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Old 08-08-2015, 06:26 AM
 
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How much quran material speaks positively of non-Muslims?

Or speaks positively about relations with non-Muslims?
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Old 08-08-2015, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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There are degrees to positivity just like any other things.
In this case, let's take the degrees to be low, medium or high.

To the Questions;
How much Quran material speaks positively of non-Muslims?
Or speaks positively about relations with non-Muslims?

Based on my very extensive study of the Quran's 6236 verses,

Low positivity = some but overridden in all cases

Medium positivity = Zero!

High positivity = Zero!


In the early phases of Muhammad preaching he said nice things about the non-Muslims, [Jews, Christians and pagans] but when they rejected his 'false' invented doctrines, he turned around and condemned in the most vile, abominating, dehumanized manner.
In general non-Muslims are treated positively [of the lowest degrees] or rather neutrally with indifference when they are made to feel very low, and slave-like, and pay tax with a subservient attitude.

Here is a sample amongst many similar praised then condemned finally examples;


On one hand, Muhammad praised some Christians in his earlier preaching;
3:113. They [infidels] are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture [Book -Christians] there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate (before Him). [reference to monastic monks]

3:114. They [staunch Christians] believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. They [labeled proto-Muslims] are of the righteous.
But, when his was rejected, he rained the most contemptuous condemnations upon them;
57:27. Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those [proto-Muslims] who followed him. But monasticism they [infidel-Christians] invented. We ordained it not for them.

5:57. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Choose not for friends [as allies, etc.] such of those [infidels] who received the Scripture before you [Jews and Christians], and of the disbelievers [infidels], as make a jest and sport of your religion [deenakum]. But keep your duty to Allah if ye [Muslims] are true believers.

5:60. Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? Worse (is the case of him) [infidel] whom Allah hath cursed, him [Kafir] on whom His wrath hath fallen! Worse is he [infidel] of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such [infidels] are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.

Overall, the Quran is heavily anti-Non_Muslims laden with tons of evil elements, threats and dehumanizing put downs against Non-Muslims.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-08-2015 at 08:59 PM..
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Old 08-09-2015, 07:41 AM
 
1,251 posts, read 716,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But, when his was rejected
I am going to tell you something important. This part that I quoted is an ominous lie and a slander against the best person to ever walk this earth. The verses you quoted do not speak of the same jews and christians, they speak of different people and do not refer to specific people the Prophet encountered.

Read carefully now. If you keep making stuff up and slandering the Prophet, be prepared to take your place in hell. It's bad enough that you don't believe in God. Laugh it off, enjoy life as much as you can, and wait. I am waiting too, and all death is certain.
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Old 08-09-2015, 07:42 AM
 
1,251 posts, read 716,629 times
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Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
How much quran material speaks positively of non-Muslims?

Or speaks positively about relations with non-Muslims?
Why don't you buy a copy and read it.
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Old 08-09-2015, 08:29 AM
 
4,444 posts, read 1,672,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Why don't you buy a copy and read it.
No need to buy.
It's available for free from many sources. The focus should be to study the one with authentic translation.
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Old 08-09-2015, 09:23 AM
 
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GoCardinals
I often hear Muslims talk about using the authentic translation. So I try to use the authentic translation and still Muslims say I am not using an authentic translation. I ask them for the authentic translation so I can compare with what I am reading and they refuse to answer. Let me ask you.

Could you please post the authentic translation of the following verses:

Quran (22:19-21)

Quran 8:12

Quran 9:5

Quran 4:25

Quran 4:34

Thank you!
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Old 08-09-2015, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,358,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
GoCardinals
I often hear Muslims talk about using the authentic translation. So I try to use the authentic translation and still Muslims say I am not using an authentic translation. I ask them for the authentic translation so I can compare with what I am reading and they refuse to answer. Let me ask you.

Could you please post the authentic translation of the following verses:

Quran (22:19-21)

Quran 8:12

Quran 9:5

Quran 4:25

Quran 4:34

Thank you!
There are no actual translations of the Qur'an. But there are numerous interpretations some acceptably good.

In the Past Pickthal and Ali were excellent. But the English used in them has become obsolete. and the accuracy has declined.

I urge people to read at least 3 interpretations. Mohsin, Asad and either Pickthal or Ali. Between them most people will arrive at a reasonably accurate interpretation.

But even more important is to read a minimum of 9 lines if possible 4 before an ayyat the ayyat and 4 after. it Using 22:19-21 as the first example

Reading them alone:

Mohsin:
19 These two opponents (believers and disbelievers) dispute with each other about their Lord: then as for those who disbelieved, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their heads.
20 With it will melt (or vanish away) what is within their bellies, as well as (their) skins.
21 And for them are hooked rods of iron (to punish them).

22:19 (Asad) These two contrary kinds of man [24] have become engrossed in contention about their Sus*tainer! But [thus it is:] as for those who are bent on denying the truth [25] garments of fire shall be cut out for them [in the life to come]; burning despair [26] will be poured over their heads,
22:20 (Asad) causing all that is within their bodies, as well as the skins, to melt away. [27]
22:21 (Asad) And they shall be held [in this state as if] by iron grips; [28]

22:19 (Y. Ali) These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
22:20 (Y. Ali) With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
22:21 (Y. Ali) In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.

Reading that as a stand alone statement it sounds like Muslims are being told to do some pretty horrendous stuff to non-believers.

Now let us Look at it but reading Ali 22: 15-26

22:15 (Y. Ali) If any think that Allah will not help him (His Messenger. in this world and the Hereafter, let him stretch out a rope to the ceiling and cut (himself) off: then let him see whether his plan will remove that which enrages (him)!

22:16 (Y. Ali) Thus have We sent down Clear Signs; and verily Allah doth guide whom He will!

22:17 (Y. Ali) Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

22:18 (Y. Ali) Seest thou not that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as Allah shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for Allah carries out all that He wills.

22:19 (Y. Ali) These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.

22:20 (Y. Ali) With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.

22:21 (Y. Ali) In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.

22:22 (Y. Ali) Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"

22:23 (Y. Ali) Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which rivers flow: they shall be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk.

22:24 (Y. Ali) For they have been guided (in this life) to the purest of speeches; they have been guided to the Path of Him Who is Worthy of (all) Praise.

22:25 (Y. Ali) As to those who have rejected ((Allah)), and would keep back (men) from the Way of Allah, and from the Sacred Mosque, which We have made (open) to (all) men - equal is the dweller there and the visitor from the country - and any whose purpose therein is profanity or wrong-doing - them will We cause to taste of a most Grievous Penalty.
22:26 (Y. Ali) Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

It has nothing to do with Muslims harming non-believers. It is all about judgement day and who will spend eternity where. It is a warning as to what non-believers can expect after death. Also notice it is about those who actually deliberatly
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Old 08-09-2015, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,602,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
I am going to tell you something important. This part that I quoted is an ominous lie and a slander against the best person to ever walk this earth. The verses you quoted do not speak of the same jews and christians, they speak of different people and do not refer to specific people the Prophet encountered.

Read carefully now. If you keep making stuff up and slandering the Prophet, be prepared to take your place in hell. It's bad enough that you don't believe in God. Laugh it off, enjoy life as much as you can, and wait. I am waiting too, and all death is certain.
From the "Psychology of A Believer" I can understand where you are coming from. You have no other choice but to deem your Prophet as the perfect exemplar.

As a non-believer I can view the situation objectively and rationally toward the well-being of humanity.

As I mentioned the verses I quoted are merely a sample of verses,
I stated "Here is a sample amongst many similar praised then condemned finally examples"

To understand clearly how Muhammad got angrier with greater contempt against Jews, Christians and pagans one has to read [I have done that extensively] the Quran chronologically [as near as possible] where one can decipher Muhammad's psychological changes along with how Muhammad was mocked as a preacher, warner, then he tried to suppress his anger with 'patience' but subsequently blew his top in the later Medina phases as a war general.
This is the likely factual reason why Chapter 9 do not start with the "Bismillah ....." i.e. he was full of anger to the extent he could not express mercy and compassion to anyone. Scholars will give other explanations.. but in the absence of actual evidence .. what is most likely is a psychological explanation which most humans are familiar.

Quote:
Read carefully now. If you keep making stuff up and slandering the Prophet,
be prepared to take your place in hell. It's bad enough that you don't believe
in God. Laugh it off, enjoy life as much as you can, and wait. I am waiting too,
and all death is certain.
This is a manifestation of the existential dilemma from your psychology. You are being brainwashed and this is a very common threat that invokes the inherent primordial fear in a person and it is repeated in the Quran many times. The "wait" taunt is also common in the Quran.

I can tell you there are many better alternatives [spiritual and secular] to deal with this existential dilemma and its primordial fears without the exacerbated, amplified fears and the associated evil laden verses from the Quran and the martial ethos of Muhammad that catalyzed SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils around the world [the fact is glaringly evident].

I suggest you direct your attention to your own psychology and deal with it - the 'peace' you get will be total without potential side-effects.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-09-2015 at 09:50 PM..
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Old 08-09-2015, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,358,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
How much quran material speaks positively of non-Muslims?

Or speaks positively about relations with non-Muslims?
Your answer will differ depending on if a Muslim or Non-Muslim answers.

I find the Qur'an to be quite positive towards non-Muslims except for those who deliberately harm Muslims. there is nothing in the Qur'an that commands us to be aggressive towards non-Muslims.

The Quran stresses that righteousness is not in precise observance of the rituals but in acts of compassion and kindness. It says that the litmus test for true belief and genuine worship is that it leads to compassionate living:

1. It is not righteousness that you turn your faces to the East or the West, but truly righteous is he who believes in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Book and the Prophets, and spends his money for love of Him, on the kindred and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and those who ask for charity, and for ransoming the captives; and who observes Prayer and pays the Zakat; and those who fulfill their promise when they have made one, and the patient in poverty and afflictions and the steadfast in time of war; it is these who have proved truthful and it is these who are the God-fearing. (Al Quran 2:178)


Read more: Two Hundred Verses about Compassionate Living in the Quran | The Muslim Times
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Old 08-09-2015, 10:12 PM
 
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"It has nothing to do with Muslims harming non-believers. It is all about judgement day and who will spend eternity where. It is a warning as to what non-believers can expect after death. "

I think that Muslims will take note of how the god they submit to thinks of the non-Muslims and the torture this beloved god has in store for non-believers. And if that's what allah thinks non-believers deserve, well, why not help allah? There are many other verses to back up that non-believers should be hated and even harmed by Muslims.

The other point here is that allah is so full of hate for non-Muslims and plans his torture carefully. This is along the lines of Hannibal Lecter or Charles Manson.:

" for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"

This is just sickening. Beyond hateful...and THIS from a supposed creator of the universe!! And why this hate and cruelty and unimaginable torture?

Not submitting to the very monster that will do this to you if you do not submit. The good news is that this is all from the sick and hate filled mind of Muhammed and no endless torture awaits.

And it seems I am using the proper translations.

Last edited by juju33312; 08-09-2015 at 10:14 PM.. Reason: spelling
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