U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-09-2015, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,597,219 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It has nothing to do with Muslims harming non-believers. It is all about judgement day and who will spend eternity where. It is a warning as to what non-believers can expect after death. Also notice it is about those who actually deliberately ...
Yes, it is a warning and a threat of the consequences of what to expect if one do not believe in Allah, Islam and Muhammad.

However there is the inevitable "Milgram Effect."
Yes those verses of the worst kind of cruelties are about torture of non-Muslims in hell. This is also a indirect way of dehumanizing the 'out-group.'
However when hundreds of such verses are directed and thrown at the 'out-group' [the infidels, Kuffar] together with brainwashing using thousands of anti- and negative sentiments, it is natural SOME will commit evil acts against the infidels.

There various types of negative sentiments, put-down and all sort of evil condemnation of non-believers merely because they do not believe.

In addition to the cruel and violence verses related to Judgment Day, the most malignant are the hundreds!! of sword and violent verses directed at how Muslims should deal with Non-Muslims in real life if and when Muslims are persecuted and religion of Islam is wronged or threatened.

The combinations of the thousands of evil condemnation of non-Muslims as the 'out-group' together with the 'Milgram Effect' contribute to the real terrible evils and violence that is committed by SOME Muslims around the world.

The dilemma is the 'Migram Effect' and evil is real psychology plus the 'Quran with its evil-laden verses' are immutable and floating in the brains/minds of 1.5 billion people on Earth.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-10-2015, 06:13 AM
 
226 posts, read 124,258 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

I read through them. Any encouragement to treat non-Muslims well was quite weak. It didn't really explicitly mention them. In some cases it could have been talking about non-Muslims but there wasn't anything that clear.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2015, 07:42 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,280 times
Reputation: 435
"Your answer will differ depending on if a Muslim or Non-Muslim answers."

The answer may differ but reality remains objective. On another thread I am posting verses from the quran that show hate towards disbelievers. You are supposed to be posting verses of love and positiveness towards disbelievers. I am well ahead of you and I'm just getting started. You are cheating and posting verses that are positive towards only Muslims, not disbelievers.

If I go to quran.com and search on 'disbelievers', I will find 661 occurrances. Those verses are not positive.

There is a claim from Muslims that all these verses are about disbelievers who attacked Muslims. This is certainly not true.

The evidence is in the Quran. No opinion can erase it.

disbelievers - Qur'an Search - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2015, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,337,178 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
I read through them. Any encouragement to treat non-Muslims well was quite weak. It didn't really explicitly mention them. In some cases it could have been talking about non-Muslims but there wasn't anything that clear.
Yet, very often non-Muslims,such as myself, read the Qur'an and with no contact with Muslims, revert to Islam. Especially in the Western world were often the only contact non-Muslims have with Islam is a translation of the Qur'an.

I had not seen a Muslim for 30 or more years when I accepted Islam. But, out of fairness I admit I read it in Arabic and never read a translation until long after I had accepted Islam.

My learning Arabic began when I entered the US military in 1959


Point being, many non-Muslims do come to the conclusion the Qur'an is about peace and does foster coexistence among all people.

The Qur'an is for all people, not just Muslims. For example some Sufi are not Muslims yet read the Qur'an and are very Peaceful people.

Sufi'ism is a bit misunderstood-It is a methodology not a specific religion Some Sunni are Sufi, Some Sufi see themself as a seperate Islamic sect, some Sufi are not Muslims and more inline with Buddhism

Non-Islamic Sufi Organizations and Schools in the West
In addition to the various Islamic Sufi orders that now have centers in the West, a number of non-Islamic Sufi organizations have arisen in the West. These groups teach various Sufi doctrines and practices but -- in contrast to nearly all Sufi orders in the Muslim world -- have disconnected their teachings from Islam. Hence followers of these groups are generally not Muslims. Adherents of such schools often assert that Sufism pre-dates Islam and thus in prinicipal is universal and independent of it. The following Sufi groups and teachers have a non-Islamic view of Sufism:
Sufi Order International, formerly the Sufi Order in the West, founded by Hazrat Inayat Khan, who was succeeded by his son Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan (link fixed 22 Sept. 2005), who has recently been succeeded by his son, Pir Zia Inayat Khan. An essay in which he expresses his perspective on Sufism in contrast to the more traditional Islamic orms is The Paradox of "Universal Sufism". See the short biographies of each of the shaykhs of the Sufi Order International (the above links were fixed on August 20, 2002). Visit the Shrine of Hazrat Inayat Khan as well as the shrine ofNizam al-Din Awliya, which is in the same area in New Delhi, India. (Link fixed 5 November 2007). See as well the online collected works of Hazrat Inayat Khan (fixed 5 November 2007).
International Sufi Movement (formerly described at International Sufi Movement (link fixed 20 August, 2005)) is also derived from Inayat Khan and is headed by another of his sons, Hidayat Inayat Khan. Somewhat more detailed is the biography of Hidayat Inayat Khan. (Link fixed, November 23, 2001.)
Sufi Ruhaniat International (originally named "The Sufi Islamia Ruhaniat Society" (SIRS) was established by Murshid Samuel Lewis (1896 - 1971), a disciple of Hazrat Inayat Khan. Murshid Sam, who was particularly active in San Francisco during the height of the "hippie era," created the Dances of Universal Peace, which became popularly known as "Sufi Dancing." (Links fixed Oct. 12, 1999 and Nov. 23, 2001)
Mevlevi Order of America, founded by Jelaluddin Loras, son of the main force behind the spread of the Mevlevi Order in the West, Suleiman Hayati Dede.
Idries Shah was a Sufi teacher and prolific author who passed away in 1996 [the biographical material at the previous link was apparently much of the basis of the Obituary of Idries Shah (apparently offline October 22, 2002) published in the London Telegraph (December 7, 1996). See also the brief but illuminating remarks about Shah by Doris Lessing the well-known writer and student of Shah]. Through his writings, Idries Shah was arguably the single most important influence in popularizing Sufism (in a non-Islamic form) in the West. See the brief discussions of some of his works at ISHK Books (Fixed, October 10, 1999) and Doris Lessing's Review of Shah's book The Commanding Self (The London Times, May 5, 1994) as well Lessing's more comprehensive and hypertext linked The Sufis and Idries Shah People familiar with his work maintain the site Sufi Studies Today.
Omar Ali-Shah is a Sufi teacher and writer similar in orientation to his late brother Idries Shah. (Link fixed, February 6, 2001.)
The Golden Sufi Center was established in various cities in the U.S. and around the world in order to disseminate the teachings of the Naqshbandiya-Mujaddidiyya Sufi Order (in a non-Islamic form) as taught by Irina Tweedie and Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee.
Sufi Foundation of America (link fixed November 23, 2001, offline for a while, then online October 12, 2003) is centered in New Mexico (U.S.) and headed by Adnan Sarhan, a Sufi originally from Baghdad, who is a master of drumming and Middle Eastern dance. Healing various addictions is a major aspect of his work.
Sufism Reoriented is a non-Islamic Sufi organization that takes Meher Baba as its focus and regards him as the avatar (God in human form). This article deals with its current spiritual leader (murshida) Carol Weyland Conner, who succeeded Dr. James MacKie as the organization's head. (Written by Nivedita Sharma and online at Boloji.com, but published originally by Women's Feature Service, March 31, 2003.) David Berry, a devotee of Meher Baba, provides a "Baba lover's" view of Sufism in his article What is Sufism?.
Sufism, Sufis, and Sufi Orders: Sufism's Many Paths

All of which find Peace in the Qur'an and they are non-Muslims

.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2015, 08:10 AM
 
1,250 posts, read 714,723 times
Reputation: 1203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Yet, very often non-Muslims,such as myself, read the Qur'an and with no contact with Muslims, revert to Islam.
Same here. I, however, read a translation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2015, 08:26 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,280 times
Reputation: 435
"Two Hundred Verses about Compassionate Living in the Quran | The Muslim Times"

Muslims love to talk about the importance of context, so I was sure this writer would never drop the context of these verses. Silly me!!

2. Indeed, Allah enjoins justice, and the doing of good to others; and giving like kindred; and forbids indecency, and manifest evil, and wrongful transgression. He admonished you that you may take heed. (Al Quran 16:91)

Sounds great!! But let's look at the full context:

16:88 - 89 For those who disbelieve and debar (men) from the way of Allah, We add doom to doom because they wrought corruption. And (bethink you of) the day when We raise in every nation a witness against them of their own folk, and We bring thee (Muhammad) as a witness against these. And We reveal the Scripture unto thee as an exposition of all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).

You don't dare speak against allah! And today verses like these lead to Muslims slaughtering people who speak against Islam.

Let's look at another one:

3. And as for those who strive in Our path — We will surely guide them in Our ways. And Indeed, Allah is with those who are of service to others. (Al Quran 29:70)

Just a few verses before we see the hatred for disbelievers.

29:52 - 55 Say (to them O Muhammad SAW): "Sufficient is Allah for a witness between me and you. He knows what is in the heavens and on earth." And those who believe in Batil (all false deities other than Allah), and disbelieve in Allah and (in His Oneness), it is they who are the losers. And they ask you to hasten on the torment (for them), and had it not been for a term appointed, the torment would certainly have come to them. And surely, it will come upon them suddenly while they perceive not! They bid thee hasten on the doom, when lo! hell verily will encompass the disbelievers On the day when the doom will overwhelm them from above them and from underneath their feet, and He will say: Taste what ye used to do!

One more:

4. Indeed, Allah is with those who are righteous and those who do good. (Al Quran 16:129)

And what about disbelievers in allah? They are dealt with a few verses before:

16:112 - 113 Allah coineth a similitude: a township that dwelt secure and well content, its provision coming to it in abundance from every side, but it disbelieved in Allah's favours, so Allah made it experience the garb of dearth and fear because of what they used to do. And verily there had come unto them a messenger from among them, but they had denied him, and so the torment seized them while they were wrong-doers.

As a disbeliever, I am fed up with the hate speech and the threats against me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2015, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,337,178 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Two Hundred Verses about Compassionate Living in the Quran | The Muslim Times"

Muslims love to talk about the importance of context, so I was sure this writer would never drop the context of these verses. Silly me!!

2. Indeed, Allah enjoins justice, and the doing of good to others; and giving like kindred; and forbids indecency, and manifest evil, and wrongful transgression. He admonished you that you may take heed. (Al Quran 16:91)

Sounds great!! But let's look at the full context:

16:88 - 89 For those who disbelieve and debar (men) from the way of Allah, We add doom to doom because they wrought corruption. And (bethink you of) the day when We raise in every nation a witness against them of their own folk, and We bring thee (Muhammad) as a witness against these. And We reveal the Scripture unto thee as an exposition of all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).

You don't dare speak against allah! And today verses like these lead to Muslims slaughtering people who speak against Islam.

Let's look at another one:

3. And as for those who strive in Our path We will surely guide them in Our ways. And Indeed, Allah is with those who are of service to others. (Al Quran 29:70)

Just a few verses before we see the hatred for disbelievers.

29:52 - 55 Say (to them O Muhammad SAW): "Sufficient is Allah for a witness between me and you. He knows what is in the heavens and on earth." And those who believe in Batil (all false deities other than Allah), and disbelieve in Allah and (in His Oneness), it is they who are the losers. And they ask you to hasten on the torment (for them), and had it not been for a term appointed, the torment would certainly have come to them. And surely, it will come upon them suddenly while they perceive not! They bid thee hasten on the doom, when lo! hell verily will encompass the disbelievers On the day when the doom will overwhelm them from above them and from underneath their feet, and He will say: Taste what ye used to do!

One more:

4. Indeed, Allah is with those who are righteous and those who do good. (Al Quran 16:129)

And what about disbelievers in allah? They are dealt with a few verses before:

16:112 - 113 Allah coineth a similitude: a township that dwelt secure and well content, its provision coming to it in abundance from every side, but it disbelieved in Allah's favours, so Allah made it experience the garb of dearth and fear because of what they used to do. And verily there had come unto them a messenger from among them, but they had denied him, and so the torment seized them while they were wrong-doers.

As a disbeliever, I am fed up with the hate speech and the threats against me.

Would you expect a Ford Manual to tell you the virtues of a Chevrolet?
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2015, 09:17 AM
 
352 posts, read 309,813 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.


Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"It has nothing to do with Muslims harming non-believers. It is all about judgement day and who will spend eternity where. It is a warning as to what non-believers can expect after death. "

I think that Muslims will take note of how the god they submit to thinks of the non-Muslims and the torture this beloved god has in store for non-believers. And if that's what allah thinks non-believers deserve, well, why not help allah? There are many other verses to back up that non-believers should be hated and even harmed by Muslims.

The other point here is that allah is so full of hate for non-Muslims and plans his torture carefully. This is along the lines of Hannibal Lecter or Charles Manson.:

" for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"

This is just sickening. Beyond hateful...and THIS from a supposed creator of the universe!! And why this hate and cruelty and unimaginable torture?

Not submitting to the very monster that will do this to you if you do not submit. The good news is that this is all from the sick and hate filled mind of Muhammed and no endless torture awaits.

And it seems I am using the proper translations.



Quote:
" for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"
Many people have already entered the fire, if you will open your eye's and look around you. 'The garment of fire, I see as the soul, burning with insatiable lust.' 'The boiling water, is whiskey.' Note what it does, presently, to internal parts of the body, and how it causes the skin to shrivel/wrinkle. I can also tell you that alcoholics cannot stop drinking alcohol. So, they will be forced back into the fire. The worse is yet to come, in the hereafter.



Quote:
This is just sickening. Beyond hateful...and THIS from a supposed creator of the universe!! And why this hate and cruelty and unimaginable torture?
Yes. Ask yourself why. Why not rein-in the soul? It prompts the physical body to commit many of its horrendous acts, even after being righteously, advised by the Spirit accompanying it.


Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim
وَالشَّمْسِ وَضُحَاهَا {1}
[Yusufali 91:1] By the Sun and his (glorious) splendour;
وَالْقَمَرِ إِذَا تَلَاهَا {2}
[Yusufali 91:2] By the Moon as she follows him;
وَالنَّهَارِ إِذَا جَلَّاهَا {3}
[Yusufali 91:3] By the Day as it shows up (the Sun's) glory;
وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا يَغْشَاهَا {4}
[Yusufali 91:4] By the Night as it conceals it;
وَالسَّمَاءِ وَمَا بَنَاهَا {5}
[Yusufali 91:5] By the Firmament and its (wonderful) structure;
وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا طَحَاهَا {6}
[Yusufali 91:6] By the Earth and its (wide) expanse:
وَنَفْسٍ وَمَا سَوَّاهَا {7}
[Yusufali 91:7] By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it;
فَأَلْهَمَهَا فُجُورَهَا وَتَقْوَاهَا {8}
[Yusufali 91:8] And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;-
قَدْ أَفْلَحَ مَنْ زَكَّاهَا {9}
[Yusufali 91:9] Truly he succeeds that purifies it,
وَقَدْ خَابَ مَنْ دَسَّاهَا {10}
[Yusufali 91:10] And he fails that corrupts it!

Multilingual Quran



Wassalaam. devotee
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2015, 10:35 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,280 times
Reputation: 435
"Point being, many non-Muslims do come to the conclusion the Qur'an is about peace and does foster coexistence among all people."

And they are wrong:

"Islam has religious, legal, political, economic and military components. The religious component is a beard for all the other components.

Islamization occurs when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called 'religious rights.'

When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to 'the reasonable' Muslim demands for their 'religious rights,' they also get the other components under the table. Here's how it works (percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book (2007)).

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

United States -- Muslim 1.0%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1%-2%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris --car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam - Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:
Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

'Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel. – Leon Uris, 'The Haj'

It is good to remember that in many, many countries, such as France, the Muslim populations are centered around ghettos based on their ethnicity. Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. Therefore, they exercise more power than their national average would indicate."

FrontPage Magazine - What Islam Isn't
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2015, 10:45 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,280 times
Reputation: 435
"Would you expect a Ford Manual to tell you the virtues of a Chevrolet?"

You are the one claiming that the Quran is peaceful and speaks positively of disbelievers. In fact, the Quran spews hatred of disbelievers and tells that they will be endlessly subjected to unimaginable torture. Ford Manuals don't call for slaughter and torture and unending hatred of Chevy owners. Ford Manuals don't encourage Ford owners to take over the world by force and make everyone own a Ford....or slaughter them.

If the Quran said nothing about disbelievers at all, like Ford Manuals say nothing about Chevy owners, then we'd have a different can of worms.

Also, a Ford manual does not claim to be written by the superbeing who .... get ready for it....CREATED THE UNIVERSE and whose word is law.

As a disbeliever, I am fed up with the hate speech and the threats against me.

Last edited by juju33312; 08-10-2015 at 10:50 AM.. Reason: correct wrong word
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top