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Old 08-31-2015, 01:24 PM
 
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1.15 The similar size and distance of the sun and moon
The Qur'an has statements about the end of the world that are much as one would expect if the author believed the sun and moon to be of similar size and a similar distance from Earth.

(And the moon darkens And the sun and the moon are joined.)
Qur'an 75:8-9


Answer:
I'm very much astonished; where is anything in the aya which says "similar size and distance of the sun and moon"??
so this is the explanation of the aya 75:8-9 by the late Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, the interpreter of the Quran and the Bible:
{8. And the moon is cleft [into two halves.] b

9. And the sun and moon are joined together c.}
.................................................. ..........................
b i.e. the affliction that will befall the moon and divide it into two halves.
c That is because of the finishing of the earth gravity, at that time the sun will draw it to itself and the moon will stick to it, then Doomsday occur, the solar system including the earth will tear up, so the living beings will die and souls will scatter in the space; so at that time …

So such manifestation of the binary fission of the Moon into two halves, then its attraction by the sun which will swallow it; all these will be some of the portents of Doomsday, i.e. heralding the coming of Doomsday.

The Universe and the Quran 4

While about the distance and the size of either of the sun and moon; it is only manifested in the eclipse of moon and sun, so that the moon will cover the disc of the sun, and the earth will cover the disc of the moon, and this indeed is a divine miracle indicating the might and wisdom of God, so that the distances and the sizes of sun, earth and moon are related to each other and such ratio will bring about such phenomenon as the eclipse of the moon and the sun. Although the sun is much much bigger than earth, and earth is much bigger also than moon.
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Old 08-31-2015, 02:05 PM
 
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1.16 Sky is a Tent/Dome
A common myth at the time of the Quran's composition was that the sky or heavens were held up with pillars. Many Bedouin people living in Arabia imagined the sky as a large tent covering, similar to the tents they used. The author repeats this myth by describing the sky as being "raised" above the earth.

(It is He Who made the Earth a couch for you, and the sky a dome.)
Qur'an 2:22
(Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see.)
Qur'an 13:2
In another verse, the author says that the sky has a covering.

(And when the heaven has its covering removed.)
Qur'an 81:11


Answer:
The ayat that are Mutashabihat or ambiguous, which even Muslims do not know their exact meaning; so such atheists and Quran adversaries go to such ayat for two purposes:
1- To bar people from God's religion, by saying to them, that such ayat cannot be any revelation from God, but are the words invented by Mohammed himself.
2- To try to interpret such ayat, while none but God alone knows their implications.

Once again we come here to declare that the sky or heaven here means the gaseous layers of the high atmosphere, above the region of the cloud, because the cloud and the wind belong to the troposphere in which the air gases are in mixture, while above the cloud the atmosphere is calm and there is not wind to mix its gases (therefore, jet airplanes prefer to go to this region above the cloud where it is steady and no wind is there in the stratosphere.

So the harmful gases: poisonous and suffocating: God made such gases light in weight and so they raised up in the atmosphere and that's why God said they are like the tent but without pillars that people can see (and they may discover them later on.)
The Universe and the Quran


Now, here is the explanation of the ayat mentioned by the atheist, and the interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly:

Qur'an 2:22
{ [God] Who made, for you, the earth covered [with an earthy layer suitable for cultivation and dwelling], and [made] the sky built a [as gaseous layers packed one above another.]}
.................................................. ....................
a The "building" is the packing, and the "sky" is the gaseous layers.
It means: He raised the gaseous layers one above another; because He made the suffocating gases light in weight so they went up, and made the useful gases heavy so they became low.


Qur'an 13:2
{2. God it is Who raised up the [gaseous d] heavens without any pillars e, about which you may have knowledge [in the future] f}
.................................................. .........................
d Such gases that are harmful to man.
e Because He made the [gases] light in weight so they rose up from the earth lest people should perish because of their suffocating and poisoning gases.
f The Arabic word in the aya means the knowledge.

The ‘heavens’ here means the atmosphere of the earth, and they are seven gaseous layers, so they are mentioned here in plural, while they are mentioned in singular in the Quran 55: 7, which means:
(And the firmament has He raised high, and He has brought down the Law [of justice included in the heavenly scriptures.])


81:11
{11. And when the heaven shall be stripped off [the earth.] m}
.................................................. .....................
m i.e. disjoined or separated from it.
The interpreter have previously said that the material is the mold of the ethereal; so that inside every material object, an identical ethereal skeleton will form inside it, which will be a true copy of it, but only that the first one is material and the second one is ethereal. Moreover, the material will tear up and disappear, while the ethereal will remain preserving its shape and it will not tear up neither will vanish forever.
Therefore, when the earth tears up, a new ethereal layer will separate from it which will be the issue of the earth, and this new layer will raise up to join the seven ethereal heavens to be eight ethereal heavens.
http://www.quran-ayat.com/universe/i...hereal_Heavens

The indication of this is His saying – be glorified – in the Quran 69: 17, which means:
(And above the [souls] on that Day [of Doom] will eight [ethereal heavens] bear the Throne of your Lord.)
While now, seven heavens bear it; as in His saying – be glorified – in the Quran 23: 86, which means:
(Say: "Who is the Lord of the seven [ethereal] heavens, and the Lord of the Throne [of Glory] Supreme?")

However, these ayat have been explained in details in the book: The Universe and the Quran
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Old 09-02-2015, 02:12 AM
 
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74:32. Nay, by the Moon
74:33. And the night when it [the moon] withdraweth
74:34. And the dawn when it [ the moon] shineth forth.
74:35. Lo! This is one of the greatest (portents)


The above seem to contradict the general facts of Science.
There is no way the moon in general will shine forth from dawn onwards.

What is the Muslims explanation for the above?
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Old 09-02-2015, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
74:32. Nay, by the Moon
74:33. And the night when it [the moon] withdraweth
74:34. And the dawn when it [ the moon] shineth forth.
74:35. Lo! This is one of the greatest (portents)


The above seem to contradict the general facts of Science.
There is no way the moon in general will shine forth from dawn onwards.

What is the Muslims explanation for the above?
First thing that needs to be understood is the purpose of the Surah

Like many Surah parts were revealed in Mecca and other parts were revealed in Madinah. The first 7 ayyats were either the first ayyats revealed to Muhammad or very close to being so.

O thou enveloped in thy cloak, - 74:1 (Picktall)
Arise and warn! - 74:2 (Picktall)
Thy Lord magnify, - 74:3 (Picktall)
Thy raiment purify, - 74:4 (Picktall)
Pollution shun! - 74:5 (Picktall)
And show not favor, seeking worldly gain! - 74:6 (Picktall)
For the sake of thy Lord, be patient! - 74:7 (Picktall)




Basically we have the same thing except worded in accordance with the comprehension of the specific audience. The full discourse containg ayyats in your quote are contained in 27-48. Basically the same thing told specifically to Muhammad(saws) in 1-7 but worded in a manner the people of Medinah would comprehend.

A wake up call and a warning.

The whole pupose is to convey a single message. That message being "There is only one God(swt) and only He are we to worship." this is told in a vast multitue of ways in every Surah. People seem to work to hard and try to find more in the Qur'an yhan what it's purpose is.

As to how to practice Islam one needs to study the madhabs
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Old 09-02-2015, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
First thing that needs to be understood is the purpose of the Surah

Like many Surah parts were revealed in Mecca and other parts were revealed in Madinah. The first 7 ayyats were either the first ayyats revealed to Muhammad or very close to being so.

O thou enveloped in thy cloak, - 74:1 (Picktall)
Arise and warn! - 74:2 (Picktall)
Thy Lord magnify, - 74:3 (Picktall)
Thy raiment purify, - 74:4 (Picktall)
Pollution shun! - 74:5 (Picktall)
And show not favor, seeking worldly gain! - 74:6 (Picktall)
For the sake of thy Lord, be patient! - 74:7 (Picktall)

Basically we have the same thing except worded in accordance with the comprehension of the specific audience. The full discourse containg ayyats in your quote are contained in 27-48. Basically the same thing told specifically to Muhammad(saws) in 1-7 but worded in a manner the people of Medinah would comprehend.

A wake up call and a warning.

The whole pupose is to convey a single message. That message being "There is only one God(swt) and only He are we to worship." this is told in a vast multitue of ways in every Surah. People seem to work to hard and try to find more in the Qur'an yhan what it's purpose is.

As to how to practice Islam one needs to study the madhabs
Quote:
Basically we have the same thing except worded in accordance with the
comprehension of the specific audience. The full discourse containg ayyats in
your quote are contained in 27-48. Basically the same thing told specifically to
Muhammad(saws) in 1-7 but worded in a manner the people of Medinah would
comprehend.
I can understand why you are using such deflections on the very psychological, emotional and subjective basis that you are willing to sacrifice the truth.

Objectively;
The general and common sense knowledge of the Moon is so obvious. The activities of the Moon is so basic to the extent there is no room to lie about such of it properties.
This is like twisting the common truths into a lie.
This is insulting the basic intelligence of that specific audience. It is impossible for the Arabs then to be SO ignorant.

Worse is when SOME Muslim claimed the Quran is SO scientific!

Personally I think the original message of meant or was referring to the Sun and not the Moon.

Which ever way, this point demonstrated,
1. The Quran twisted the truth, lying or
2. The Quran is not the true one and thus corrupted by men in this case, thus elsewhere.
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Old 09-02-2015, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I can understand why you are using such deflections on the very psychological, emotional and subjective basis that you are willing to sacrifice the truth.

Objectively;
The general and common sense knowledge of the Moon is so obvious. The activities of the Moon is so basic to the extent there is no room to lie about such of it properties.
This is like twisting the common truths into a lie.
This is insulting the basic intelligence of that specific audience. It is impossible for the Arabs then to be SO ignorant.

Worse is when SOME Muslim claimed the Quran is SO scientific!

Personally I think the original message of meant or was referring to the Sun and not the Moon.

Which ever way, this point demonstrated,
1. The Quran twisted the truth, lying or
2. The Quran is not the true one and thus corrupted by men in this case, thus elsewhere.
or
3. It is not a science book meant to teach science. It is meant to give a lesson in terms the people can understand.

Sort of like when a physics class uses water as an analogy for electricity.

the message of the Qur'an is very simple. If a person can not comprehend it in one surah they probably can in one of the other 113.

Some people try to look at the Qur'an as a text book for all things. I look at it as a message that there is only one God(swt) and only He is to be worshiped. Every thing else is explanations of why. The Madhabs are the instruction manuals on how to practice Islam
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Old 09-02-2015, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
or
3. It is not a science book meant to teach science. It is meant to give a lesson in terms the people can understand.

Sort of like when a physics class uses water as an analogy for electricity.

the message of the Qur'an is very simple. If a person can not comprehend it in one surah they probably can in one of the other 113.

Some people try to look at the Qur'an as a text book for all things. I look at it as a message that there is only one God(swt) and only He is to be worshiped. Every thing else is explanations of why. The Madhabs are the instruction manuals on how to practice Islam
OK, OK, OK, but .......
How can such basic error ever appear as God's word if a supposedly omniscient God ever exists,

74:32. Nay, by the Moon
74:33. And the night when it [the moon] withdraweth
74:34. And the dawn when it [ the moon] shineth forth.
74:35. Lo! This is one of the greatest (portents)


And that is claimed to be the greatest portents?
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Old 09-03-2015, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
OK, OK, OK, but .......
How can such basic error ever appear as God's word if a supposedly omniscient God ever exists,

74:32. Nay, by the Moon
74:33. And the night when it [the moon] withdraweth
74:34. And the dawn when it [ the moon] shineth forth.
74:35. Lo! This is one of the greatest (portents)


And that is claimed to be the greatest portents?
Several things.

1. We humans are not omniscient

2. To be understandable the Qur'an is written for the lowest common denominator--For example most newspapers are written at the 6th grade level.

3. The metaphorical symbolism relating to the Sun and Moon in many cultures may be being taken into consideration.

4. 34 and 35 might not be relating to the moon. That is an assumption of some Translators, not all add it in. As the surat is essentialy a warning of Judgement day they could be referring to that. I am not positive, but it is my impression I am understanding them as meaning--When night ends and and the dawn begins---ie Judgement day begins.

34 and 35 do seem to makes more sense without the the addition of (moon) by some translators. Just my opinion Astagfirullah (May Allah forgive me if I am wrong)
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Old 09-03-2015, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Several things.

1. We humans are not omniscient

2. To be understandable the Qur'an is written for the lowest common denominator--For example most newspapers are written at the 6th grade level.

3. The metaphorical symbolism relating to the Sun and Moon in many cultures may be being taken into consideration.

4. 34 and 35 might not be relating to the moon. That is an assumption of some Translators, not all add it in. As the surat is essentialy a warning of Judgement day they could be referring to that. I am not positive, but it is my impression I am understanding them as meaning--When night ends and and the dawn begins---ie Judgement day begins.

34 and 35 do seem to makes more sense without the the addition of (moon) by some translators. Just my opinion Astagfirullah (May Allah forgive me if I am wrong)
There are a lot of allegorical and metaphorical representations in the Quran and they do make sense despite the fictional aspect of it. However no matter how fictional it is, a proposition cannot be a contradiction, in this case to common knowledge. It is almost like claiming a circle is a square.

Note the following verse which insist on common public knowledge and common sense, i.e. the Sun cannot come up from the West.
2:258. Bethink thee of him [Nimrod?] who had an argument with Abraham about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom; how, when Abraham said: My Lord is He who giveth life and causeth death, he [Nimrod?] answered: I give life and cause death.
Abraham said: Lo! Allah causeth the sun to rise in the East, so do thou cause it to come up from the West.
Thus was the disbeliever [infidels] abashed. And Allah guideth not wrong doing folk [infidels].

Similarly, the moon cannot shine from dawn onwards and set at night!

7:32-33 is a very bad error.
Since God is infallible, the Quran cannot be the words of God.

To be correct, 7:32 should refer the 'Sun'.
It is more appropriate to claim a mistake of a word rather than two verses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
but it is my impression I am understanding them as meaning--When night ends and and the dawn begins---ie Judgement day begins.
I understand your desperation to deflect and to make sense of out an obvious error.
Your above meaning is Wrong.

The Quran claim in many verses the glaring activities and significance of day and night as portents.
2:164. Lo! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of night and day, and ... ... <snip>:
are signs (of Allah's sovereignty) for people [Muslims] who have sense.

Similarly, verse 74:32-35 is supposed to display the portents or signs of the Power of God like 2:164 and other similar verses.

Since 74:32-35 is a VERY BAD ERROR, it squashed the Quran's claim of Perfection and no contradiction.
(note there are many other errors, contradictions and absurdities in the Quran outside the sphere of acceptable allegory and the metaphorical]
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Old 09-03-2015, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are a lot of allegorical and metaphorical representations in the Quran and they do make sense despite the fictional aspect of it. However no matter how fictional it is, a proposition cannot be a contradiction, in this case to common knowledge. It is almost like claiming a circle is a square.

Note the following verse which insist on common public knowledge and common sense, i.e. the Sun cannot come up from the West.
2:258. Bethink thee of him [Nimrod?] who had an argument with Abraham about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom; how, when Abraham said: My Lord is He who giveth life and causeth death, he [Nimrod?] answered: I give life and cause death.
Abraham said: Lo! Allah causeth the sun to rise in the East, so do thou cause it to come up from the West.
Thus was the disbeliever [infidels] abashed. And Allah guideth not wrong doing folk [infidels].

Similarly, the moon cannot shine from dawn onwards and set at night!

7:32-33 is a very bad error.
Since God is infallible, the Quran cannot be the words of God.

To be correct, 7:32 should refer the 'Sun'.
It is more appropriate to claim a mistake of a word rather than two verses.



I understand your desperation to deflect and to make sense of out an obvious error.
Your above meaning is Wrong.

The Quran claim in many verses the glaring activities and significance of day and night as portents.
2:164. Lo! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of night and day, and ... ... <snip>:
are signs (of Allah's sovereignty) for people [Muslims] who have sense.

Similarly, verse 74:32-35 is supposed to display the portents or signs of the Power of God like 2:164 and other similar verses.

Since 74:32-35 is a VERY BAD ERROR, it squashed the Quran's claim of Perfection and no contradiction.
(note there are many other errors, contradictions and absurdities in the Quran outside the sphere of acceptable allegory and the metaphorical]
Ref:2:258. Bethink thee of him [Nimrod?] who had an argument with Abraham about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom; how, when Abraham said: My Lord is He who giveth life and causeth death, he [Nimrod?] answered: I give life and cause death.
Abraham said: Lo! Allah causeth the sun to rise in the East, so do thou cause it to come up from the West.
Thus was the disbeliever [infidels] abashed. And Allah guideth not wrong doing folk [infidels].

Abraham was challenging some one (Possibly Nimrod) if he could cause the Sun to rise from the West (in defiance of Allaah)


One of the final major signs of Judgement Day will be the Sun rising from the West.

When Allaah(swt) causes that to happen, we will know Judgement day has begun. Interesting thing about the Arabic word Youm which is usually translated into English as Day, it also means "an unspecified period of time."
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