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Old 08-23-2015, 12:42 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Muslims are promised paradise in the hereafter.

My question is when will Muslims enter Paradise to get their superlative rewards.

From what I have read;
30:43 So set thy purpose resolutely for the right religion [lilddeeni], before the inevitable day cometh from Allah. On that Day mankind will be sundered.

Does the above verse imply Allah will wait for all of mankind to die then sundered [divide] them into Muslims [of various classes] on the right hand and on the left-hand sinners & infidels.

In order to wait for all mankind to die eventually and collected into one group there is the concept of 'tarry'. Tarry is some transition period while for all of mankind to die eventually.
Note I day in the hereafter is 50,000 years.

Thus a Muslim may have to wait 50,000 or million of years before they received their superlative rewards and eternal life?

Is the above the correct interpretation of what the Quran conveyed?
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Old 08-23-2015, 05:53 AM
 
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First of all you have to understand that the therm "muslims" doesn't necessary means from the Islamic faith.
It means those who followed the revelations from God and those who were monotheists (and haven't heard of God's Scriptures or in bad therms only so they sayed monotheists or haven't had the possibility to access properly to it)

In arabic we have the therm of "Hanif" :

Ḥanīf meaning "revert" refers to one who maintained the pure monotheistic beliefs of the patriarch Abraham. More specifically, in Islamic thought, they are the people who, during the period known as the Pre-Islamic period or Age of Ignorance, were seen to have rejected idolatry and retained some or all of the tenets of the religion of Abraham which was "submission to God" (Allah) in its purest form.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif

So first of all it's only God who will determine this.

Then, you have the sourate 56 concerning those people of the right and left hand, who are in 3 groups :

56.7 And you become [of] three kinds

There's two groups among the people of the right hand who are i think the first believers/helpers of the prophets or believers with a very hight piety and others among the rights hand who are an other group.

Like you said muslims have to wait some years until the day of resurection, we have this indication in this followed verse :

36.51 And the Horn will be blown; and at once from the graves to their Lord they will hasten.

36.52 They will say, "O woe to us! Who has raised us up from our sleeping place?" [The reply will be], "This is what the Most Merciful had promised, and the messengers told the truth."

So during a period of time mankind will be in peace in the graves.
Even those who did evil or didn't believe in God.

And you have the marthyrs who don't wait :

36.20 And there came from the farthest end of the city a man, running. He said, "O my people, follow the messengers.

36.26 It was said, "Enter Paradise." He said, "I wish my people could know

(He was killed by his people, so he is a marthyr)

So yes a muslim (in the general therm again, it can include monotheists, muslims, christians and jews) have to wait until they go to paradise.
And people -exept the marthyrs- will be judged in that day.
And bad muslims won't enter paradise.
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Old 08-23-2015, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Thanks for your points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
First of all you have to understand that the term "muslims" doesn't necessary means from the Islamic faith.
It means those who followed the revelations from God and those who were monotheists (and haven't heard of God's Scriptures or in bad therms only so they sayed monotheists or haven't had the possibility to access properly to it)

In arabic we have the therm of "Hanif" :

Ḥanīf meaning "revert" refers to one who maintained the pure monotheistic beliefs of the patriarch Abraham. More specifically, in Islamic thought, they are the people who, during the period known as the Pre-Islamic period or Age of Ignorance, were seen to have rejected idolatry and retained some or all of the tenets of the religion of Abraham which was "submission to God" (Allah) in its purest form.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif

So first of all it's only God who will determine this.
Your mistake here is the fallacy of conflation of different senses and perspectives in determining what is a meaning of a word or concept.

Example:
What you are saying is like:
"Diamond" doesn't mean gems or precious stones. Diamond meant pure carbon. In this case you are conflating "gems" and "pure carbon" to serve some sales talk.
To represent the above terms truly and correctly in terms of its meaning one need to take account of the concept involve. To determine the concept one must define the associated critical properties of that concept. When we speak of the concept of 'diamond' in general as a stone [gem, precious, hard] the property of it being "pure carbon" [though true] is not critical anyone. What is diamond is defined by its various properties, i.e. hardness, clarity, light reflections, etc. No jeweler or user would be bothered that it is actually 'pure carbon'.

Similary to the above example, your extension of "Muslim" as equal to 'monotheism' in this context is a conflation.
The Quran committed a fallacy of conflation as result of a rhetoric by Muhammad to sell his ideology to the Jews and Christians. If he can convince they are all from the same sources ['brothers'] then it is an easy sell to get them to convert to Islam. This tactic is very common everywhere when one attempt to get the other to accept an idea.

To be precise, here the truth in terms of 'word' > 'concept' > 'properties';

1. Muslim = monotheist, Abrahamic religion, Muhammad - Quran + other specific properties
2. Christian = monotheist, Abrahamic religion, Jesus - Gospels + ..
3. Jew = monotheist, Abrahamic religion, Moses -Torah + ..

Therefore a 'Muslim" must be exactly defined by 1 and nothing else.
One can say Muslims, Christians and Jews are monotheists traceable to Abraham but a Muslim cannot be a Christian nor Jew.

Similarly, there are other monotheists who believe/submit/surrender to God but they are not Abrahamic nor Muslims.
4. Vedantist = monotheist, Hindu religion - various teachers - Bhagavad Gita.


Quote:
Then, you have the sourate 56 concerning those people of the right and left hand, who are in 3 groups :

56.7 And you become [of] three kinds

There's two groups among the people of the right hand who are i think the first believers/helpers of the prophets or believers with a very hight piety and others among the rights hand who are an other group.
This is a good point [I often quote it] to demonstrate that there a degrees of ranking in being a Muslim, i.e. being a truer Muslim.
To be a truer Muslim of high piety & duty one has to comply with a greater degree of what is stipulated in the Quran.
The fact is the jihadists are the most truer Muslims because the comply with most and as exact as possible to what is stipulated in the Quran.
The moderate Muslims are second rate Muslims on the right hand and will receive lesser rewards when in paradise. Note the Quran even give in details what the more truer Muslims will get over the moderate or lazy/coward Muslims.

Like you said muslims have to wait some years until the day of resurection, we have this indication in this followed verse :

Quote:
36.51 And the Horn will be blown; and at once from the graves to their Lord they will hasten.

36.52 They will say, "O woe to us! Who has raised us up from our sleeping place?" [The reply will be], "This is what the Most Merciful had promised, and the messengers told the truth."

So during a period of time mankind will be in peace in the graves.
Even those who did evil or didn't believe in God.
One day in the hereafter is equivalent to 50,000 years on Earth. So a Muslim need to note they may be waiting for probably millions of years before judgment day.



Quote:
And you have the marthyrs who don't wait :

36.20 And there came from the farthest end of the city a man, running. He said, "O my people, follow the messengers.

36.26 It was said, "Enter Paradise." He said, "I wish my people could know

(He was killed by his people, so he is a marthyr)

So yes a muslim (in the general therm again, it can include monotheists, muslims, christians and jews) have to wait until they go to paradise.
And people -exept the marthyrs- will be judged in that day.
And bad muslims won't enter paradise.
Note the 'Martyrdom' thread.
This is one good reason why the Quran encourage and it an incentive the truer Muslims to commit real malignant martyrdom and cause the terrible evils and violence that is going around the world today.

The terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who believe on martyrdom is real. This is a shame because all these acts are relied and inspired from falsehoods [there is no God] and lies.
The fact is all these evils are triggered by personal existential psychology. If we deal with the personal psychology we could resolve all these religious based/inspired evils.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-23-2015 at 10:17 PM..
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Old 08-23-2015, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Thanks for your points.

Your mistake here is the fallacy of conflation of different senses and perspectives in determining what is a meaning of a word or concept.

Example:
What you are saying is like:
"Diamond" doesn't mean gems or precious stones. Diamond meant pure carbon. In this case you are conflating "gems" and "pure carbon" to serve some sales talk.
To represent the above terms truly and correctly in terms of its meaning one need to take account of the concept involve. To determine the concept one must define the associated critical properties of that concept. When we speak of the concept of 'diamond' in general as a stone [gem, precious, hard] the property of it being "pure carbon" [though true] is not critical anyone. What is diamond is defined by its various properties, i.e. hardness, clarity, light reflections, etc. No jeweler or user would be bothered that it is actually 'pure carbon'.

Similary to the above example, your extension of "Muslim" as equal to 'monotheism' in this context is a conflation.
The Quran committed a fallacy of conflation as result of a rhetoric by Muhammad to sell his ideology to the Jews and Christians. If he can convince they are all from the same sources ['brothers'] then it is an easy sell to get them to convert to Islam. This tactic is very common everywhere when one attempt to get the other to accept an idea.

To be precise, here the truth in terms of 'word' > 'concept' > 'properties';

1. Muslim = monotheist, Abrahamic religion, Muhammad - Quran + other specific properties
2. Christian = monotheist, Abrahamic religion, Jesus - Gospels + ..
3. Jew = monotheist, Abrahamic religion, Moses -Torah + ..

Therefore a 'Muslim" must be exactly defined by 1 and nothing else.
One can say Muslims, Christians and Jews are monotheists traceable to Abraham but a Muslim cannot be a Christian nor Jew.

Similarly, there are other monotheists who believe/submit/surrender to God but they are not Abrahamic nor Muslims.
4. Vedantist = monotheist, Hindu religion - various teachers - Bhagavad Gita.


This is a good point [I often quote it] to demonstrate that there a degrees of ranking in being a Muslim, i.e. being a truer Muslim.
To be a truer Muslim of high piety & duty one has to comply with a greater degree of what is stipulated in the Quran.
The fact is the jihadists are the most truer Muslims because the comply with most and as exact as possible to what is stipulated in the Quran.
The moderate Muslims are second rate Muslims on the right hand and will receive lesser rewards when in paradise. Note the Quran even give in details what the more truer Muslims will get over the moderate or lazy/coward Muslims.

Like you said muslims have to wait some years until the day of resurection, we have this indication in this followed verse :

One day in the hereafter is equivalent to 50,000 years on Earth. So a Muslim need to note they may be waiting for probably millions of years before judgment day.



Note the 'Martyrdom' thread.
This is one good reason why the Quran encourage and it an incentive the truer Muslims to commit real malignant martyrdom and cause the terrible evils and violence that is going around the world today.

The terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who believe on martyrdom is real. This is a shame because all these acts are relied and inspired from falsehoods [there is no God] and lies.
The fact is all these evils are triggered by personal existential psychology. If we deal with the personal psychology we could resolve all these religious based/inspired evils.
Deliberate Martyrdom is suicide, one of the few sins that can condemn a Muslim to eternal Damnation.

A true Martyr seeks to live, but performs an act of courage with a greater concern for others than his own life.But he still attempts to do it without getting killed.

There is no heaven for suicide bombers and their like. They have earned hellfire not "72 Virgins".



We do believe all good deeds will be rewarded even the good deeds of Non_Muslims, Disbelievers and n0n-Believers. All people will be rewarded for the good they do. the rewards will be much greater than what the person deserves. by the same token all people, including Muslims will be punished for their evil deed, but the punishment will not be greater than what they deserve.

The Rewards and punishment can be while we are alive, in the grave, in the Hereafter or any combination. We do believe the soul remains with the body until the resurrection. One of the worse punishments of the grave will be full awareness of being dead. One of the greatest rewards of the grave will be a peaceful sleep with no awareness of time.
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Old 08-23-2015, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Deliberate Martyrdom is suicide, one of the few sins that can condemn a Muslim to eternal Damnation.
There are many Muslims who had committed suicide due to depression and other non-Islamic reasons. This sort of waste of life is definitely immoral and a sin generally.

"Deliberate Martyrdom" ?? - this is a very odd concept.
When a Muslim commit martyrdom s/he is inspired from the verses of the Quran [reading himself or from other sources].

There are many verses to support the above.
Here is one example, [mine]
9:38. O ye [Muslims] who believe! What aileth you [Muslims] that when it is said unto you [Muslims]: Go forth in the way of Allah, ye [Muslims] are bowed down to the ground with heaviness.
[Allah Questioned] Take ye [Muslims] pleasure in the life of the world rather than in the Hereafter? The comfort of the life of the world is but little in the Hereafter.
There are verses of rewards, expectations of Muslims to do their best and the motivations related to the 'sword verses'. However the above is one to the final trigger [psyched] in sending SOME Muslims into martyrdom.

In the first part Muhammad Muslims are exhorted to go forth in the Way/Cause of Allah with an insult those who are hesitant. Elsewhere the sedentary and slow moving are condemned as cowards.
In the second part, Muhammad played down the life in this world as of lesser importance [an illusion] and the hereafter is more rewarding.
In the mind of the vulnerable, depressed and weak, they would rationalize, since this world is not that important why not end it by doing some thing positive in the way of Allah.
Thus if there is a strategy* that is advantage to the religion but involves the risk of death, they would be very willing volunteer since there is everything to gain, i.e. getting away from this illusory life in this world in exchange for the superlative rewards they get in heaven.
* The US [the Great Satan] is a threat to Islam, so do damage to weaken it and one good strategy is risk and give up one's life in the cause of Allah.

The above is obviously very rational to SOME of the depressed, vulnerable and weaker Muslims and to them it as real it can get.

But the fact is the above is merely a scam arising from believing in a god that is not real at all.

The point is all those above verses [misleading] should not have been included in any holy texts of any religion.

The fact that they appeared in a holy texts of a religion was based on the invention of a man or group of man for their own personal interests.

Thus if we recognize the above fact we will be able to resolve the issue of real malignant martyrdom which should not occur in any circumstances.

Note: Muslims who discussed should not merely interpret from their own point of view but rather get realistic and try to understand what other Muslims collectively may do otherwise and end up committing those terrible evil acts from the Quran which they deemed as correct interpretations of the verses.
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Old 08-24-2015, 06:08 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,252 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

Your mistake here is the fallacy of conflation of different senses and perspectives in determining what is a meaning of a word or concept.

Similary to the above example, your extension of "Muslim" as equal to 'monotheism' in this context is a conflation.
The Quran committed a fallacy of conflation as result of a rhetoric by Muhammad to sell his ideology to the Jews and Christians. If he can convince they are all from the same sources ['brothers'] then it is an easy sell to get them to convert to Islam. This tactic is very common everywhere when one attempt to get the other to accept an idea.

To be precise, here the truth in terms of 'word' > 'concept' > 'properties';

1. Muslim = monotheist, Abrahamic religion, Muhammad - Quran + other specific properties
2. Christian = monotheist, Abrahamic religion, Jesus - Gospels + ..
3. Jew = monotheist, Abrahamic religion, Moses -Torah + ..

Therefore a 'Muslim" must be exactly defined by 1 and nothing else.
One can say Muslims, Christians and Jews are monotheists traceable to Abraham but a Muslim cannot be a Christian nor Jew.

Similarly, there are other monotheists who believe/submit/surrender to God but they are not Abrahamic nor Muslims.
4. Vedantist = monotheist, Hindu religion - various teachers - Bhagavad Gita.

I maybe need to explain better.

Someone who is muslim - for us - is :
1-Someone who submitted himself to God.
2-It's a monotheist who NEVER heard of God's Scriptures or haven't had the possibility to study it or have only heard bad/false things about that religion (so it's not his fault)

Nowadays we won't use the word "muslim" for a jew or a christian or any other monotheist (of nowadays again) but it's still can be correct depending of some aspects (like the period, the situation etc)

So someone like Abraham or Moses is called "muslim" even if they didn't follow the Quran but other rules/Scriptures.
You can't only define a muslim by your point 1, it depends of which people (from which period etc) we are talking about.

In the Quran we can see Abraham which was only a hanif (monotheist) :

2.130 And who would be averse to the religion of Abraham except one who makes a fool of himself. And We had chosen him in this world, and indeed he, in the Hereafter, will be among the righteous.
2.131 When his Lord said to him, "Submit", he said "I have submitted to the Lord of the worlds."

In arabic "aslam" = submit / "aslamtoo" = i have submitted

The queen of Saba who then accepted Judaism :

27.44 She (the queen of Saba) said, "My Lord, indeed I have wronged myself, and I submit with Solomon to Allah , Lord of the worlds."

In arabic "aslamtoo" = i submitted

Or Jacob and his familly following the religion of Abraham (monotheism):

2.132 And Abraham instructed his sons [to do the same] and [so did] Jacob, [saying], "O my sons, indeed Allah has chosen for you this religion, so do not die except while you are Muslims."

in arabic "muslimoon" = submitted

Jesus and the apostles (Christianity):

3.53 But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].

In arabic "muslimimoon" = submitted

We also can add the people of the cave (which were christians - the 7 sleepers) or other people whith no specific indications but monotheists.
That's why i disagree with your understanding of the word "muslim", you use it only for those who follow the Quran only. You also put aside those who never heard of Islam but are/were monotheists.
So your definition is incorrect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The fact is the jihadists are the most truer Muslims because the comply with most and as exact as possible to what is stipulated in the Quran.
The moderate Muslims are second rate Muslims on the right hand and will receive lesser rewards when in paradise. Note the Quran even give in details what the more truer Muslims will get over the moderate or lazy/coward Muslims.
The jihadist do a lot of things who are not permitted : they kill innocent people, they are sometimes in illegal business (drugs for ex), they commit suicide...

It's not because they scream Allahou Akbar and talk about God 24/7 that you must trust them.
If it was the case then 1.2 billion muslims would have follow them.

It means that "true christians" are those who killed millions of native indians, or the crusaders who even killed many christians in the middle east, that inquisition is part of Christianity, etc
When we see some people performing sins, even if they say that's God is ok with that doesn't mean it's true.
And the "others" are not to be seen as the "false christians". Same for us.

If you still believe that they are true muslims even when you know that suicide and killing of civilians are forbidden then it means you want to believe that because you use illogic and try to find excuses for making this true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
One day in the hereafter is equivalent to 50,000 years on Earth. So a Muslim need to note they may be waiting for probably millions of years before judgment day.
Yes, one day for us is different.
I've heard the number of 40 (hadith). I don't know if it's days or months or years, but it will be a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the 'Martyrdom' thread.
This is one good reason why the Quran encourage and it an incentive the truer Muslims to commit real malignant martyrdom and cause the terrible evils and violence that is going around the world today.

The terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who believe on martyrdom is real. This is a shame because all these acts are relied and inspired from falsehoods [there is no God] and lies.
The fact is all these evils are triggered by personal existential psychology. If we deal with the personal psychology we could resolve all these religious based/inspired evils.
True, some people want to be marthyr because it's a special statut and some commit evil but it won't be the destination they whish. Those people just want to find a reason to die as a marthyr by using any means, it doesn't make it right however.
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Old 08-24-2015, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
I maybe need to explain better.

Someone who is muslim - for us - is :
1-Someone who submitted himself to God.
2-It's a monotheist who NEVER heard of God's Scriptures or haven't had the possibility to study it or have only heard bad/false things about that religion (so it's not his fault)

Nowadays we won't use the word "muslim" for a jew or a christian or any other monotheist (of nowadays again) but it's still can be correct depending of some aspects (like the period, the situation etc)

So someone like Abraham or Moses is called "muslim" even if they didn't follow the Quran but other rules/Scriptures.
You can't only define a muslim by your point 1, it depends of which people (from which period etc) we are talking about.
...<snip>

That's why i disagree with your understanding of the word "muslim", you use it only for those who follow the Quran only. You also put aside those who never heard of Islam but are/were monotheists.
So your definition is incorrect.
You did not get the point.

Note both 'man' and 'woman' are humans. But a man is not a woman.
Abraham and Muslims are submitters. But Abraham is not Muslim [Muhammad + Quran].

I understand the Quran claimed Abraham to be a Muslim. However I think that is used wrongly in the rhetorical sense. As I mentioned Muhammad use this sameness in attempt to portray they in the same light so it would be easier to convert the Jews and Christians.

The Quran also claimed some Jews, Christians and Sabeans are also "Muslims" but I don't think they would ever one to be labeled as 'Muslim' at all.

Why not just assert 'Abraham' and some Christians, Jews, and others are merely 'submitters' - full stop. That would be more truthful.
Btw do you understand what is being rhetorical. There is a degree to deception and twisting of the truth in being rhetorical. Politicians, debaters, salespersons, scammers, defrauders, etc. use such tactics or the time.



Quote:
The jihadist do a lot of things who are not permitted : they kill innocent people, they are sometimes in illegal business (drugs for ex), they commit suicide...

It's not because they scream Allahou Akbar and talk about God 24/7 that you must trust them.
If it was the case then 1.2 billion muslims would have follow them.

It means that "true christians" are those who killed millions of native indians, or the crusaders who even killed many christians in the middle east, that inquisition is part of Christianity, etc
When we see some people performing sins, even if they say that's God is ok with that doesn't mean it's true.
And the "others" are not to be seen as the "false christians". Same for us.

If you still believe that they are true muslims even when you know that suicide and killing of civilians are forbidden then it means you want to believe that because you use illogic and try to find excuses for making this true.
The main mission of the jihadist groups are to be truer Muslims and comply with as much as possible with the dictated of the Quran and its expositions. You will find Bin Laden and others quoting from the Quran. They [as Muslims] will not dare to do anything on the own otherwise according to the Quran they will go to hell.
However it is only natural in any group there are a small % of weirdoes who deviate and do drugs, stealing, and other evils not stipulated in the Quran.

What the Muslims jihadists and others of the like do is based on verses from the Quran.

The overriding doctrine and principle of the New Testament of Christ is 'Love your enemies' [give other cheek] etc.
Therefore what the Crusaders and inquisitors did was against Christianity in principle. Killing of native Americans has nothing to do with religion but rather tribalism and human nature.
If what you say is true of Christianity, then we should have Christian extremists taking up guns and killing non-Christians wherever they find them at the present like ISIS, Boko Haram, etc. Are there any evidence of that?

While the jihadists are trying to be more truer Muslims toward 100% of the Quran, the appx. 1.5 billion moderates Muslims are trying to more truer progressive humans and thus avoiding some of the extreme dictates of Islam.


Quote:
Yes, one day for us is different.
I've heard the number of 40 (hadith). I don't know if it's days or months or
years, but it will be a long time.
Though I refer to them, I do not put too much emphasis on the Hadiths.
70:4. (Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.
In another verse, it is 1,000 years
32:5. He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.

This is one case where the Quran is accused of having contradictions

Quote:
True, some people want to be marthyr because it's a special statut and some commit evil but it won't be the destination they whish. Those people just want to find a reason to die as a marthyr by using any means, it doesn't make it right however.
I have read the Quran extensively. Taking the Quran in its whole context, martyrdom is condoned and promoted in the Quran as a favorable path.

The point is such verses condoning martyrdom exist in the Quran.
The fact that they exist in the Quran is THE PROBLEM because no one human or group of human can dictate it is wrong.
The only solution is to get rid of them from the Quran but that cannot be done since the Quran is from Allah and is immutable.
That is why humanity is faced with a dilemma.
I believe there are solutions to resolve this dilemma and it starts with open discussions.
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Old 08-25-2015, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You did not get the point.

Note both 'man' and 'woman' are humans. But a man is not a woman.
Abraham and Muslims are submitters. But Abraham is not Muslim [Muhammad + Quran].

I understand the Quran claimed Abraham to be a Muslim. However I think that is used wrongly in the rhetorical sense. As I mentioned Muhammad use this sameness in attempt to portray they in the same light so it would be easier to convert the Jews and Christians.

The Quran also claimed some Jews, Christians and Sabeans are also "Muslims" but I don't think they would ever one to be labeled as 'Muslim' at all.

Why not just assert 'Abraham' and some Christians, Jews, and others are merely 'submitters' - full stop. That would be more truthful.
Btw do you understand what is being rhetorical. There is a degree to deception and twisting of the truth in being rhetorical. Politicians, debaters, salespersons, scammers, defrauders, etc. use such tactics or the time.



The main mission of the jihadist groups are to be truer Muslims and comply with as much as possible with the dictated of the Quran and its expositions. You will find Bin Laden and others quoting from the Quran. They [as Muslims] will not dare to do anything on the own otherwise according to the Quran they will go to hell.
However it is only natural in any group there are a small % of weirdoes who deviate and do drugs, stealing, and other evils not stipulated in the Quran.

What the Muslims jihadists and others of the like do is based on verses from the Quran.

The overriding doctrine and principle of the New Testament of Christ is 'Love your enemies' [give other cheek] etc.
Therefore what the Crusaders and inquisitors did was against Christianity in principle. Killing of native Americans has nothing to do with religion but rather tribalism and human nature.
If what you say is true of Christianity, then we should have Christian extremists taking up guns and killing non-Christians wherever they find them at the present like ISIS, Boko Haram, etc. Are there any evidence of that?

While the jihadists are trying to be more truer Muslims toward 100% of the Quran, the appx. 1.5 billion moderates Muslims are trying to more truer progressive humans and thus avoiding some of the extreme dictates of Islam.


Though I refer to them, I do not put too much emphasis on the Hadiths.
70:4. (Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.
In another verse, it is 1,000 years
32:5. He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.

This is one case where the Quran is accused of having contradictions

I have read the Quran extensively. Taking the Quran in its whole context, martyrdom is condoned and promoted in the Quran as a favorable path.

The point is such verses condoning martyrdom exist in the Quran.
The fact that they exist in the Quran is THE PROBLEM because no one human or group of human can dictate it is wrong.
The only solution is to get rid of them from the Quran but that cannot be done since the Quran is from Allah and is immutable.
That is why humanity is faced with a dilemma.
I believe there are solutions to resolve this dilemma and it starts with open discussions.
"Why not just assert 'Abraham' and some Christians, Jews, and others are merely 'submitters' - full stop. That would be more truthful."

The Arabic word for submitter is Muslim. We are saying some people of monotheistic religions are Submitters (Muslims)

A person who has no knowledge of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an is fully capable of being a Submitter (Muslim) Provided their lack of knowledge is not because of their own informed, free-will choices.
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