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Old 08-12-2015, 10:30 PM
 
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"Not a one of them is promoting violence."

Actually, if you look at the context, they are! These are all verses by the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE (according to Islam) and this stuff is all in the Quran, which is the direct word from this all-knowing and all-powerful fellow. If Muslims, who have totally submitted to this guy) read about all this hate and how disbelievers deserve punishment...and I mean endless and horrible punishment, painful torment, over and over and over...then why would they think that they should be peaceful and loving towards these nasty disbelievers? Just like if parents teach their children over and over to hate a neighbor and that neighbor is evil and causes great distress to the beloved parents....how will the child react?

Besides, I'm just getting started!! And remember the challenge:

"I'll post hateful verses against disbelievers and you post verses of love and peace towards disbelievers."

You're putting in a pretty sad showing so far. While I'm finding a plethora of verses of hate and endless punishment. And like I said, I'm just getting started!! I could post hundreds of verses. There are so many more than I remembered. I started with chapter 1 and am not posting nearly as many verses as I could. There sure is a lot of hate. I'm only on chapter 4 out of 114 chapters!

Anyways, claiming that Islam is a religion of peace and love is falling flat unless you can come up with some verses that show love and peace towards disbelievers.

"To disbelieve is a matter of choice and a deliberated rejection of God(swt)."

This is amusing because YOU don't believe in gods that other people may have. That makes YOU a disbeliever!

Anyways, back to my verses, and you're getting WAY behind:

4:115 "And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination."

4:137 - 138
Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way. Give tidings to the hypocrites that there is for them a painful punishment -

4:140 And it has already come down to you in the Book that when you hear the verses of Allah [recited], they are denied [by them] and ridiculed; so do not sit with them until they enter into another conversation. Indeed, you would then be like them. Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and disbelievers in Hell all together -

4:150 - 151 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between -Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

4:173 And as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards and grant them extra from His bounty. But as for those who disdained and were arrogant, He will punish them with a painful punishment, and they will not find for themselves besides Allah any protector or helper.

Look here:
4:133 "If He wills, He can do away with you, O people, and bring others [in your place]. And ever is Allah competent to do that."
Now this is an interesting find. Allah is saying right here that he could simply get rid of all non-Muslims. He could also, I am sure, just turn them into Muslims. Poof! Yet he leaves the disbelievers so he can have a good time endlessly torturing them throughout eternity. Why does Allah love this hate and torture and hellfire? And why doesn't allah just get rid of Satan? Is Satan stronger? I thought allah was all-powerful.
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Old 08-12-2015, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Not a one of them is promoting violence."

Actually, if you look at the context, they are! These are all verses by the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE (according to Islam) and this stuff is all in the Quran, which is the direct word from this all-knowing and all-powerful fellow. If Muslims, who have totally submitted to this guy) read about all this hate and how disbelievers deserve punishment...and I mean endless and horrible punishment, painful torment, over and over and over...then why would they think that they should be peaceful and loving towards these nasty disbelievers? Just like if parents teach their children over and over to hate a neighbor and that neighbor is evil and causes great distress to the beloved parents....how will the child react?

Besides, I'm just getting started!! And remember the challenge:

"I'll post hateful verses against disbelievers and you post verses of love and peace towards disbelievers."

You're putting in a pretty sad showing so far. While I'm finding a plethora of verses of hate and endless punishment. And like I said, I'm just getting started!! I could post hundreds of verses. There are so many more than I remembered. I started with chapter 1 and am not posting nearly as many verses as I could. There sure is a lot of hate. I'm only on chapter 4 out of 114 chapters!

Anyways, claiming that Islam is a religion of peace and love is falling flat unless you can come up with some verses that show love and peace towards disbelievers.

"To disbelieve is a matter of choice and a deliberated rejection of God(swt)."

This is amusing because YOU don't believe in gods that other people may have. That makes YOU a disbeliever!

Anyways, back to my verses, and you're getting WAY behind:

4:115 "And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination."

4:137 - 138
Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way. Give tidings to the hypocrites that there is for them a painful punishment -

4:140 And it has already come down to you in the Book that when you hear the verses of Allah [recited], they are denied [by them] and ridiculed; so do not sit with them until they enter into another conversation. Indeed, you would then be like them. Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and disbelievers in Hell all together -

4:150 - 151 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between -Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

4:173 And as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards and grant them extra from His bounty. But as for those who disdained and were arrogant, He will punish them with a painful punishment, and they will not find for themselves besides Allah any protector or helper.

Look here:
4:133 "If He wills, He can do away with you, O people, and bring others [in your place]. And ever is Allah competent to do that."
Now this is an interesting find. Allah is saying right here that he could simply get rid of all non-Muslims. He could also, I am sure, just turn them into Muslims. Poof! Yet he leaves the disbelievers so he can have a good time endlessly torturing them throughout eternity. Why does Allah love this hate and torture and hellfire? And why doesn't allah just get rid of Satan? Is Satan stronger? I thought allah was all-powerful.
Answering the last part, unlike Christianty Shaytan is not a specific being. It is any temptation or person that leads us astray or any being that goes against Allaah(swt) It even includes our own inner thoughts. Any sapient being with free will is capable of being a Shaytan, including you and me.


I see this posting ayyats as a rather pointless effort on either of our parts. I am not going to accept any you post as being violent and you are not going to accept any I post as being peaceful.


Everyone you have posted I find to be very peacefull when read in their entirity and not seen as a stand alone command

Using one you just posted

4:173 And as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards and grant them extra from His bounty. But as for those who disdained and were arrogant, He will punish them with a painful punishment, and they will not find for themselves besides Allah any protector or helper.

When understood it is very peaceful and a message of hope for all people

It is a message that all people will be protected, if they allow them self to be. if you read the whole discourse which is 136-175

Resuming the theme of defence, the Muslims have been warned to be on their guard against their enemies. They have been admonished to take necessary precautions against the machinations of the hypocrites and the unbelievers and the people of the Book. As belief in Allah, and Revelation and Life-after-death is the only safeguard against every kind of enemy, they should sincerely believe in and follow His Messenger, Muhammad (Allah's peace be upon him). 136 - 175

Looking at just the last 10 ayyats of the discourse we find:

4:165 (Picktall) Messengers of good cheer and off warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

4:166 (Picktall) But Allah (Himself) testifieth concerning that which He hath revealed unto thee; in His knowledge hath He revealed it; and the Angels also testify. And Allah is sufficient witness.

4:167 (Picktall) Lo! those who disbelieve and hinder (others) from the way of Allah, they verily have wandered far astray.

4:168 (Picktall) Lo! those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road,

4:169 (Picktall) Except the road of hell, wherein they will abide for ever. And that is ever easy for Allah.

4:170 (Picktall) O mankind! The messenger hath come unto you with the truth from your Lord. Therefore believe; (it is) better for you. But if ye disbelieve, still, lo! unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

4:171 (Picktall) O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three". Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

4:172 (Picktall) The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favored angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him;

4:173 (Picktall) Then, as for those who believed and did good works, unto them will He pay their wages in full, adding unto them of His bounty; and as for those who were scornful and proud, them will He punish with a painful doom. And they will not find for them, against Allah, any protecting friend or helper.

4:174 (Picktall) O mankind! Now hath a proof from your Lord come unto you, and We have sent down unto you a clear light;

4:175 (Picktall) As for those who believe in Allah, and hold fast unto Him, them He will cause to enter into His mercy and grace, and will guide them unto Him by a straight road.

It is a message of hope and how all of mankind can be saved. There is no violence or evil found here. A clear message that all people can reach heaven and reasons why they should seek to.

An interesting foot note Ayyat 176 was revealed very long after 175 and is more closely related to the first discourse of the surat.





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Old 08-12-2015, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Look here:
4:133 "If He wills, He can do away with you, O people, and bring others [in your place]. And ever is Allah competent to do that."

Now this is an interesting find. Allah is saying right here that he could simply get rid of all non-Muslims. He could also, I am sure, just turn them into Muslims. Poof!

Yet he leaves the disbelievers so he can have a good time endlessly torturing them throughout eternity. Why does Allah love this hate and torture and hellfire? And why doesn't allah just get rid of Satan? Is Satan stronger? I thought allah was all-powerful.
Not only that he leaves the disbelievers as they are, I have marked 69 verses [could be more] where Allah DELIBERATELY create disbelievers and caused them to be astray. Here is one example among the many others; [mine]
35:8. Is he, the evil of whose deeds is made fair seeming unto him [infidels] so that he [infidels] deemeth it good, (other than Satan's dupe)?
Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will, so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them [infidels].
Lo! Allah is Aware of what they [infidels] do!
Then the infidels [Kafara, kafir, Kuffar] are tortured with vengeful glee.

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Old 08-12-2015, 11:52 PM
 
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Well, what I know is that as a disbeliever I am the subject of a great deal of hate speech and threats in the Quran. I am accused of being evil and the Quran says I should be endlessly and horribly tortured and slaughtered and it goes on and on from there. It's really sickening. To be treated well I must give up my moral values and submit to an imaginary being of great evil that was invented by one of the most evil men ever.

Morality does not matter, only my full submission to Muhammed/Allah. And there is no way I can force myself to hold that belief any more than you could force yourself to believe in the tooth fairy. So, according to you and your Islam, I am now doomed to eternal hell and torment. Shame on you and shame on Islam. Do I, someone who rescues animals, has never hurt a soul, lived by my moral values of justice, rationality, courage, integrity, honesty, kindness, productivity, independent thought....standing for freedom and individual rights ....do I deserve humiliating and terrible torture for all time...based on the judgement of god that OK's rape and torture and sex with a child and slaughter of people like me?

And today Muslims really are slaughtering people that they deem disbelievers (as well as each other) and are doing their best to ruin western countries. The rapes, the terrorism, the demands for shariah law, the child brides, the female genital mutilation, the destruction of historical books and buildings, the slavery, the hatred and beheadings and attacks on Jews and Christians MUST STOP.

But I see no end to it. All because one evil man wrote an evil book and somehow over a billion people fell for the evil bamboozle.

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

― Carl Sagan
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Old 08-13-2015, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I see this posting ayyats as a rather pointless effort on either of our parts. I am not going to accept any you post as being violent and you are not going to accept any I post as being peaceful.


Everyone you have posted I find to be very peacefull when read in their entirety and not seen as a stand alone command.
Presumable you missed my earlier posting.
Think!
Do you think [in general] films and other medias that contain a lot of violence and evil scenes and element deliberately set out to promote evils and violence?
I am sure they don't have such intentions to promote violence other than to make money within a background of entertainment to the public.
Depending on the degree, the authorities imposed censorships, banning, the need to issue warnings to audience, PG ratings and other preventive methods.

Do you agree whilst there is no intention to promote violence, somehow medias containing violence and elements will influence SOME vulnerable children [especially] and adults to commit violence and evil?
Yes or No?

The Quran contain violent and evil elements and it is a fact it has influenced and inspired SOME Muslims to commit evils and violence. This is a fact you cannot deny.

There various types of evil and violent elements in the Quran. Those related to the threat of hell may not be as significant as those of the sword verses and other kind, but they nevertheless add to the impact.

Why you have a strong denial the verses are violent is because you as an individual is bias and also because of your personal conditions, e.g. background, age, etc.
Humanity is not too worried with people like you and 80% of Muslims [at least at present] around the world but the concerned is with the 20% i.e. a pool of 300 million with a potential to be influenced into violence by the evil element in the Quran.

Not everyone has potential aggressive and violent genes and perhaps you are one of those who don't have aggressive violent genes. Even if you have them, the aggressive elements have been eroded [depleted testosterone, atrophy of violent neurons, etc. ] due to age.
However re Bell Curve you cannot deny existence of the potential of 20% humans which are reasonably prone to evils and violence.

For the sake of humanity you should step out of your subjective shoes and face the reality of the whole situation from a objective and universal view.
Preferably you should have the view that as an individual you have no choice [due to psychological-theistic state] but to be a Muslim and accept Islam, but you have to accept the reality that the same Islam [core Quran] you rely upon has in part inherent malignant evils that need to be recognized, highlighted and dealt with by humanity.
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Old 08-13-2015, 12:14 AM
 
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"Then the infidels [Kafara, kafir, Kuffar] are tortured with vengeful glee."

This just makes me heart sick. Of course this is all from the imagination of Muhammed. But horrors are carried out every day....millions of people slaughtered in the name of Islam. And life is so very precious.
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Old 08-13-2015, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Then the infidels [Kafara, kafir, Kuffar] are tortured with vengeful glee."

This just makes me heart sick. Of course this is all from the imagination of Muhammed. But horrors are carried out every day....millions of people slaughtered in the name of Islam. And life is so very precious.

Millions slaughtered inn the name of Islam?

In today's world the Muslims that are doung any slaughtering are almost exclusevly doing so in the name of the IS not Islam. and the number is closer to Hundreds not millions.

there have been no more then 170,000 killed by ISIS and that number seems to be an inflated exaggeration

To date, more than 170,000 people (mostly Christians and Shiites) were killed in Iraq by ISIS. Why is nobody talking about this genocide?
Comment1
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Jon Mixon
Jon Mixon, I have studied the majority of world conflicts from the Punic Wars until mode...
Jon has 100+ answers in Terrorism.
Because that number seems to be improbably high given ISISí size and the relatively short length of time that the uprising that they are involved has been happening and the limited number of ISIS combatants that there are. Even the Syrian conflict which has been raging for over 3 years has a death tolls comparable to the number you have cited questioner and thatís a full scale civil war.

While the death toll in Iraq is certainly high, 170k seems to be an arbitrary number with no basis in fact.
To date, more than 170,000 people (mostly Christians and Shiites) were killed in Iraq by ISIS. Why is nobody talking about this genocide? - Quora
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Old 08-13-2015, 10:06 AM
 
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"Millions slaughtered inn the name of Islam?"

Indeed.

"Christians
The number of Christians martyred by Islam is 9 million [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10] . A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another 50 million died in wars by jihad. So counting the million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have:
60 million Christians

Hindus
Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of 80 million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. [Koenard Elst, Negationism in India, Voice of India, New Delhi, 2002, pg. 34.] The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. The mountains near India are called the Hindu Kush, meaning the “funeral pyre of the Hindus.”
80 million Hindus

Buddhists
Buddhists do not keep up with the history of war. Keep in mind that in jihad only Christians and Jews were allowed to survive as dhimmis (servants to Islam) everyone else had to convert or die. Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly 10 million. [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-1.] 10 million Buddhists"

Tears of Jihad - Political Islam
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Old 08-13-2015, 10:14 AM
 
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"In today's world the Muslims that are doung any slaughtering are almost exclusevly doing so in the name of the IS not Islam."

ISIS is certainly Islam and following the Quran.

Further, if you want to talk about recent slaughter, Muslims are slaughtering Muslims by the millions in the name of Islam.

“Some 11,000,000 Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow Muslims.”
https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...ing-muslims-2/

If you want to watch that number grow, here:
TheReligionofPeace - About the List of Islamic Terror Attacks
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Old 08-13-2015, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Millions slaughtered inn the name of Islam?

In today's world the Muslims that are doing any slaughtering are almost exclusevly doing so in the name of the IS not Islam. and the number is closer to Hundreds not millions.
Islam is essentially represented by its core, the Quran and supported by its various expositions and ethos.
IS is following exactly the same Quran that all Muslims are adhering to.
The difference is IS is more compliant certain dictates of that same Quran.
Therefore IS it nothing else but Islam.

Ever since Islam emerged, there have been different groups of more compliant Muslims committing terrible evils as inspired by SOME evil laden elements in the Quran. They are direct manifestations of Islam. IS is merely one such group. IF IS is defeated there will be other groups waiting in line to continue the ravage on humanity.
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