U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-03-2015, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,589,410 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Ref:2:258. Bethink thee of him [Nimrod?] who had an argument with Abraham about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom; how, when Abraham said: My Lord is He who giveth life and causeth death, he [Nimrod?] answered: I give life and cause death.
Abraham said: Lo! Allah causeth the sun to rise in the East, so do thou cause it to come up from the West.
Thus was the disbeliever [infidels] abashed. And Allah guideth not wrong doing folk [infidels].

Abraham was challenging some one (Possibly Nimrod) if he could cause the Sun to rise from the West (in defiance of Allaah)
That was my point.
It was a question of knowledge [even with the word 'cause'], not a physical challenge.
It would be stupid of Nimrod[?] to agree for the Sun to rise from the West.

Similarly it would be stupid in that circumstance to claim the Moon 'shine' from dawn onwards and set at night.


Quote:
One of the final major signs of Judgement Day will be the Sun rising from the West.

When Allaah(swt) causes that to happen, we will know Judgement day has begun. Interesting thing about the Arabic word Youm which is usually translated into English as Day, it also means "an unspecified period of time."
In the case of Judgment Day, that is definitely metaphorical to represent some specific phase of time and has nothing to do with the normal term 'day.'


7:32-33 is a very bad error.
If you said the Quran was written to cater for the lowest common denominator of understanding, it cause more harm and confusion than good especially to the lesser educated.

Thus it is more plausible the Quran was authored by human[s] than by an infallible omniscient and omnipotent God.
The Quran was authored by human[s] to deal with an existential psychological issue and other personal interests of the authors and compilers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-04-2015, 04:52 AM
 
99 posts, read 54,374 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
74:32. Nay, by the Moon
74:33. And the night when it [the moon] withdraweth
74:34. And the dawn when it [ the moon] shineth forth.
74:35. Lo! This is one of the greatest (portents)


The above seem to contradict the general facts of Science.
There is no way the moon in general will shine forth from dawn onwards.

What is the Muslims explanation for the above?
These ayat are among the 'Mutashabihat" i.e. the ambiguos or mysterious ayat, the exact meaning of which is unknown even to Muslims, in the past and even at the present, so that even the Prophet himself did not know that, and when was asked, he said: "I don't know their implication or meaning; I heard them from the angel as such."

Then when you go to the meaning written by the translators, how will the translator know its meaning and implication? he of course will refer to the available commentary and explanation, which is defective and not correct; therefore, you then come to these ayat and say they are wrong and include flaw!

Also Jesus Christ said: " I can't tell you many things now, because you will not understand anything of that; but when the (spirit of truth) will come, he will tell you and explain to you" as in the Gospel of John.

God promised in the Quran to explain these ambiguous ayat, by inspiring one of his servants, to be a miracle of the Quran, and a miracle of the interpreter himself, because none knows their meaning but only God; and it will be a testimony to the truthfulness of Prophet Mohammed; because he did not know their implication but he said it as he heard it from the angel.

Now this is the interpretation of these ayat 74:33-35 :by the late inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, who did not graduate at any school, even he did not learn the first year of primary school, but merely he learnt reading and writing Arabic at a local public teacher, while scholars who spent tens of years of their life studying and learning but they did not attain to know the exact meaning of such ayat:

Quran 74:32-35
{[Then God – be glorified – said:]
32. No, [they cannot get rid of the chastisement; I swear] by the moon [when it will divide into two halves! a]

33. And [by] the night b when it will retire [from you, and will never return to you!]

34. And [by] the morning when it will shine forth c!

35. [That] surely [Saqar] is one of the greatest [suns.] d}
.................................................. .......................
a This is an oath of threatening by the chastisement when Doomsday will approach.

b Which is the last one of the earth nights, which will last one thousand of our years.
Similar to this aya, is His saying – be glorified – in the Quran 91: 4, which means:
(And [by] the [everlasting] night, when it shall [with its darkness] enshroud that [region of the earth! When there will be no moon, no sun and the water will freeze; so people will die from coldness and hunger.])
And God – be glorified – said in the Quran 93: 2, which means:
(And [by] the night when it shall be quiet and everlasting!)
Moreover, God – be glorified – said in the Quran 89: 4, which means:
(And by the night when it will spread [like an infection, from one planet to another: from Mercury to Venus to the Earth and to Mars.])
In addition, God – be glorified – said in the Quran 92: 1, which means:
([I swear] by the night, when it shall enshroud [that region of the earth]!)
So all these ayat are preceded by the word إذا i.e. if, which indicates the future, and all of them include description of Doomsday and what changes will occur in the universe.
This is confirmed by His saying – be glorified – in the next aya:

c The meaning: when its light will appear, and its sun will shine, and the night will not come to you once again, then what will you do, and in what direction will you go, and run away from the severe sun heat; which is the last one of the earth days, which will last one thousand of our years.
This will happen when the earth will stop its axial rotation, so that the night will be perpetual on one of its two sides till Doomsday; and the day will be perpetual in the other side till Doomsday.

d i.e. that it is one of the large volume suns, so how can they get rid of its gravity and escape its heat?
And this in fact is the conclusion of the swear clause [that has passed in the previous ayat.]

http://www.quran-ayat.com/universe/n..._of_the_Earth_

Last edited by roar; 09-04-2015 at 05:04 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2015, 05:11 AM
 
99 posts, read 54,374 times
Reputation: 13
The swear of God Himself in the Quran

And if anyone wants to know about the oath or swearing that God Himself swears in the Quran
It is a swearing of threatening and warning: the implication is that God tells the disbelievers that He will do to them such and such if they do not believe in His oneness and in His messenger.
So He will do to them affliction with punishment like He punished the past nations who disbelieved their apostles and so He terminated them: like the people of Lot, the people of Noah, the people of Aad, of Thamood, and Pharaoh and his people and others.
Or God threatens the idolaters by one of the chastisement kinds which will come in the future, when Doomsday will approach.

The Universe and the Quran 4
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2015, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,589,410 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
74:32. Nay, by the Moon
74:33. And the night when it [the moon] withdraweth
74:34. And the dawn when it [ the moon] shineth forth.
74:35. Lo! This is one of the greatest (portents)

The above seem to contradict the general facts of Science.
There is no way the moon in general will shine forth from dawn
onwards.

What is the Muslims explanation for the above?
Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
These ayat are among the 'Mutashabihat" i.e. the ambiguos or mysterious ayat, the exact meaning of which is unknown even to Muslims, in the past and even at the present, so that even the Prophet himself did not know that, and when was asked, he said: "I don't know their implication or meaning; I heard them from the angel as such."

Then when you go to the meaning written by the translators, how will the translator know its meaning and implication? he of course will refer to the available commentary and explanation, which is defective and not correct; therefore, you then come to these ayat and say they are wrong and include flaw!

...

Now this is the interpretation of these ayat 74:33-35 :by the late inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, who did not graduate at any school, even he did not learn the first year of primary school, but merely he learnt reading and writing Arabic at a local public teacher, while scholars who spent tens of years of their life studying and learning but they did not attain to know the exact meaning of such ayat:

Quran 74:32-35
{[Then God – be glorified – said:]
32. No, [they cannot get rid of the chastisement; I swear] by the moon [when it will divide into two halves! a]

33. And [by] the night b when it will retire [from you, and will never return to you!]

34. And [by] the morning when it will shine forth c!

35. [That] surely [Saqar] is one of the greatest [suns.] d}
.................................................. .......................

The Universe and the Quran 4
That is the problem with the Quran, full of contradictions, errors, absurdities and not in touch with reality.
To make sense interpreters has to twist and turn to reconcile fictions with reality.

Note explanation by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly for verse 74:35 is an intellectual error.
Even if it is fiction or allegorical, it has to follow.
If 74:32-34 refer to the Moon, then 74:35 CANNOT refer to the Sun or Suns.

In the first place, a moon do no shine by itself but depend on reflected light from the Sun. This ignorance is one starting error and Allah who is supposed to be omniscient [know everything] should not have been ignorant of this.
A 'Moon' semantically and evidenced in nature by ALL people cannot suddenly become the 'Sun' by description.


I see the arrangements as such;

74:32-35 The Power of God:
74:32-35 is a paragraph by itself to reflect the great power of Allah creations and meant to refer to the Sun is a great sign [portent] of Allah's power. This is a common pattern all over the Quran. First Allah [rather Muhammad] inform of Allah great powers via his supreme creations. With that display of power, then Muhammad follow up with the threat of HELL of infidels and paradise for Muslims.

74:36-56 The Threat of Hell or Paradise for Believers
Then it follow, the powerful God who create the Sun sent 74:36-56 is a reminder and warning to Muslims and infidels respectively.
74:36. As a warning unto men,
74:37. Unto him of you who will advance [Muslims] or hang back [infidels].
..
74:56. And they [infidels] will not heed unless Allah willeth (it). He [Allah] is the fount of fear. He is the fount of Mercy.

My explanation make sense [74:32 refer to the Sun not the Moon] instead of twisting with all sort of falsehoods as by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly and others who take the Quran as Perfect and directly from God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2015, 02:10 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,589,410 times
Reputation: 461
41:37. And of His portents are the night and the day and the sun and the moon. ...

74:32. Nay, by the Moon
74:33. And the night when it [the moon] withdraweth
74:34. And the dawn when it [ the moon] shineth forth.
74:35. Lo! This is one of the greatest (portents)
If we change 'Moon' to 'Sun' then 74:32-35 will make sense.
74:32. Nay, by the Sun
74:33. And the night when it [the Sun] withdraweth
74:34. And the dawn when it [ the Sun] shineth forth.
74:35. Lo! This is one of the greatest (portents) [cross check to 41:37 and other similar verses]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2015, 11:24 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,126 times
Reputation: 435
it occurs to me that here is this supposed Creator of the universe who is spewing forth all of this brilliant scientific data and not one bit of it is quoted in any of our popular science books. seriously, if this was the real Creator of the universe spewing forth, just would be THE scientific book. No others would be needed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2015, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,305,624 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
it occurs to me that here is this supposed Creator of the universe who is spewing forth all of this brilliant scientific data and not one bit of it is quoted in any of our popular science books. seriously, if this was the real Creator of the universe spewing forth, just would be THE scientific book. No others would be needed.
The whole purpose of the Qur'an is to let all of mankind know that "There is only one God, who has no equals, partners or progeny and only he is to be worshiped. It is not to teach us about science or anything else.

It serves it's purpose perfectly giving the message 114 times in a variety of ways. Any person who reads the Qur'an should be able to tell that Allaah(swt) is emphatically telling us, there are no other gods and to worship them will only gain you what they can give, which is nothing.

To learn about Islam a person has to read and understand all scriptures from all people, all times and all nations. Or read the summation provided in the 4 madhabs.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2015, 02:16 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,374 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is the problem with the Quran, full of contradictions, errors, absurdities and not in touch with reality.
To make sense interpreters has to twist and turn to reconcile fictions with reality.

Note explanation by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly for verse 74:35 is an intellectual error.
Even if it is fiction or allegorical, it has to follow.
If 74:32-34 refer to the Moon, then 74:35 CANNOT refer to the Sun or Suns.

In the first place, a moon do no shine by itself but depend on reflected light from the Sun. This ignorance is one starting error and Allah who is supposed to be omniscient [know everything] should not have been ignorant of this.
A 'Moon' semantically and evidenced in nature by ALL people cannot suddenly become the 'Sun' by description.


I see the arrangements as such;

74:32-35 The Power of God:
74:32-35 is a paragraph by itself to reflect the great power of Allah creations and meant to refer to the Sun is a great sign [portent] of Allah's power. This is a common pattern all over the Quran. First Allah [rather Muhammad] inform of Allah great powers via his supreme creations. With that display of power, then Muhammad follow up with the threat of HELL of infidels and paradise for Muslims.

74:36-56 The Threat of Hell or Paradise for Believers
Then it follow, the powerful God who create the Sun sent 74:36-56 is a reminder and warning to Muslims and infidels respectively.
74:36. As a warning unto men,
74:37. Unto him of you who will advance [Muslims] or hang back [infidels].
..
74:56. And they [infidels] will not heed unless Allah willeth (it). He [Allah] is the fount of fear. He is the fount of Mercy.

My explanation make sense [74:32 refer to the Sun not the Moon] instead of twisting with all sort of falsehoods as by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly and others who take the Quran as Perfect and directly from God.

When a child dare to insult his father, he will keep to such insult or increase in it, because he has broken the limit of disciplining.
So you dared to revile God and the Quran to which no book is comparable; it is the word of God word by word; in this context it is comparable only to the Ten Commandments which God Himself wrote with the pen of His might on the Tablets of stone.

Anyhow: the answer to your blasphemy is so easy and clear.
The ayat 74: 32-34 is a swearing, which implies the threatening of idolaters by such events in the future.
Then the answer to this swearing: He tells them that Saqar is one of the large suns, which is Hell after Doomsday.
In English it is like the conditional : if you come, I will entertain you.
So this underlined phrase is related to the (if phrase.)
So the swearing phrase: the 3 ayat, then comes the phrase: Saqar is one of the greatest [suns.]

Of course, Muslims insist on the moon, when it is not mentioned in the aya, and it is a threatening and warning of the idolaters.

Of course, you did not read about the oath or swearing, which God Himself swears, as in many ayat of the Quran.

Like By the fig! Does God swear by the fig as the fruit, and what is the implication of such swearing? Or by the olive!
But because they do not know the meaning and implication of such swearing: which is in fact a warning of disbelievers, that if you do not believe, I will chastise you by such and such ways of punishment.

The Universe and the Quran 4

Here I remember a nice example: The tyrant Saddam once swore والله والله والله By God! by God! by God! And he stopped speaking
What did that mean? It implied he threatened his enemies (To me: I don't like anyone of them neither Saddam nor the others)

And God - be glorified - described Saqar in other ayat that: it does not leave anyone in the space but will withdraw him to it, and that it looms to mankind and they see it now as one of the sky stars, but they do not know that it is Saqar of Doomsday.

That is in the preceding ayat of the same soora 74: 27-30
27. But do you know what Saqar is!? j

[Afterwards, God be glorified explained some of its features, and He said:]
28. It does not leave [anyone in the space without drawing him towards it]; it does not spare [anything around it without burning it with its heat.]

29. It is [nowadays] looming to mankind k.

30. Imposed upon it [the attraction of] nineteen [planets.] l
.................................................. ...............................
j This is to magnify its condition, its severe heat and wide diameter.
k It looms to people from far away, so they see it as one of the stars, because it is so far away from them.
l i.e. imposed on it is the function of holding nineteen planets. That is because when the life of our present sun will end and its surface become cold, it will burst and become nineteen pieces. Then such pieces will become planets, i.e. new earths, which Saqar will draw towards itself, and they will orbit around it, and in this way a new solar system, other than our present system, will form.
The indication of this is His saying be glorified in the Quran 14: 48, which means:
(On the day [of Doom] when the earth shall be exchanged by another earth, and the [gaseous] heavens too [shall be exchanged by other gaseous heavens]; and [all] shall come forth unto God, the One, the Subduer.)
In the book The Universe and the Quran, I have fully explained about these ayat, [under the title of: The sun will burst and Formation of the new planets.]
The Universe and the Quran 4

The Universe and the Quran 4

Last edited by roar; 09-06-2015 at 02:49 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2015, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,589,410 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
When a child dare to insult his father, he will keep to such insult or increase in it, because he has broken the limit of disciplining.
So you dared to revile God and the Quran to which no book is comparable; it is the word of God word by word; in this context it is comparable only to the Ten Commandments which God Himself wrote with the pen of His might on the Tablets of stone.
There is no question of insult here.
From my confident perspective, God do not exists, so what am I insulting or reviling.
I understand your sensitivity but you cannot impose that on me in a discussion forum.
I sense you are most likely to chop off my head if we meet physically in your neighborhood?
Let's get real, be objective and continue to discuss [volleying thoughts].

Quote:
Anyhow: the answer to your blasphemy is so easy and clear.
The ayat 74: 32-34 is a swearing, which implies the threatening of idolaters by such events in the future.
Then the answer to this swearing: He tells them that Saqar is one of the large suns, which is Hell after Doomsday.
In English it is like the conditional : if you come, I will entertain you.
So this underlined phrase is related to the (if phrase.)
So the swearing phrase: the 3 ayat, then comes the phrase: Saqar is one of the greatest [suns.]
As I implied above 'blasphemy' only applies if I am a Muslim but I am not a Muslim.
You need to appreciate other people have different point-of-views which are based on rationality, reality, truth and objectivity.

Re swearing;
Regardless, any swearing would be more credible if it is based on proven justifiable truths.
E.g. I swear by the Sun rising from the West.
I understand there are lots of swearings in the Quran.
I commented on 74:32-34 while I was going through it chapter by chapter and verse by verse and came upon it.
There are many swearings that do not make sense but most I do not bother to comment upon but this 74:32-34 is too obvious because it is common public knowledge.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2015, 10:05 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,126 times
Reputation: 435
Seriously, no Creator of the universe is going to be this insecure. Think of what YOU think this being has created. Everything. This entire universe. Think of how absolutely powerful this being would be, to create the universe. And now he writes a book it's all about his insecurities that we don't believe in him. This is just nuts.truthfully, the Quran is nonsense. It is full of laughable quote unquote science, and all these threats and hate, and it's just so poorly written that it's amazingly worthless. And then you claim that the Creator of the universe wrote it? the ridiculous pleading over and over for us to submit to him. What kind of a creator of the universe needs this kind of submission? here's a heads up for you. People who are great creators, and I'm talking people not super beings who created the universe, they have all the self confidence in the world. They don't care who believes in them and who doesnt.they don't have these urges to slaughter people who make fun of them, or don't believe in them. what Mohammad has done is write a book pretending that it's from some super being. But in doing so, he made that super being a weakling.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top