U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-18-2015, 08:25 AM
 
99 posts, read 54,234 times
Reputation: 13

Advertisements

2.1.3 Humans Created in Paradise and then Brought to Earth
The author of the Qur'an explicitly states that humans were first created outside of the earth and then only later sent down to live on the planet after being expelled from paradise. We have no evidence that humans ever lived in a terrestrial or extra-terrestrial paradise. In fact, all evidence points to primitive humanoids living in caves for tens of thousands of years before settling into more permanent dwellings. [5]
"Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: 'Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time.'
Qur'an 2:36
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The best day on which the sun has risen is Friday; on it Adam was created, on it he was made to enter Paradise, on it he. was expelled from it.
Sahih Muslim 4:1856


Answer:
Adam was created on earth, not in heaven; heaven or Paradise or Garden is ethereal spiritual not material.
Adam and Eve were created in one of the earth gardens which was situated on one of the earth mountains; then when Adam disobeyed God and approached the Blackberry tree which tore his clothes and the clothes of Eve so their shame appeared to them.
So Adam was punished and driven out of that garden which was on the mountain.
The water springs found some ways and started to spring in the plain land below that mountain, so the trees dried up and Adam complained to his Lord of thirst and shortage of food; therefore, God commanded him to go down from that mountain to the plain land, and he was obliged to descend from that mountain together with Eve, the cattle which God created for him in that garden and the birds; so all of them went down from that mountain to the plain land, then reproduced and spread throughout the earth.

The interpretation is according to the inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible: Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly:
Qur'an 2:36
(( 36. And We said: "O Adam! Dwell together with your wife in the garden [that was on one of the earth mountains] f,
and eat you [both] amply g [of the fruits] thereof where you please;
but approach not this tree h lest you should then become the wrong-doers i."))
.................................................. .........................
f God – be glorified – created Adam and Eve on one of the earth mountains which included much of trees and fruits, many water-springs and many kinds of birds and cattle.
That mountain was a portion of a planet that had been inhabited in the past and included man, animal, plant and other kinds of living beings; then when its Doomsday occurred, it broke up and became meteorites: some of which fell on our earth to become the mountains.
Then when rain came down on those mountains, which included the seeds of trees and plants, they started to plant and grow and became gardens on those mountains.

God – be glorified – said in the Quran 13: 4, that which means:
(There are, in the earth, pieces [which were not from the earth in origin, but were in the space then fell on the earth and became mountains] adjacent to each other, and gardens of fruits)
http://www.quran-ayat.com/universe/n..._Transmissible
Then when the plants and trees grew on those mountains, God created many kinds of the birds and the cattle, and God created Adam and Eve on one of those mountains.

g It means: Eat of the fruits, the birds and the cattle of the garden and drink of the milk of its cattle: a profuse provision without toiling.
h Because it had spikes that would tear their dresses and wound their hands in case they would eat of its fruit; therefore, God forbade them to approach it; it was the blackberry tree.
i You would wrong yourselves by eating of its fruit.

[The interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, was the first one to differentiate between "approaching it" and "eating of it"; and it was the blackberry tree which includes spikes, and it is not the apple tree which is a good tree, its fruit is delicious, it has no spikes, and its fruit is not forbidden till today; while till today the blackberry has spikes which tear the dress and wound the hand. – the commentator.]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-18-2015, 09:10 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
Reputation: 435
"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah 's Apostle said, "Treat women nicely, for a women is created from a rib, and the most curved portion of the rib is its upper portion, so, if you should try to straighten it, it will break, but if you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. So treat women nicely."

Muslim (17:4206) - A woman who became pregnant confesses to Muhammad that she is guilty of adultery. Muhammad allows her to have the child, then has her stoned. The description is graphic: "Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her."

Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Muhammed let his men rape women if they ejaculated sperm into them!

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Bukhari (72:715) - "Aisha said, 'I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women'" This is Muhammad's own wife complaining of the abuse that the women of her religions suffer relative to other women.

Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Muslim (9:3506) - Muhammad's father-in-laws (Abu Bakr and Umar) amused him by slapping his wives (Aisha and Hafsa) for annoying him. According to the Hadith, the prophet of Islam laughed upon hearing this.

Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them." At first, Muhammad forbade men from beating their wives, but he rescinded this once it was reported that women were becoming emboldened toward their husbands. Beatings are sometimes necessary to keep women in their place.

Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

Abu Dawud (2126) - "A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: 'I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet).' The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: 'She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her'" A Muslim man thinks his is getting a virgin, then finds out she is pregnant. Muhammad tells him to treat the woman as a sex slave and then flog her after she has delivered the child.

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 969 - Requires that a married woman be "put in a separate room and beaten lightly" if she "act in a sexual manner toward others." According to the Hadith, this can be for an offense as petty as merely being alone with a man to whom she is not related.

Kash-shaf (the revealer) of al-Zamkhshari (Vol. 1, p. 525) - [Muhammad said] "Hang up your scourge where your wife can see it"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2015, 09:16 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
Reputation: 435
"Because it had spikes that would tear their dresses and wound their hands in case they would eat of its fruit; therefore, God forbade them to approach it; it was the blackberry tree.
i You would wrong yourselves by eating of its fruit."

I thought they were blackberry BUSHES!!

So, raspberries are also evil to eat. And pomegranates and lemons.

What was the punishment for trying to eat these fruits?

Why didn't allah make these without spikes?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2015, 01:44 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,234 times
Reputation: 13
The tree which God forbade Adam to approach was not the apple, but was the blackberry tree, which is used as a fence of gardens to ward off the wild animals, because it has spikes; such spikes will tear the dress or the clothes.
So this was the trial of Adam; would he comply or not; but he forgot God's forbidding and obeyed the suggestion of Satan, so he approached the tree which tore his clothes with its spikes, therefore his shame appeared to Eve, as did the shame of Eve appeared to Adam.
So it was Adam who ate first of that tree, then he deceived Eve to eat of it, and she ate of it.
The Disagreement of the
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2015, 02:01 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
Reputation: 435
"but was the blackberry tree,"

Blackberries grow on bushes, not trees.
Blackberry Care Instructions

You don't make fences out of blackberry bushes. Wild animals LIVE in blackberry bushes!

Where did the garden tools come from?

Where did adam get clothes??

Shame? If clothes tear, what does that have to do with shame?

Allah seems like a deceiver and trickster!

What was the punishment for eating blackberries?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2015, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post
2.1.3 Humans Created in Paradise and then Brought to Earth
The author of the Qur'an explicitly states that humans were first created outside of the earth and then only later sent down to live on the planet after being expelled from paradise. We have no evidence that humans ever lived in a terrestrial or extra-terrestrial paradise. In fact, all evidence points to primitive humanoids living in caves for tens of thousands of years before settling into more permanent dwellings. [5]
"Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: 'Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time.'
Qur'an 2:36
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The best day on which the sun has risen is Friday; on it Adam was created, on it he was made to enter Paradise, on it he. was expelled from it.
Sahih Muslim 4:1856

Answer:
Adam was created on earth, not in heaven; heaven or Paradise or Garden is ethereal spiritual not material.
Adam and Eve were created in one of the earth gardens which was situated on one of the earth mountains; then when Adam disobeyed God and approached the Blackberry tree which tore his clothes and the clothes of Eve so their shame appeared to them.
So Adam was punished and driven out of that garden which was on the mountain.
The water springs found some ways and started to spring in the plain land below that mountain, so the trees dried up and Adam complained to his Lord of thirst and shortage of food; therefore, God commanded him to go down from that mountain to the plain land, and he was obliged to descend from that mountain together with Eve, the cattle which God created for him in that garden and the birds; so all of them went down from that mountain to the plain land, then reproduced and spread throughout the earth.

The interpretation is according to the inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible: Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly:
Qur'an 2:36
(( 36. And We said: "O Adam! Dwell together with your wife in the garden [that was on one of the earth mountains] f,
and eat you [both] amply g [of the fruits] thereof where you please;
but approach not this tree h lest you should then become the wrong-doers i."))
.................................................. .........................
f God – be glorified – created Adam and Eve on one of the earth mountains which included much of trees and fruits, many water-springs and many kinds of birds and cattle.
That mountain was a portion of a planet that had been inhabited in the past and included man, animal, plant and other kinds of living beings; then when its Doomsday occurred, it broke up and became meteorites: some of which fell on our earth to become the mountains.
Then when rain came down on those mountains, which included the seeds of trees and plants, they started to plant and grow and became gardens on those mountains.

God – be glorified – said in the Quran 13: 4, that which means:
(There are, in the earth, pieces [which were not from the earth in origin, but were in the space then fell on the earth and became mountains] adjacent to each other, and gardens of fruits)
The Universe and the Quran 2
Then when the plants and trees grew on those mountains, God created many kinds of the birds and the cattle, and God created Adam and Eve on one of those mountains.

g It means: Eat of the fruits, the birds and the cattle of the garden and drink of the milk of its cattle: a profuse provision without toiling.
h Because it had spikes that would tear their dresses and wound their hands in case they would eat of its fruit; therefore, God forbade them to approach it; it was the blackberry tree.
i You would wrong yourselves by eating of its fruit.

[The interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly, was the first one to differentiate between "approaching it" and "eating of it"; and it was the blackberry tree which includes spikes, and it is not the apple tree which is a good tree, its fruit is delicious, it has no spikes, and its fruit is not forbidden till today; while till today the blackberry has spikes which tear the dress and wound the hand. – the commentator.]
3:7. He [Allah] it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations. They are the substance of the Book, and others (which are) allegorical.
But those [zealous Muslims] in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it.
None knoweth its [allegories'] explanation save Allah. And those [Muslims] who are of sound instruction say: We [Muslims] believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly is indeed one of the guilty ones seeking to cause confusions and dissensions as pointed out in 3:7, i.e.
those [zealous Muslims] in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it.
The story of Adam and Even is obviously an allegory to convey the fact of human-beings being self-aware and self-conscious of their nudity and the need for sexual privacy in term of the progress of their moral conscience. This allegory extend to other sins beside the sexual related ones.
In the olden days there was a need for spiritual and religious guidance on such sexual ethics but not necessary so in the present toward the future where humanity can rely on the development of the generic moral system and conscience.

Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly is making a big mess of that critical allegory of Adam and Eve. The Garden in Paradise [of innocent consciousness] is necessary. However it does not matter whether it is an apple or blackberry tree. It could be any example of something that Adam should not do, e.g. step on some kind of sh:t, eat something wrong, do something wrong, etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2015, 03:35 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,234 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"but was the blackberry tree,"

Blackberries grow on bushes, not trees.
Blackberry Care Instructions

You don't make fences out of blackberry bushes. Wild animals LIVE in blackberry bushes!

Where did the garden tools come from?

Where did adam get clothes??

Shame? If clothes tear, what does that have to do with shame?

Allah seems like a deceiver and trickster!

What was the punishment for eating blackberries?
Answer:
It is a tree, whether it is small or large; trees differ, and there are many kinds of this wild berries.
It is planted as a fence of gardens to prevent animals and intruders from intruding into the garden, on account of its hard spikes.
Wild animals like pigs live in bushes but not in any bush; this kind of trees has spikes which prevents animals and intruders.
So the 'forbidding' in fact was in the first place, the approaching of that tree, not the eating of its fruit, but then when they approached it and ate of its fruit, its spikes tore their clothes, and they started to patch on them some of the fig leaves which are board leaves, then at last they discard their clothes and made others and wore them.
So the shame of Adam appeared before Eve, and the shame of Eve appeared before Adam, and each one discovered was different from his/her mate; before then they were not aware of this, but they observed the animals males and females come to each other sexually: the male with the female.
The purpose of Satan was to drive them out of the garden by inciting them to disobey God.
And his purpose of uncovering the shame of the Children of Adam is to let the fornication and adultery spread among them.

{Quran 7: 27. Children of Adam, let not Satan seduce youg as he h drove your parents out of the garden i, stripping them of their garments j to show them their shameful parts. }
.................................................. ........................
h With his suggestions.
i After he made the blackberry tree lovely to them, and he made fair-seeming the eating of its berries, and so they lost the garden.
j With his cunning and trickery.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2015, 03:56 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,234 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
3:7. He [Allah] it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations. They are the substance of the Book, and others (which are) allegorical.
But those [zealous Muslims] in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it.
None knoweth its [allegories'] explanation save Allah. And those [Muslims] who are of sound instruction say: We [Muslims] believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly is indeed one of the guilty ones seeking to cause confusions and dissensions as pointed out in 3:7, i.e.
those [zealous Muslims] in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it.
The story of Adam and Even is obviously an allegory to convey the fact of human-beings being self-aware and self-conscious of their nudity and the need for sexual privacy in term of the progress of their moral conscience. This allegory extend to other sins beside the sexual related ones.
In the olden days there was a need for spiritual and religious guidance on such sexual ethics but not necessary so in the present toward the future where humanity can rely on the development of the generic moral system and conscience.

Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly is making a big mess of that critical allegory of Adam and Eve. The Garden in Paradise [of innocent consciousness] is necessary. However it does not matter whether it is an apple or blackberry tree. It could be any example of something that Adam should not do, e.g. step on some kind of sh:t, eat something wrong, do something wrong, etc.
From your reply, it is very obvious that you are the guilty, because you are not seeking after the truth, but you deliberately want only to allege mistakes to the Quran by any way; and it is not Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly that is guilty, because he spoke out of inspiration and not of his own accord.
While you seek after:
1- barring people from God's way by claiming to them, specially those who do not know about the Quran, that the Quran includes mistakes,
2- and that is by misinterpreting the ayat of the Quran or you go to some translations by excellent men but in fact they did not know about the true explanation of such ambiguous ayat.

{Quran 3: 7. [God] is He Who has revealed to you [Mohammed] the Book [: the Quran] some of which being 'precise' ayat a; they are the essence of the Book, [whereas] others being 'analogous ' b.
So those, in whose hearts is a deviation [from the truth]; these follow the 'analogous' [ayat] therein c: seeking to seduce [people and turn them away d], and seeking to interpret it. e
But none but God [only] does know its interpretation f;
those – having sure knowledge – say: "We have believed in it g: each [of the 'precise' and the 'analogous'] being from our Lord. h "
Surely, none may accept admonition save men having discerning hearts.}
.................................................. ..........................
a i.e. perfected in their words understandable in meaning, which are not mysterious to man.
b i.e. the ambiguous or allegorical ayat, which are ambiguous to man in meaning and implication.
c and take it as an argument to their falsehood.
d i.e. seeking to confound the weak among people to turn them back from the religion of the Islam: so they say to them: if this had been revealed from God, then it would have been plain and understandable; but these are the words of Mohammed which he said of his own accord.
e i.e. seeking after its meaning and interpretation, so they say:
"What is the meaning of His saying [in the Quran 2: 174
(they [will] eat in their bellies nothing but fire.)
So is the eating in the belly or by the mouth?
Moreover they say: what is the meaning of His saying [in the Quran 37: 64]
(It is a tree growing in the bottom of Hell.)
So how can any tree survive in the fire: living without burning!?"
And so on, they objected to the allegorical ambiguous ayat: denying them and mocking them, while the Prophet said to them: "As such has it been revealed."
And it is narrated that Abu Bakr asked the Prophet – salam to him – "Have you become grey-haired?" He answered: "This grey hair is because of such sooras (or chapters of the Quran) as chapter 81 (When the sun shall be 'divided into many spheres'.), and chapter 100 ([I swear] by that rushed forth, crying out!), and chapter 86 ([I swear] by the sky and [its] 'night visitant'!); and in another prophetic tradition, he said: "My hair has grown grey because of the chapter 11 and its adjacent chapters."
Therefore, God answered them:
f i.e. none knows the interpretation of the allegorical ambiguous ayat in the Quran and their implication, but only God alone; because the allegorical ambiguous ayat tell about the past, foretell about the future and explain about the ethereal world: the world of souls; for you did not attend the past in order to know it, neither the future to understand it, nor do you understand anything about the ethereal world, because you have not yet gone to it.
For the tree which is in the root of Hell is ethereal not material as do you imagine, and the ether does not burn even if it be in fire; and you have something like it which is the asbestos: it does not burn in fire whatever time it may be exposed to the fire.
While about the eating in the belly: you have something like it: the fetus in his mother's womb: he is nourished via the umbilical cord, and does not feed by his mouth; and as such the people of the fire, because they are ethereal spirits, the fire enters their interior from everywhere of their organs.
g even though we don't know its interpretation.
h Who revealed it to our prophet.

The following link is to those who know Arabic
المتشابه من القرآن
http://quran-ayat.com/tafseer.php/
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2015, 06:53 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,497 times
Reputation: 435
"It is planted as a fence of gardens to prevent animals and intruders from intruding into the garden, on account of its hard spikes."

Who were these intruders? Who planted these 'fences'?

"Wild animals like pigs live in bushes but not in any bush; this kind of trees has spikes which prevents animals and intruders."

Nope.
"Rabbits love roses, eating thorns and all."
Rabbits Love Roses
If a creator of the universe really existed and wrote a book, I would expect something like this:
Garden Animal Pest Control for Home Gardens

"So the 'forbidding' in fact was in the first place, the approaching of that tree, not the eating of its fruit, but then when they approached it and ate of its fruit, its spikes tore their clothes, and they started to patch on them some of the fig leaves which are board leaves, then at last they discard their clothes and made others and wore them."

This is nuts. First of all, wearing leaves held together by nothing isn't going to keep anyone covered! Try it! Fig leaves are not clothes. Where did they get indestructible clothes they could wear while they worked and did gardening and even BUILD THORNY FENCES???? Or did allah build these worthless fences? If so, why didn't allah build proper fences?

"So the shame of Adam appeared before Eve, and the shame of Eve appeared before Adam, and each one discovered was different from his/her mate; before then they were not aware of this, but they observed the animals males and females come to each other sexually: the male with the female. "

What in the world is shameful here? What is shameful is a 53 year old man having sex with a 9 year old child and men mass raping captive women in front of their husbands and fathers and sons...and allah approved of that!

"The purpose of Satan was to drive them out of the garden by inciting them to disobey God."

Really? Going on your assumption that there is a satan and allah, why didn't allah just stop satan? Allah can do anything. And why punish adam and eve for doing something so meaningless? They weren't slaughtering each other.

"And his purpose of uncovering the shame of the Children of Adam is to let the fornication and adultery spread among them."

Thank goodness for that!!

This is the craziest story I ever heard!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2015, 03:19 PM
 
99 posts, read 54,234 times
Reputation: 13
juju, juju don't mix things and speak many points at the same time.
Don't evade and you know.
I said the black berry is used as fences of gardens; this is to define the blackberry; I didn't say the garden of Adam was fenced by the blackberry; the blackberry planted in that garden as one of the trees there. This garden was like a forest on that mountain: it included many trees one of them was that blackberry.

And while we speak about the story of Adam and the mistakes of Ezra who rewrote the Torah after their return from the captivity of Babylon;
http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflicts/index.htm#The_Torah_[or_Hebrew_Bible]_of_Ezra_

and we said why God forbid them to approach that tree lest it might tear their clothes, then you jumped to your other forgery: the pedophile .. etc. And we may discuss this later on. So that you will know that she was not 9 years.

God can stop Satan and stop you immediately, but in the life of the World, He wants to check them and their belief and their firmness in belief and their Godfearing or their disobedience. So He lets Satan suggest to them to know who will follow his suggestions like you, and who will not obey Satan, but will obey God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top