U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-14-2015, 08:12 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 756,156 times
Reputation: 435

Advertisements

"Raping anyone for any reason is not in the Qur'an."

It is.

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

I hope you don't think that the women were 'asking for it'.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-14-2015, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,326,099 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Raping anyone for any reason is not in the Qur'an."

It is.

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

I hope you don't think that the women were 'asking for it'.
That is naming the women a man may sign a Nikkah with. Nothing about rape.
Under Shariah (Shariah is based upon ahadith)--Having sex with a woman you do not have a signed nikkah with can be punished by death

Keep in mind Dawud is virtually a copy of Muslim. Dawud was a student of Muslim and used basically the same ahadith, except he arrainged his compilation differently.

Muslim listed it under the "Rules of Marriage"

The full Hadith reads:


The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah)
Muslim :: Book 8 : Hadith 3433

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) sent a small army. The rest of the hadith is the same except this that he said: Except what your right hands possessout of them are lawful for you; and he did not mention" when their 'idda period comes to an end". This hadith has been reported on the authority of AbuSa'id (al-Khudri) (Allah be pleased with him) through another chain of transmitters and the words are: They took captives (women) on the day of Autas who had their husbands. They were afraid (to have sexual intercourse with them) when this verse was revealed:" And women already married except those whom you right hands posses" (iv. 24)

Abu Said al-Khudri is relating about when the Discourse "And women already married except those whom you right hands posses" was revealed. It was to become Surah 4 part of ayyat 24

4:22 (Picktall) And marry not those women whom your fathers married, except what hath already happened (of that nature) in the past. Lo! it was ever lewdness and abomination, and an evil way.

4:23 (Picktall) Forbidden unto you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your father's sisters, and your mother's sisters, and your brother's daughters and your sister's daughters, and your foster mothers, and your foster sisters, and your mothers-in-law, and your stepdaughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters) and the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins. And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together, except what hath already happened (of that nature) in the past. Lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

4:24 (Picktall) And all married women (are forbidden unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

4:25 (Picktall) And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honorably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 09:27 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 756,156 times
Reputation: 435
"Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)"

Do you think women were wanting for these Muslim men .... who attacked their village and held their husbands, fathers and sons captive...not to mention that these women were captive.....to have sex with them?? If a gang broke into your house and tied you up would your wife want to have sex with them?

The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah)
Muslim :: Book 8 : Hadith 3433

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) sent a small army. The rest of the hadith is the same except this that he said: Except what your right hands possess out of them (the captive women) are lawful for you (to have sex with) ; and he did not mention" when their 'idda period comes to an end". This hadith has been reported on the authority of AbuSa'id (al-Khudri) (Allah be pleased with him) through another chain of transmitters and the words are: They took captives (women) on the day of Autas who had their husbands. They were afraid (to have sexual intercourse with them) when this verse was revealed:" And women already married except those whom you right hands posses" (iv. 24)

Allah is giving permission for the Muslims who attacked the village to have sex with the captive women in front of their husbands.

4:24 (Picktall) And all married women (are forbidden unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. (It is OK to have sex with slave women/captive women that are married!!!) It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

4:25 (Picktall) And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. (Marry your slave women if you have no money because you don't have to spend so much on them. But you can have sex with them without marrying them, like Muhammed did! This does not address the marriage of captive women - you can sure have sex with them though! See above hadith.

"Under Shariah (Shariah is based upon ahadith)--Having sex with a woman you do not have a signed nikkah with can be punished by death"

Not if it is a captive/slave woman whom your right hand possesses. That's lawful says allah. And all Muhammed said was go ahead and ejaculate into them.

This is all clearly documented.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Erroneous on all counts.

We are not to have non-Muslims as Walli we are permitted and encourged to have them as Siddiq.

5:1 reads as:

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la tattakhithoo alyahooda waalnnasara awliyaa baAAduhum awliyao baAAdin waman yatawallahum minkum fainnahu minhum inna Allaha la yahdee alqawma alththalimeena

5:51 (Picktall) O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

Both Wali and Siddiq translate into English as friend, however a wali is a friend you trust to be your mentor in Islam and the person who will guide you in the proper practice of Islam. a friend you will select to be your leader in all things. It also translates into English as Governor, Leader, Chief, Mentor and other words. the plural os wali is awli (friends) wallahum translates as your friends. Keep in mind wali and Siddiq are different things although both translate into English as friend.


siddiq is virtually identical with the English word friend. No where does the Qur'an or Ahadith forbid us to have non-Muslims as our Siddiq.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948
Good defense however close relations are not encouraged with Jews and Christians
in the Mideast the cultural practice should not be ignored nor the scriptural
caution regarding it
Not yet. I believe you knew it somehow but did not get to the right verse earlier. Here are the facts.

Generally Muslims are to keep a distance from non-Muslims with a very STERN attitude and to the extreme of dehumanizing infidels like a piece of 'sh:t.' Note [mine],
54. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Whoso of you [Muslims] becometh a renegade [apostate] from his religion [deenihi], (know that in his stead) Allah will bring* a people [Muslims] whom He loveth and who love Him, humble toward believers, stern toward disbelievers [infidels], striving in the way of Allah and fearing not the blame of any blamer. Such is the grace of Allah which He giveth unto whom He will. Allah is All Embracing, All Knowing.

"awli" "wali" refer loosely to friends, e.g. allies, partners, and general friends in whatever form.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
No where does the Qur'an or Ahadith forbid us to have non-Muslims as our Siddiq.
Either you don't know your Quran thoroughly or you are pretending to be ignorant of the following verse and those of the likes in perspective of the whole context of the Quran.
3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends] others [infidels] than your own folk [Muslims], who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper you [Muslims]. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations if ye will understand.
Intimate | Define Intimate at Dictionary.com
1. associated in close personal relations: an intimate friend.
2. characterized by or involving warm friendship or a personally close or familiar association or feeling: an intimate greeting.
3. very private; closely personal: one's intimate affairs.

Woodrow, I am getting a better and better grasp as I continue to read and research more of the Quran, so don't try to pull wools or use rhetoric to deflect the facts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 09:33 PM
 
Location: LA, CA/ In This Time and Place
5,437 posts, read 3,519,008 times
Reputation: 5063
Yes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,326,099 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Not yet. I believe you knew it somehow but did not get to the right verse earlier. Here are the facts.

Generally Muslims are to keep a distance from non-Muslims with a very STERN attitude and to the extreme of dehumanizing infidels like a piece of 'sh:t.' Note [mine],
54. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Whoso of you [Muslims] becometh a renegade [apostate] from his religion [deenihi], (know that in his stead) Allah will bring* a people [Muslims] whom He loveth and who love Him, humble toward believers, stern toward disbelievers [infidels], striving in the way of Allah and fearing not the blame of any blamer. Such is the grace of Allah which He giveth unto whom He will. Allah is All Embracing, All Knowing.

"awli" "wali" refer loosely to friends, e.g. allies, partners, and general friends in whatever form.


Either you don't know your Quran thoroughly or you are pretending to be ignorant of the following verse and those of the likes in perspective of the whole context of the Quran.
3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends] others [infidels] than your own folk [Muslims], who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper you [Muslims]. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations if ye will understand.
Intimate | Define Intimate at Dictionary.com
1. associated in close personal relations: an intimate friend.
2. characterized by or involving warm friendship or a personally close or familiar association or feeling: an intimate greeting.
3. very private; closely personal: one's intimate affairs.

Woodrow, I am getting a better and better grasp as I continue to read and research more of the Quran, so don't try to pull wools or use rhetoric to deflect the facts.
I really have no concern as to what you or anyone else believe.

I state things as I find reason to believe and do not rely on any single source of verification.

But I do find many non-Muslims seem to try to tell Muslims what they believe. We are not clones or replicas of each other. No one can relate the believes of all Muslims to the believes of all Muslims or even how any Muslim interprets the Qur'an, Hadith and Madhabs. The Madhabs exist to prevent chaos as we are individuals

I have been reading and speking Arabic for over 55 years and while I am not grammatically proficient, I have read quite a bit of Arabic literature and have never seen Wali used in the same sense Saddiq is. Saddiq is virtually identical to the English Friend. Wali is much more in the concept of leader, protector or mentor. It is also the title given to Government leaders.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 08-14-2015 at 10:23 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I really have no concern as to what you or anyone else believe.

I state things as I find reason to believe and do not rely on any single source of verification.

But I do find many non-Muslims seem to try to tell Muslims what they believe. We are not clones of replicas of each other. No one can relate the believes of all Muslims to the believes of all Muslims or even how any Muslim interprets the Qur'an, Hadith and Madhabs. The Madhabs exist to prevent chaos as we are individuals

I have been reading and speaking Arabic for over 55 years and while I am not grammatically proficient, I have read quite a bit of Arabic literature and have never seen Wali used in the same sense Saddiq is. Saddiq is virtually identical to the English Friend. Wali is much more in the concept of leader, protector or mentor. It is also the title given to Government leaders.
Not sure what your complain is about. I was discussing Facts.

Note 3:118 did not refer to 'wali' but it is specific that Muslims cannot take non-Muslims as intimate friends.
Thus with the other 28 verses related to friends, a non-Muslim cannot take a non-Muslims as 'friends' of whatever nature.

Btw, the Quran is not only restricted Muslims to be unfriendly to non-Muslims but emphasis even if the Muslims' kins, parents, siblings, relatives are to be treated as 'enemies' or to be wary of for merely that they are non-Muslims. Here is one verse amongst the many, [mine]

58:22. Thou wilt not find folk [Muslims] who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving those [infidels] who oppose Allah and His messenger: even though they [infidels] be their fathers or, their sons or their brethren or their clan.
As for such, He [Allah] hath written faith upon their [Muslims] hearts and hath strengthened them [Muslims] with a Spirit from Him, and He will bring them [Muslims] into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide. Allah is well pleased with them [Muslims], and they [Muslims] are well pleased with Him. They [Muslims] are Allah's party. Lo! is it not Allah's party [the Muslims] who are the successful?

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-15-2015, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,326,099 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Not sure what your complain is about. I was discussing Facts.

Note 3:118 did not refer to 'wali' but it is specific that Muslims cannot take non-Muslims as intimate friends.
Thus with the other 28 verses related to friends, a non-Muslim cannot take a non-Muslims as 'friends' of whatever nature.

Btw, the Quran is not only restricted Muslims to be unfriendly to non-Muslims but emphasis even if the Muslims' kins, parents, siblings, relatives are to be treated as 'enemies' or to be wary of for merely that they are non-Muslims. Here is one verse amongst the many, [mine]
58:22. Thou wilt not find folk [Muslims] who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving those [infidels] who oppose Allah and His messenger: even though they [infidels] be their fathers or, their sons or their brethren or their clan.
As for such, He [Allah] hath written faith upon their [Muslims] hearts and hath strengthened them [Muslims] with a Spirit from Him, and He will bring them [Muslims] into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide. Allah is well pleased with them [Muslims], and they [Muslims] are well pleased with Him. They [Muslims] are Allah's party. Lo! is it not Allah's party [the Muslims] who are the successful?

What you said:

Quote:
Note 3:118 did not refer to 'wali' but it is specific that Muslims cannot take non-Muslims as intimate friends.
Thus with the other 28 verses related to friends, a non-Muslim cannot take a non-Muslims as 'friends' of whatever nature.
People will have very few intimate friends in their life time. Once a person has as much as one intimate friend it becomes difficult to remain true to that friend if you take on an additional intimate friend. Loyalty conflicts are almost certain to occur.

Pickthall designated 38 verse mentioning some variation of Friend/Friendship not a one forbids Muslims to have a non-Muslim as a Saddiq (Friend)

It should be noted Muhammad(saws) had non-Muslim friends. In fact virtually all of his companions were non-Muslim friends of his before they accepted Islam. At the time of Muhammad(saws)'s death there were no people older than 23 that had been born into a Muslim family. The first relavation of the Qur'an was received 23 years before the death of Muhammad(saws) and the Qur'an was not completed until very shortly before his death.

Also notice a Muslim man is permitted to marry a non-Muslim woman (Jew, Christian or Sabeean) and she is not required to convert. It should be save to assume the man will at least be friends with her, even though she is not Muslim.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 08-15-2015 at 10:38 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-15-2015, 11:45 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,774 posts, read 74,760,919 times
Reputation: 48310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I really have no concern as to what you or anyone else believe.

I state things as I find reason to believe and do not rely on any single source of verification.

But I do find many non-Muslims seem to try to tell Muslims what they believe. We are not clones or replicas of each other. No one can relate the believes of all Muslims to the believes of all Muslims or even how any Muslim interprets the Qur'an, Hadith and Madhabs. The Madhabs exist to prevent chaos as we are individuals

I have been reading and speking Arabic for over 55 years and while I am not grammatically proficient, I have read quite a bit of Arabic literature and have never seen Wali used in the same sense Saddiq is. Saddiq is virtually identical to the English Friend. Wali is much more in the concept of leader, protector or mentor. It is also the title given to Government leaders.
I do not fully understand your reasoning friend
But want to
You say Nikka is the path for sexual Union for Muslims
You say Isis and Baku haram are committing crimes
But the Quran sanctions slavery and rape if it takes place in the context of spoils of war and this is the Quran defense of both groups
As to non Muslims marrying Muslims the Quran dissuades and discourages close ties with Jews and Christians
I have already given you the Quran citations to these issues but you say I must have read bad translations? How could you so quickly dismiss the authors both of which have great credentials and I have not even yet mentioned
I realize I lack your rich background but have read the Quran twice all of it in 2 different English versions please give me credit that the quoted citations I gave you are in the book before my eyes
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-15-2015, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,326,099 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
I do not fully understand your reasoning friend
But want to
You say Nikka is the path for sexual Union for Muslims
You say Isis and Baku haram are committing crimes
But the Quran sanctions slavery and rape if it takes place in the context of spoils of war and this is the Quran defense of both groups
As to non Muslims marrying Muslims the Quran dissuades and discourages close ties with Jews and Christians
I have already given you the Quran citations to these issues but you say I must have read bad translations? How could you so quickly dismiss the authors both of which have great credentials and I have not even yet mentioned
I realize I lack your rich background but have read the Quran twice all of it in 2 different English versions please give me credit that the quoted citations I gave you are in the book before my eyes
I an not doubting what you find. However even Pickthal stated the
Qur'an is impossible to translte and all he could do is write his interpretation.

At it's time Pickthall's "The Meaning of the Glorious Koran" was the best interpretation of the Qur'an ever written in English. It is still very good but requires knowledge of Elizabethan and Victorian English. A number of the words in it no longer have the same meaning they had over 100 years ago.

Under Sharia Sexual relations are illegal with anyone you do not have a signed Nikkah with. In Islam there is no actual Marriage ceremony, No clergy is required, Instead it is the agreement upon a civil contract. The Qur'an does specifestablish the minimum criteria required for a Nikkah, but the groom and bride and families of both parties can add additional clauses as they desire.

Once all parties agree upon the Nikkah and it is signed and witnessed by a minimum of 4 witnesses 2 chosen by the bride and 2 chosen by the groom they are permitted to live as Husband and wife.

They are required to announce they signed a Nikkah to the entire community. Typically this is done at a big bash (The Walimah) which many non-Muslims assume is a Muslim wedding. However by the time the Walimah takes place they have already been living together.

Some info about the very minimum requirements of a Nikkah.

In Islam, what are the basic requirements for the Nikah? - Quora

More Info

An-Nikah: The marriage covenant | SoundVision.com

.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top