the sky because they were defiantly disobeying.

2 65-66 And you had already known about those who transgressed among you concerning the sabbath, and We said to them, "Be apes, despised." And We made it a deterrent punishment for those who were present and those who succeeded [them] and a lesson for those who fear Allah.

2:89 And when there came to them a Book from Allah confirming that which was with them - although before they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieved - but [then] when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in it; so the curse of Allah will be upon the disbelievers.
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Old 08-09-2015, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"I sincerely can not comprehend how anyone who practices Islam can come to the conclusion Islam promotes violence."

Let's do this....let's both post verses from the Quran. I'll post hateful verses against disbelievers and you post verses of love and peace towards disbelievers. We'll start with 5 verses each (with surrounding verses if needed for context) and go from there. I'll go first:

Quran 2:22-23 And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful. But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

2:39 And those who disbelieve and deny Our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.

2:59 But those who wronged changed [those words] to a statement other than that which had been said to them, so We sent down upon those who wronged a punishment from the sky because they were defiantly disobeying.

2 65-66 And you had already known about those who transgressed among you concerning the sabbath, and We said to them, "Be apes, despised." And We made it a deterrent punishment for those who were present and those who succeeded [them] and a lesson for those who fear Allah.

2:89 And when there came to them a Book from Allah confirming that which was with them - although before they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieved - but [then] when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in it; so the curse of Allah will be upon the disbelievers.

Indeed, Allah enjoins justice, and the doing of good to others; and giving like kindred; and forbids indecency, and manifest evil, and wrongful transgression. He admonished you that you may take heed. (Al Quran 16:91)

And as for those who strive in Our path — We will surely guide them in Our ways. And Indeed, Allah is with those who are of service to others. (Al Quran 29:70)

Indeed, Allah is with those who are righteous and those who do good. (Al Quran 16:129)

The reward of goodness is nothing but goodness. (Al Quran 55:61)

And good and evil are not alike. Repel evil with that which is best. And lo, he between whom and thyself was enmity will become as though he were a warm friend. But none is granted it save those who are steadfast; and none is granted it save those who possess a large share of good. (Al Quran 41:35-36)
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Old 08-09-2015, 12:58 PM
 
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2:90 "How wretched is that for which they sold themselves - that they would disbelieve in what Allah has revealed through [their] outrage that Allah would send down His favor upon whom He wills from among His servants. So they returned having [earned] wrath upon wrath. And for the disbelievers is a humiliating punishment."

2:96 And you will surely find them the most greedy of people for life - [even] more than those who associate others with Allah . One of them wishes that he could be granted life a thousand years, but it would not remove him in the least from the [coming] punishment that he should be granted life. And Allah is Seeing of what they do.

2:104 O you who have believed, say not [to Allah 's Messenger], "Ra'ina" but say, "Unthurna" and listen. And for the disbelievers is a painful punishment.

2:108 Or do you intend to ask your Messenger as Moses was asked before? And whoever exchanges faith for disbelief has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way.

2:114 And who are more unjust than those who prevent the name of Allah from being mentioned in His mosques and strive toward their destruction. It is not for them to enter them except in fear. For them in this world is disgrace, and they will have in the Hereafter a great punishment.
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