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Old 08-05-2015, 06:36 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Muslims often proudly brag that Islam is about 'submit to Allah'.
However the verse below appear that 'believe in Allah is more stronger in degree of being a Muslim than 'submit to Allah.'
49:14 [Pickthall] The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

49:15 The (true) believers are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. Such are the sincere.
I wonder whether the majority of Muslims know the difference since Allah imply in 49:14-15 there is a difference.

I don't think most are able to differentiate the difference between 'submit' and 'believe.'

Thus when a Muslim has been 'submitting to Allah' rather than 'believing in Allah', he could be a lesser-Muslim -1 to <50% rather than a truer Muslim - > 75%+ .

I understand when Muslims face Allah on Judgment Day they are given gradings e.g. % marks and rewards are allocated in accordance to one's performance as a Muslim on in the earthly world.
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:44 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,690 times
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.




This verse is self explanatory. It states clearly, that "faith" has not entered into the hearts of some Muslims. Therefore, they cannot believe/are not believers. Faith can come only from Allaah, The Glorious, The High Exalted, Alone.


Quote:
49:14 [Pickthall] The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.



Wassalaam. devotee
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Old 08-05-2015, 06:08 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,612 times
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"49:14 [Pickthall] The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts."

This seems to be a contradiction. To submit, you have to believe in the thing you submit to. Or do you?

Muhammed and Muslims throughout the ages use(d) death threats and torture to force people to submit to Islam. But that can't work. All that would do is make people fake what is demanded at the point of a sword, or gun. If I threatened devotee with death unless he became an atheist, would that work? No. Beliefs don't work like that.

What I think Muhammed is saying in this verse is just what I am talking about. He knows that these Arabs do not believe in Allah and Islam but he wants power over everyone. Muhammed therefore puts the cart before the horse: submission before belief.
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Old 08-05-2015, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
This verse is self explanatory. It states clearly, that "faith" has not entered into the hearts of some Muslims. Therefore, they cannot believe/are not believers. Faith can come only from Allaah, The Glorious, The High Exalted, Alone.
So I presumed you agree 'believe' is stronger than 'submit'

In your case, how do you know that "faith" has entered into your 'heart'?
You may think you are "believing" when in fact you could be merely 'submitting' thus a lesser-ranked Muslim.

As per Quran, it comes is degrees.
For one fact, I know serious "devotion" [devotee] is more toward 'submitting' than 'believing'.
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"49:14 [Pickthall] The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts."

This seems to be a contradiction. To submit, you have to believe in the thing you submit to. Or do you?

Muhammed and Muslims throughout the ages use(d) death threats and torture to force people to submit to Islam. But that can't work. All that would do is make people fake what is demanded at the point of a sword, or gun. If I threatened devotee with death unless he became an atheist, would that work? No. Beliefs don't work like that.

What I think Muhammed is saying in this verse is just what I am talking about. He knows that these Arabs do not believe in Allah and Islam but he wants power over everyone. Muhammed therefore puts the cart before the horse: submission before belief.
IMO, this 'submit' versus 'believe' in the case of Islam need further refine expositions.

In philosophy there is a continuum of the following from;
1. Opinions -personal views, common views, conjectures, etc., to
2. Beliefs - subjectivity only, to
3. Knowledge -subjectivity + objectivity

Each of the above variables come in degrees.

Per Quran 49:14-15 I read
'submit' = 90% opinions + 10% beliefs, while,
'believe' = 90% beliefs + 10% opinion

As such to submit, one still 'believe' in a sense but the % of believe is very low, say 10%, while that of opinion is very high at say, 90%.

Thus 'believe' would be 90% beliefs + 10% opinion.

The above definitions need to supported by other knowledge, e.g. neuroscience, neuro-psychology, neuro-philosophy, etc. etc. to ensure they are sound.

I believe [hypothesis], a stronger 'believe' has led to more violence.
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Old 08-06-2015, 04:24 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,690 times
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
So I presumed you agree 'believe' is stronger than 'submit'

In your case, how do you know that "faith" has entered into your 'heart'?
You may think you are "believing" when in fact you could be merely 'submitting' thus a lesser-ranked Muslim.


Of course there is a difference concerning those who embrace Islam, and those, like myself, whom sincerely love Allaah (SWT), and His Messenger (SAW), and strive with their wealth and their lives, and do not doubt.

Quote:
49:15 The (true) believers are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. Such are the sincere.



Wassalaam. devotee
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Old 08-06-2015, 07:01 AM
 
2,826 posts, read 1,866,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Muslims often proudly brag that Islam is about 'submit to Allah'.
However the verse below appear that 'believe in Allah is more stronger in degree of being a Muslim than 'submit to Allah.'
49:14 [Pickthall] The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

49:15 The (true) believers are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. Such are the sincere.
I wonder whether the majority of Muslims know the difference since Allah imply in 49:14-15 there is a difference.

I don't think most are able to differentiate the difference between 'submit' and 'believe.'

Thus when a Muslim has been 'submitting to Allah' rather than 'believing in Allah', he could be a lesser-Muslim -1 to <50% rather than a truer Muslim - > 75%+ .

I understand when Muslims face Allah on Judgment Day they are given gradings e.g. % marks and rewards are allocated in accordance to one's performance as a Muslim on in the earthly world.
I would prefer you believe in your god. What tends to happen is that people react to how they are treated. If people have a god that insists they bow and scrape in submission and treats their women like crap, they lash out and bully others. If people have a God that loves them, ideally they would learn to forgive and love others.
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Old 08-06-2015, 07:40 AM
 
1,244 posts, read 710,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't think most are able to differentiate the difference between 'submit' and 'believe.'
This is taught to any and every muslim who attends religious classes. Muslims read the Quran. Iman is a degree above Islam. And Ihsan is above Iman.
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Old 08-06-2015, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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There are those who believe, but do not perform Islam, just as there are those who claim to perform Islam but do not believe.

As to who will find Heaven is not up to us. We can only do what our own searching
leads us to.

In my own opinion I do not believe a person can fully perform Islam without believing. As the first of the 5 actions of performing Islam is to believe with sincerity and knowledge that "There is only one God(swt) and Muhammad(saws) is His messenger."

The other 4 pilers can be performed without belief as they are physical actions, establish prayers, Give to Charity,Fast during Ramadan and perform Hajj if able to.

I see it as being a bit of hypocrisy to claim to follow the First pillar if one does not believe.

but I also believe Allaah(swt) does not require perfection, only that we we our best in accordance with our knowledge and ability.

I can not comprehend how a person who believes and performs Islam can find commands to commit violent acts of aggression and wantonly harm innocent people. The Qur'an and the Madhabs are all about the necessity to Treat all people fairly and to not be aggressors.
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Old 08-07-2015, 01:03 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are those who believe, but do not perform Islam, just as there are those who claim to perform Islam but do not believe.

As to who will find Heaven is not up to us. We can only do what our own searching
leads us to.

In my own opinion I do not believe a person can fully perform Islam without believing. As the first of the 5 actions of performing Islam is to believe with sincerity and knowledge that "There is only one God(swt) and Muhammad(saws) is His messenger."

The other 4 pilers can be performed without belief as they are physical actions, establish prayers, Give to Charity,Fast during Ramadan and perform Hajj if able to.

I see it as being a bit of hypocrisy to claim to follow the First pillar if one does not believe.

but I also believe Allaah(swt) does not require perfection, only that we we our best in accordance with our knowledge and ability.

I can not comprehend how a person who believes and performs Islam can find commands to commit violent acts of aggression and wantonly harm innocent people. The Qur'an and the Madhabs are all about the necessity to Treat all people fairly and to not be aggressors.
I agree there is always a gap between believing and performance. I am not into this point in this case.

In this case, I presume one is performing as close to what one is believing [%] or submitting [%].

My question to you is,
How do you know what you are believing is actually the true belief of Islam in totality, i.e. a mark of >90%+ of what it take to be a Muslim.
From what I have read of the Quran and comparing your postings, I believe your degree of being of a Muslim could be, say, not more than 55%.

Your status is likely to be [imo];
As Muslim -Submitting = 40%, Believing [55%]; as a human being [70%].

On the other hand, a fundamentalist Muslim is likely to be [imo];
As Muslim -Submitting =10%, Believing [90%]; as a human being [30%]

The degree of 'believing' in this case is based on the % of compliance by a Muslim to the whole of the Quran in the critical and significant elements.

The fundamentalists can tick off more compliances with the Quran than you, that is objective as far as this comparison is concerned.
The point is who is to decide other than what is stated in the Quran [alone].

Note a lesser ranked Muslims will be accorded less rewards on That DAY as compared to the truer higher ranked Muslim.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-07-2015 at 01:16 AM..
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