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Old 08-12-2015, 01:55 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Woodrow or anyone,

What is your interpretation of the following messy verse 3:72?

Messy because they stated, believe the Quran in beginning of the day and reject it at the end [of the day or whatever?]. This is apparently very messy.
النَّهَارِ وَاكْفُرُوا آخِرَهُ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ وَقَالَت طَّائِفَةٌ مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ آمِنُوا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَجْهَ
3:72 Waqalat ta-ifatun min ahli alkitabi aminoo biallathee onzila AAala allatheena amanoo wajha alnnahari waokfuroo akhirahu laAAallahum yarjiAAoona

Word for Word: And said a group of (the) People (of) the Book, "Believe in what was revealed on those who believe[d] (at the) beginning (of) the day, and reject (at) its end, perhaps they may return.

3:72 [Assad] And some of the followers of earlier revelation say [to one another]: "Declare your belief in what has been revealed unto those who believe [in Muhammad] at the beginning of the day, and deny the truth of what came later, so that they might go back [on their faith];

3:72 [Pickthall] And a party of the People of the Scripture say: Believe in that which hath been revealed unto those who believe at the opening of the day, and disbelieve at the end thereof, in order that they may return;

3:72 [Shakir ]And a party of the followers of the Book say: Avow belief in that which has been revealed to those who believe, in the first part of the day, and disbelieve at the end of it, perhaps they go back on their religion.

Do you agree with Assad's interpretation or otherwise?
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Old 08-12-2015, 09:53 AM
 
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This verse was revealed in Madina where Jews used to live. so, Jews wanted to make Islam and Muhammed look bad, then they said. let group of us believe in the Quran and In Muhammed in the morning and disbelieve in them at night. this way people would say what kind of religion is Islam! people leave it in groups and make Islam and the Muslims look bad and discourages others in considering it.

some of the followers of earlier revelation = Jews
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Nabil explained it quite well.

this discourse was revealed specifically to the Jews of Medinah. Mainly because they were Converting to Islam in name only, for the purpose of making Islam look bad.

The gist of the discourse is covered in Ayyats 67-75

3:67 (Picktall) Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.

3:68 (Picktall) Lo! those of mankind who have the best claim to Abraham are those who followed him, and this Prophet and those who believe (with him); and Allah is the Protecting Friend of the believers.

3:69 (Picktall) A party of the people of the Scripture long to make you go astray; and they make none to go astray except themselves, but they perceive not.

3:70 (Picktall) O People of the Scripture! Why disbelieve ye in the revelations of Allah, when ye (yourselves) bear witness (to the truth) ?

3:71 (Picktall) O People of the Scripture! Why confound ye truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth?

3:72 (Picktall) And a party of the People of the Scripture say: Believe in that which hath been revealed, unto those who believe at the opening of the day, and disbelieve at the end thereof, in order that they may return;

3:73 (Picktall) And believe not save in one who followeth your religion--Say (O Muhammad): Lo! the guidance is Allah's guidance--that any one is given the like of that which was given unto you or that they may argue with you in the presence of their Lord. Say (O Muhammad): Lo! the bounty is in Allah's hand. He bestoweth it on whom He will. Allah is All Embracing, All Knowing.

3:74 (Picktall) He selecteth for His mercy whom He will. Allah is of infinite bounty.

3:75 (Picktall) Among the People of the Scripture there is he who, if thou trust him with a weight of treasure, will return it to thee. And among them there is he who, if thou trust him with a piece of gold, will not return it to thee unless thou keep standing over him. That is because they say: We have no duty to the Gentiles. They speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly.

Assad's Transltion is saying essentially the same as Pickthall except Asaad is using 20th century English and not the Victorian English favored by Pickthall.

3:67 (Asad) Abraham was neither a "Jew" nor a "Christian", but was one who turned away from all that is false, having surrendered himself unto God; and he was not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him.

3:68 (Asad) Behold, the people who have the best claim to Abraham are surely those who follow him - as does this Prophet and all who believe [in him] - and God is near unto the believers.

3:69 (Asad) Some of the followers of earlier revelation would love to lead you astray: yet none do they lead astray but themselves, and perceive it not.

3:70 (Asad) O followers of earlier revelation! Why do you deny the truth of God's messages to which you yourselves bear witness? [53]

3:71 (Asad) O followers of earlier revelation! Why do you cloak the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth of which you are [so well] aware?

3:72 (Asad) And some of the followers of earlier revelation say [to one another]: "Declare your belief in what has been revealed unto those who believe [in Muhammad] at the beginning of the day, and deny the truth of what came later, [54] so that they might go back [on their faith];

3:73 (Asad) but do not [really] believe anyone who does not follow your own faith." Say: "Behold, all [true] guidance is God's guidance, consisting in one's being granted [revelation] such as you have been granted." [55] Or would they contend against you before your Sustainer? Say: "Behold, all bounty is in the hand of God; He grants it unto whom He wills: [56] for God is infinite, all-knowing,

3:74 (Asad) singling out for His grace whom He wills. And God is limitless in His great bounty."

3:75 (Asad) AND AMONG the followers of earlier revelation there is many a one who, if thou entrust him with a treasure, will [faithfully] restore it to thee; and there is among them many a one who, if thou entrust him with a tiny gold coin, will not restore it to thee unless thou keep standing over him - which is an outcome of their assertion, [57] "No blame can attach to us [for anything that we may do] with regard to these unlettered folk": and [so] they tell a lie about God, being well aware [that it is a lie]." [58]
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Old 08-12-2015, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NABILBB View Post
This verse was revealed in Madina where Jews used to live. so, Jews wanted to make Islam and Muhammed look bad, then they said. let group of us believe in the Quran and In Muhammed in the morning and disbelieve in them at night. this way people would say what kind of religion is Islam! people leave it in groups and make Islam and the Muslims look bad and discourages others in considering it.

some of the followers of earlier revelation = Jews
That the general view but I there could be other alternative views.
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Old 08-12-2015, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That the general view but I there could be other alternative views.
Possible but the discourse was addressed to the Children of Abraham(PBUH) living in Medina. If you read 67-75 or better yet the full discourse that is 64-120 which was revealed specifically for the Jews of Medinah immediatly after ayyat 32

Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #3
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Old 08-12-2015, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Nabil explained it quite well.

this discourse was revealed specifically to the Jews of Medinah. Mainly because they were Converting to Islam in name only, for the purpose of making Islam look bad.

The gist of the discourse is covered in Ayyats 67-75

3:67 (Picktall) Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.

3:68 (Picktall) Lo! those of mankind who have the best claim to Abraham are those who followed him, and this Prophet and those who believe (with him); and Allah is the Protecting Friend of the believers.

3:69 (Picktall) A party [1] of the people of the Scripture long to make you go astray; and they make none to go astray except themselves, but they perceive not.

3:70 (Picktall) O People of the Scripture! Why disbelieve ye in the revelations of Allah, when ye (yourselves) bear witness (to the truth) ?

3:71 (Picktall) O People of the Scripture! Why confound ye truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth?

3:72 (Picktall) And a party [2] of the People of the Scripture say: Believe in that which hath been revealed, unto those who believe at the opening of the day, and disbelieve at the end thereof, in order that they may return;

3:73 (Picktall) And believe not save in one who followeth your religion--Say (O Muhammad): Lo! the guidance is Allah's guidance--that any one is given the like of that which was given unto you or that they may argue with you in the presence of their Lord. Say (O Muhammad): Lo! the bounty is in Allah's hand. He bestoweth it on whom He will. Allah is All Embracing, All Knowing.

3:74 (Picktall) He selecteth for His mercy whom He will. Allah is of infinite bounty.

3:75 (Picktall) Among the People of the Scripture there is he who, if thou trust him with a weight of treasure, will return it to thee. And among them there is he who, if thou trust him with a piece of gold, will not return it to thee unless thou keep standing over him. That is because they say: We have no duty to the Gentiles. They speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly.

Assad's Transltion is saying essentially the same as Pickthall except Asaad is using 20th century English and not the Victorian English favored by Pickthall.
As I had mentioned, whilst I find the verse confusing I have a different view from the general view. I note the term 'Return' [the root somewhere in this "yarjiAAoona" ?] besides the common usage it is used more than 70++ times in reference to 'return' to Allah on Judgment Day.

IMO, my interpretation [plausible] is as follow
Verse 68 and prior reconcile the common thread between the Jewish and Christianity down to Abraham's millat.

There are two different 'party' mentioned above.
One party, i.e. party [1] long to make Muslims astray. This is confined to verse 69-71.

Verse 72 refers to Party [2] which is a different party from Party [1].
Party [2] is more amicable. Since there is a common thread between Islam and the 'millat' of Abraham, they suggest they believe in the morning and disbelieve thereof at the end of the day and hopefully that will ensure them the 'Return' to Allah.

There is no indication of threat to the Jews [or Christians] in the prior verses. As such there is no reason for them to believe then disbelieve. What I note is a certain degree of doubts that are raised into the minds and thinking about their beliefs. Thus the compromise.

Anyway, whatever the interpretation it is not that critical to my main interpretation of the main elements of the Quran and Islam.
It is just that I try to have a precise interpretation for each of the 6236 verses and this 3:72 is obviously messy on first reading.

Note [I mentioned before]: Why I picked Pickthall [despite the older English] is because it was a much earlier version [more innocent] thus is not tainted by later political and other interests as in the Assad's translation.
Pickthall's translation attempt to keep as much as possible on a word-to-word basis to the Arabic original.
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had mentioned, whilst I find the verse confusing I have a different view from the general view. I note the term 'Return' [the root somewhere in this "yarjiAAoona" ?] besides the common usage it is used more than 70++ times in reference to 'return' to Allah on Judgment Day.

IMO, my interpretation [plausible] is as follow
Verse 68 and prior reconcile the common thread between the Jewish and Christianity down to Abraham's millat.

There are two different 'party' mentioned above.
One party, i.e. party [1] long to make Muslims astray. This is confined to verse 69-71.

Verse 72 refers to Party [2] which is a different party from Party [1].
Party [2] is more amicable. Since there is a common thread between Islam and the 'millat' of Abraham, they suggest they believe in the morning and disbelieve thereof at the end of the day and hopefully that will ensure them the 'Return' to Allah.

There is no indication of threat to the Jews [or Christians] in the prior verses. As such there is no reason for them to believe then disbelieve. What I note is a certain degree of doubts that are raised into the minds and thinking about their beliefs. Thus the compromise.

Anyway, whatever the interpretation it is not that critical to my main interpretation of the main elements of the Quran and Islam.
It is just that I try to have a precise interpretation for each of the 6236 verses and this 3:72 is obviously messy on first reading.

Note [I mentioned before]: Why I picked Pickthall [despite the older English] is because it was a much earlier version [more innocent] thus is not tainted by later political and other interests as in the Assad's translation.
Pickthall's translation attempt to keep as much as possible on a word-to-word basis to the Arabic original.
Actually Pickthall having been a former Christian was attempting to make it sound like the KJV, He felt that the KJV Elizabethan English was the most religious sounding English.Although he used a modern counter part-Victorian English.

One reason I like Asad's translation is because he is not influenced by Saudi and being a former Jew he is familiar with Hebrew and can easily recognise the Hebrew counterpart of Arabic. The Arabic of the Qur'an has some strong similarities to the Torah pronunciations.

Bucking the Saudi Orthodoxy

The Message of the Qur'an. By Muhammad Asad.

Not every translation preaches the Saudi line. Muhammad Asad, for example, presents a rendering that is simple and straightforward.[48] A Jewish convert to Islam, the former Leopold Weiss (1900-1992) sought to depart from the traditional exegetic approaches and reflect independent thought. Asad, an Austrian journalist, was well-versed in the Jewish and Christian scriptures and brought this knowledge to bear in the form of erudite footnotes. Strangely, though, he chose to interpolate material in his translation of chapter 37 to show that the sacrificial son was Ishmael and not Isaac.[49] This is rather unusual, for while most contemporary Muslims opine that Ishmael was the sacrificial son, early exegetes differed on his identity, and as is well known, the Bible clearly states that it was Isaac (Genesis 22:9).[50] Indicative of the desire and drive of Saudi Arabia to impose a Salafi[51] interpretation upon the Muslim world, the kingdom has banned Muhammad's work over some creedal issues. Because the Saudi government subsidizes the publication and distribution of so many translations, the ban has in effect made Asad's translation both expensive and difficult to obtain. Nevertheless, it remains one of the best translations available, both in terms of its comprehensible English and generally knowledgeable annotations.
Assessing English Translations of the Qur'an :: Middle East Quarterly
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Old 08-20-2015, 02:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Woodrow or anyone,

What is your interpretation of the following messy verse 3:72?

Messy because they stated, believe the Quran in beginning of the day and reject it at the end [of the day or whatever?]. This is apparently very messy.

وَقَالَت طَّائِفَةٌ مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ آمِنُوا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَجْهَ
النَّهَارِ وَاكْفُرُوا آخِرَهُ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ

3:72 [Assad] And some of the followers of earlier revelation say [to one another]: "Declare your belief in what has been revealed unto those who believe [in Muhammad] at the beginning of the day, and deny the truth of what came later, so that they might go back [on their faith];

3:72 [Pickthall] And a party of the People of the Scripture say: Believe in that which hath been revealed unto those who believe at the opening of the day, and disbelieve at the end thereof, in order that they may return;

3:72 [Shakir ]And a party of the followers of the Book say: Avow belief in that which has been revealed to those who believe, in the first part of the day, and disbelieve at the end of it, perhaps they go back on their religion.

Do you agree with Assad's interpretation or otherwise?
The interpretation is according to the interpreter of the Quarn and the Bible: Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly

{[The reason for revealing the following aya:]

[Twelve Jewish priests of Khaibar and the villages of Urainah plotted, and said to each other:
"Convert to the religion of Mohammed in the morning with tongue not with true belief, then disbelieve in the end of the day, and say:
'We reviewed our books and consulted our scholars, and found that Mohammed is not any prophet, and we realized he is a liar and his religion is false';
then if you do so, his companions will doubt about his religion and will say: 'They are people having the Torah and they know about him better than we do';
so his companions will apostatize from his religion and turn to your religion."
Therefore, Gabriel came down to the Prophet and told him about that and recited to him this aya:]


3: 72. A group of the people a of the Bible say: "Believe – early in the day – in [the Quran] that has been sent down to the believers b, then – later in the day – disbelieve; that they may turn back [from the Islam to your religion.]"

3: 73. "And believe not c save in one that follows your religion [: the Judaism d.]"
Say [Mohammed to these Jews:] "The guidance [really] is [that] guidance due to God e;
that anyone f should not be given any [revelation: the Quran] like [the revelation of the Torah] that you were given g. Or they may dispute with you [if you mislead them,] before your Lord [on the Judgment Day. h]
Say [Mohammed to these Jews:]: The favor [of revealing the Quran] is [entirely] by the hand of God [not by your hands]; He gives it to whom [of His servants] He pleases [to send as a messenger or apostle]; God is Most-Bountiful i, All-Knowing. j "

3: 74. He favorably selects, with His grace [for the apostle-hood], whomever [of His servants] He please [to send as an apostle]; for God is of mighty grace. k
.................................................. ...........
a Jews.
b i.e. believe in the Quran that has been revealed to Mohammed and his companions who believed in him.
c any true belief.
d And stand by your Law.
e i.e. the Muslims who you intend to misguide away from their religion; it is God Who has guided them to the Islam, then how can you misguide anyone whom God has guided.
f of mankind.
g The meaning: how can you curtail the revelation and prevent it from the one whom God has given the Quran and he made him a prophet like the Torah that you had been given.
h So they will say to you: Why did you misguide us from the religion of Mohammed and it is the truth? Therefore, what will your answer be then, and what will your excuse be before your Lord?
i To his prophets and apostles.
j About the one who is most suitable for the message and can carry it out.
k to His prophets and those who follow them in their religion.
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Old 08-20-2015, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
The interpretation is according to the interpreter of the Quarn and the Bible: Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly

{[The reason for revealing the following aya:]

[Twelve Jewish priests of Khaibar and the villages of Urainah plotted, and said to each other:
"Convert to the religion of Mohammed in the morning with tongue not with true belief, then disbelieve in the end of the day, and say:
'We reviewed our books and consulted our scholars, and found that Mohammed is not any prophet, and we realized he is a liar and his religion is false';
then if you do so, his companions will doubt about his religion and will say: 'They are people having the Torah and they know about him better than we do';
so his companions will apostatize from his religion and turn to your religion."
Therefore, Gabriel came down to the Prophet and told him about that and recited to him this aya:]

3: 72. A group of the people a of the Bible say: "Believe early in the day in [the Quran] that has been sent down to the believers b, then later in the day disbelieve; that they may turn back [from the Islam to your religion.]"

3: 73. "And believe not c save in one that follows your religion [: the Judaism d.]"
Say [Mohammed to these Jews:] "The guidance [really] is [that] guidance due to God e;
that anyone f should not be given any [revelation: the Quran] like [the revelation of the Torah] that you were given g. Or they may dispute with you [if you mislead them,] before your Lord [on the Judgment Day. h]
Say [Mohammed to these Jews:]: The favor [of revealing the Quran] is [entirely] by the hand of God [not by your hands]; He gives it to whom [of His servants] He pleases [to send as a messenger or apostle]; God is Most-Bountiful i, All-Knowing. j "

3: 74. He favorably selects, with His grace [for the apostle-hood], whomever [of His servants] He please [to send as an apostle]; for God is of mighty grace. k
.................................................. ...........
a Jews.
b i.e. believe in the Quran that has been revealed to Mohammed and his companions who believed in him.
c any true belief.
d And stand by your Law.
e i.e. the Muslims who you intend to misguide away from their religion; it is God Who has guided them to the Islam, then how can you misguide anyone whom God has guided.
f of mankind.
g The meaning: how can you curtail the revelation and prevent it from the one whom God has given the Quran and he made him a prophet like the Torah that you had been given.
h So they will say to you: Why did you misguide us from the religion of Mohammed and it is the truth? Therefore, what will your answer be then, and what will your excuse be before your Lord?
i To his prophets and apostles.
j About the one who is most suitable for the message and can carry it out.
k to His prophets and those who follow them in their religion.
To make better sense of the verses in the Quran [claimed by Allah to be easy to read], many interpreters had interposed stories with the verses.
The one above [do have some sense] is one of those and there is no certainty Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly is right.
In many cases, different interpreters has totally different versions which all do make some sense and since that is history it is difficult to verify its truth.

My interpretation is;

There are two different 'party' mentioned above.
One party, i.e. party [1] long to make Muslims astray. This is confined to verse 3:69-71.

Verse 3:72 refers to Party [2] which is a different party from Party [1].
Party [2] is more amicable. Since there is a common thread between Islam and the 'millat' of Abraham, they suggest they believe in the morning and disbelieve thereof at the end of the day and hopefully that will ensure them the 'Return' to Allah.

Muhammad was giving examples of two parties which are wrong, so in

Verse 3:73, Muhammad said, both the above party 1 and party 2 are wrong "And believe not c save in one that follows your religion [: the Judaism d.]"
Note is not necessary Judaism since the Quran has accused it of having been corrupted by changes.
Religion in this case refer to the 'millat' of Abraham - the upright religion.

I think my interpretation is very plausible.
However, it is not a critical issue as they are merely examples of what is wrong.
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Old 08-21-2015, 03:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To make better sense of the verses in the Quran [claimed by Allah to be easy to read], many interpreters had interposed stories with the verses.
The one above [do have some sense] is one of those and there is no certainty Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly is right.
In many cases, different interpreters has totally different versions which all do make some sense and since that is history it is difficult to verify its truth.

My interpretation is;

There are two different 'party' mentioned above.
One party, i.e. party [1] long to make Muslims astray. This is confined to verse 3:69-71.

Verse 3:72 refers to Party [2] which is a different party from Party [1].
Party [2] is more amicable. Since there is a common thread between Islam and the 'millat' of Abraham, they suggest they believe in the morning and disbelieve thereof at the end of the day and hopefully that will ensure them the 'Return' to Allah.

Muhammad was giving examples of two parties which are wrong, so in

Verse 3:73, Muhammad said, both the above party 1 and party 2 are wrong "And believe not c save in one that follows your religion [: the Judaism d.]"
Note is not necessary Judaism since the Quran has accused it of having been corrupted by changes.
Religion in this case refer to the 'millat' of Abraham - the upright religion.

I think my interpretation is very plausible.
However, it is not a critical issue as they are merely examples of what is wrong.
This is a clear example how the adversary of the Quran say and claim:
It is very clear, but you want to dodge the evident truth.

The Quran is not the word of Mohammed himself, but the word of God Almighty.
This group of Jews plotted to pretend they converted (but in reality, they were not believers), so they planned to pretend to become Muslims early in the day, then at the end of the day: they said: We consulted our scholars and investigated and studied and we discovered Mohammed is not truthful and the Quran is not the word of God, but the invention of Mohammed himself.

Their purpose was to make Muslims doubt about the truthfulness of Mohammed and the Quran.
Understood?

{3: 71. People of the Bible, why do you confound the truth [about Mohammed] with [your] falsehood a, and conceal the truth [about his description written in your Books], the while you well know [that he is truthful?]}
.................................................. .......

a So that you deny his apostle-hood.

The reason for revealing the above aya:
[Some of Quraish tribesmen asked some Jews: Do you believe Mohammed is really a prophet, and is his description written in the Torah?
They said: No.
Therefore, this aya was revealed:]


The interpretation is according to Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, the late interpreter of the Quarn and the Bible.
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