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Old 08-23-2015, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
Okay - Can either the gov't of Pakistan or the Taliban here on earth really declare their military members to be a martyr? Who, according to Islamic belief, gets to make the final decision as to who is a martyr?
This is actually an abuse of the necessity of consolations in times of inherent unavoidable grief.
It is very natural to attribute something very positive to the deceased to alleviate the angst of those who are grieving. Often many will cite all sort of heroic acts and other positives to console the relatives and other people.

Religion [for eschatological and soteriological purpose] MUST be independent from politics.
All governments should stop praising their soldiers who died in the name of martyrdom in the religious contexts. Such praising will indirectly influence other non-soldiers to do the same.
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Old 08-23-2015, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
I am trying to understand some various aspects of 'martyrdom' and would be interested how you personally think martyrdom works. If you are a Muslim, how would you (politely) explain these aspects of martyrdom to a non-Muslim?
Re the OP.
There are verses condoning malignant martyrdom within the 6236 verses and ideology of the Quran.
Religion is a critical necessity for the majority of individuals. It has to be taken on a personal basis to deal with one respective religious-psychological state.

The culmination of a Quran [whilst has its use but] containing malignant martyrdom elements is very unfortunate since it emerged within humanity.

The solution is to nullify and defang such malignant martyrdom verses starting from now.
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Old 08-24-2015, 06:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
2. The Quran advocate killing offensively and defensively when Islam is threatened or wronged.

Because there are no precise definition of what is meant by "threatened" or "wronged", that leave it wide opened to Muslims to interpret it very loosely and thus act violently and be evil towards non-Muslims.
You know, muslims have kings or presidents and government. They are the one who decide what is a threat or not.
I don't remember a muslim country who fighted against a non-muslim country because of those reasons above.
A lot of muslim countries are even allies with many non-muslims countries like you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
5. The reality is there are 1.5 billion Muslims around the world.
If the average rate of depressive people is 3%, then we have a pool of 45 million depressed Muslims around the world.
How about counting how many americans (just an ex i have nothing against them) are depressive, and as guns are allowed in this country how many can kill people.

Of course, you would say it has nothing to do with religion, but can you say if a depressive person will kill himself or other people for sure ? Have we even some pool about that that we can compare ?

Depressive people may be people who want to stay at home and see nobody for years, or just drinking all day long, etc ...
What about the level of faith of that person, what about his personality ? What about the fact that there's also women and even children who are depressive ?
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
You know, muslims have kings or presidents and government. They are the one who decide what is a threat or not.
I don't remember a muslim country who fighted against a non-muslim country because of those reasons above.
A lot of muslim countries are even allies with many non-muslims countries like you know.
Your interpretation in this case are way out as a Muslim.
What is final should be absolute objective decisions. Otherwise what we have are subjective ones and anything goes.
Kings or presidents and government cannot be the ultimate decision makers in Islam. This include the clergy. Allah is only the final arbiter and Allah is not around [it is impossible for God to exists as real any way].
I suggest you review your above thoughts against what is actually dictated in the Quran by Allah.



Quote:
How about counting how many americans (just an ex i have nothing against them) are depressive, and as guns are allowed in this country how many can kill people.

Of course, you would say it has nothing to do with religion, but can you say if a depressive person will kill himself or other people for sure ? Have we even some pool about that that we can compare ?

Depressive people may be people who want to stay at home and see nobody for years, or just drinking all day long, etc ...
What about the level of faith of that person, what about his personality ? What about the fact that there's also women and even children who are depressive ?
Again you are not up to date with 'depression' and its full range of variables in combination with many other factors.

I stated there is a pool of 45 millions depressive Muslims with a potential for malignant martyrdom that can be inspired from the verses within the Quran.
Of course not all 45 million will do it, surely 10,000 out of 45 million is possible.
Note it only took 18++ to do 911.
So with 45 million potential the reality of malignant martyrdom is a very possible reality. This is very frightening.

Whilst the depressed are more likely to perform martyrdom, the verses in the Quran also inspired the non-depressive to martyrdom under different conditions of stress and brainwashing.

My point is such verses condoning martyrdom should never have been included in any holy texts. The Quran made it worse because it is the word of God and as such the statements are absolute and cannot be edited.

This happened because the Quran was never from God but authored by a man or group of humans with some personal interests.
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Old 08-24-2015, 11:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
Thanks, GoCardinals, for the clarification. To keep this on track, let's all presume for the purpose of this thread that the one God is the God of Abraham - the same God worshiped by Muslims and people of the Book - albeit by different names - but not Hindus or Confucians or people who worship the sun or statues or things like that. This is the Islam board - let's work with that.

Fazira suggested that there are several different ways to achieve martyrdom according to some hadiths. Hmmm. Okay. Those were new to me. Thank you.

But the point Fazira made that I'd like to focus on is "I think that people in general tend to claim that this or that one is a marthyr depending of the side of the group. But in reality it's not always easy to say."

That is one of the things I'm trying to get to the bottom of. Say (and this really happened, but I've changed the names) Hamid is a very pious military officer in Pakistan. He was in a raid on a Taliban hideout in one of the Waziristans. Dawuud, who was a Talib, and Hamid both died during the ensuing gun battle. The Pakistani government issued a press release stating Hamid 'embraced martyrdom.' The Taliban issued a press release stating the 'the martyr Dawuud' died fighting an unjust government.

Okay - Can either the gov't of Pakistan or the Taliban here on earth really declare their military members to be a martyr?Who, according to Islamic belief, gets to make the final decision as to who is a martyr?
To answer the bold part above
ALLAH.

Between Taliban vs Pak army, there is a huge probability that perhaps ONE is right and the other is wrong. Both parties claim that their deceased was a martyr.

ALLAH knows who is martyr and who is not. * (read below)

We will know about it on the day of judgement as to who was a martyr and who is not in this scenario.

Even the family and supporters of Benazir Bhutto call her a martyr - so what ? Just because a Muslim group call someone a martyr may not make him a martyr in front of Allah. Muslims are humans and humans make mistakes.

And frankly speaking, we as humans calling someone a martyr doesn't really mean much because we cannot reward the martyr with paradise. Can we?

* But what you would like to ponder upon is a verse in the amazing Quran that relates to the scenario you presented where both parties in the fight are followers of the same faith. (I am glad you brought up this interesting scenario)

Please read Quran 49:9

This will tell you that yes indeed it is possible that two MUSLIM groups may involve in a fight (due various reasons, political, greed, misunderstanding etc).
And it also indicates that just because a group identifies itself as "Muslim" may NOT automatically make it rightous in everything it does - including a fight.
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Secure, Undisclosed
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That is an exceptional answer to my question, GoCardinals, and I would give you positive rating but I just gave you one for your earlier answer. C-D wants me to wait to give you another one. So I owe you one. Thank you.

Your answer matches one given by Woodrow LI on another thread (in March 2015) that talks about martyrdom, and both your answer and his are very clear: Allah is the only one who can decide who will and who will not be granted martyrdom. SO unless someone disagrees, let's move ahead with that as the right answer.

And thank you for the reference to Quran 49:9. I found it and read it.

Seems to me that in that paragraph (I'm not sure what you call it - sorry) both sides could honestly be convinced they are right; both sides could believe they were the 'just' side. Therefore, both sides would claim their deceased were the martyrs - just like the example I gave above. But in reality, as you point out, only Allah really knows which man he will grant martyrdom - if indeed He grants it to either of them. (I suppose He might not grant it to either side.)

So here is my next question: In some other religions (like Christianity, I think, and maybe the Jewish religion), it is considered blasphemy to claim to make a decision that only God can make. Is it the same way for those who practice Islam? Would Allah be displeased with a human who presumed to declare someone a martyr when it really isn't a human's decision to make?

(And I note that an earlier poster - I think it was Continuum - said that humans ought to stop using that term for several different reasons.)

Thanks, R-3

Last edited by Rescue3; 08-25-2015 at 05:47 PM..
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:34 PM
 
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Continuum: Your work is very, very reasoned and very, very deep - much deeper than I expected to go when I asked my questions. So bear with me - I'm still digesting it. Thanks for participating.

Here's a question I'd like to pose to you (um... while I try to fully grasp what you have already laid out).

Some bad guys co-opt really young, really naive Muslims to do some really stupid things by promising them martyrdom status. One of your earlier answers, GoCardinal's most recent answer and an earlier answer by Fazira about hadiths seem to suggest that if you have an agenda of any sort, you can find something in the Quran that you can interpret as supporting your agenda. Even a really, really bad agenda. (Think: AQI or its successor, ISIS.) So here is your question: If you are a Muslim, how do you suppose Allah would be likely to think of people who use promises of martyrdom - which only He can award - to get such young, naive people to do such bad things - and why?

(If you aren't a Muslim, take a whack at the question anyway, but please answer it in the context of how you think a Muslim would answer it - because I'm going to want Muslims to comment on it. Thanks!)

Last edited by Rescue3; 08-25-2015 at 05:45 PM..
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Old 08-25-2015, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
Continuum: Your work is very, very reasoned and very, very deep - much deeper than I expected to go when I asked my questions. So bear with me - I'm still digesting it. Thanks for participating.

Here's a question I'd like to pose to you (um... while I try to fully grasp what you have already laid out).

Some bad guys co-opt really young, really naive Muslims to do some really stupid things by promising them martyrdom status. One of your earlier answers, GoCardinal's most recent answer and an earlier answer by Fazira about hadiths seem to suggest that if you have an agenda of any sort, you can find something in the Quran that you can interpret as supporting your agenda. Even a really, really bad agenda. (Think: AQI or its successor, ISIS.) So here is your question: If you are a Muslim, how do you suppose Allah would be likely to think of people who use promises of martyrdom - which only He can award - to get such young, naive people to do such bad things - and why?

(If you aren't a Muslim, take a whack at the question anyway, but please answer it in the context of how you think a Muslim would answer it - because I'm going to want Muslims to comment on it. Thanks!)
A Muslim attempting to answer your question.

"If you are a Muslim, how do you suppose Allah would be likely to think of people who use promises of martyrdom - which only He can award - to get such young, naive people to do such bad things - and why? "

As Allaah(saws) is beyond all Human attributes I have no way of knowing what he would think about anything. but for a person to claim he can offer someone Martyrdom, he is claiming the ability to do something he does not have the power to do.

From what I understand is if a person presents a false statement about Islam and a person commits a sin/crime/error as a result of what the person said, that person will receive the same punishment as the person who does the act. The person who told the falsehood is an accomplice of the person doing the act and equally guilty. the person doing the act is also guilty of a related act. The failure to verify the truth of what he was told. All Muslims are obligated to question all things, including interpretations of the Qur'an. As we have no ordained Clergy we have no Human authority that has the right to state their interpretation is anything more than an opinion.

A more simple answer: a person leading a naive person to do evil, is as guilty as if he had done the act himself. Just my opinion Astagfirullah (If I am wrong may Allaah forgive me)
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Old 08-25-2015, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
Continuum: Your work is very, very reasoned and very, very deep - much deeper than I expected to go when I asked my questions. So bear with me - I'm still digesting it. Thanks for participating.
As a concerned citizen of humanity, that is my mission in life, i.e. to go as deep as possible so as to get as near as possible to the truth in a reasoned, rational, philosophically-wise manner and contribute to the overall well-being of humanity. I put a LOT of effort in this direction and hope others will do as well so we can make the world a more harmonious place to live in.

Quote:
Here's a question I'd like to pose to you (um... while I try to fully grasp what you have already laid out).

Some bad guys co-opt really young, really naive Muslims to do some really stupid things by promising them martyrdom status. One of your earlier answers, GoCardinal's most recent answer and an earlier answer by Fazira about hadiths seem to suggest that if you have an agenda of any sort, you can find something in the Quran that you can interpret as supporting your agenda. Even a really, really bad agenda. (Think: AQI or its successor, ISIS.) So here is your question: If you are a Muslim, how do you suppose Allah would be likely to think of people who use promises of martyrdom - which only He can award - to get such young, naive people to do such bad things - and why?

(If you aren't a Muslim, take a whack at the question anyway, but please answer it in the context of how you think a Muslim would answer it - because I'm going to want Muslims to comment on it. Thanks!)
As not-a-theist and a concerned citizen of humanity, I'll provide the answer in terms of relevant and necessary perspectives.

1. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and one has to understand their psychological states of each & every Muslim and put oneself into their shoes and reflect on how each Muslim would think when s/he is faced [interpret] with the verses of the Quran directly or indirectly [via clergies and sermons].

2. The central core of Islam and being a Muslim per se is leveraged primarily on the Quran.
Thus to be a truer [or as perfect as possible] Muslim can only meant the degree and intensity of one's compliance to the dictate within the Quran. We can then rate the 1.5 billion Muslims in term of High, Medium, or Low compliance.

3. The measure and rating of one's compliance is on the Last Day, i.e. Judgment Day in the hereafter. The performance of each Muslim in the World is graded in degrees and ranked. e.g.
56.7 And you become [of] three kinds
i.e. in terms of compliance
1. Highest - First Class honors - on the right hand 56:10
2. Medium - Moderate Muslims - on the right hand 56:8
3. Low - Sinners and infidels - on the left hand. 56:9
4. A Muslim is on a Journey [journeying] and started off from a very real [and subliminal] horrible psychological state of terrible fears and terror on Earth and the worst of it awaits Muslims on the Last Day.[many prominent verses on this]

5. The Quran promote itself as having the ability [via the power of Allah] to ease the terrible angst of the Muslims. Muslims are invited to sign a contract [covenant] with Allah with a promise of internal Peace [relieved from angst] with eternal life and relished with superlative rewards [virgins included] in Paradise.

In exchange for what is promised, a Muslim MUST COMPLY strictly with whatever is stipulated by Allah in the Quran, and the Muslim's performance will be 'calculated' and rated on Judgment Day.
It is not Allah's duty to serve mankind but merely to facilitate where necessary.
Thus it is the imperative obligated DUTY of a Muslim to SERVE ALLAH and ACT IN ALLAH's CAUSE to the maximoum in exchange for what is promised on the Last Day.


6. Now, what is stipulated in the Quran include verses that condone martyrdom and they carry the higher weightages and ratings that will give the Muslim a greater security of gaining First Class Honor on Judgment Day. i.e. re 56:10

7. There are 1.5 billion Muslims and they come with different psychological profile [1], if 20% has the urge to consider this higher merit point from martyrdom, then there is a pool of 300 million Muslims having the impulse to do it. I mentioned the most likely are from the pool of the 45 million pool. There are many from other potential pool of millions who are willing to perform martyrdom.

8. It is from the potential pools of malignant martyrdom that we get the reality of the terrible evils and violence that are committed by suicide-bombers.

9. True, people with an agenda will exploit the above. In the first place such vulnerable martyrdom verses should not be in any holy texts of any religions to be available for exploitation.

10. However with the drive for higher merit points, SOME Muslims will hope or unconsciously create or misperceived situations to give themselves the opportunity to execute martyrdom to expedite and realize their security in heaven with as a First Class Honor Muslim [56:7].
In addition, Muhammad cajoled Muslims to compete with each other to be better Muslims. This is a catalyst lend more leverage for the vulnerable to adopt martyrdom.

11. Note: There is no central authority [& Allah is not available on hand] to decide whose interpretation is right or wrong. The jihadist will thus go the extra mile to ensure greater compliance and there are no qualified fallible human to decide they are right or wrong. Allah is the final arbiter on Judgment Day. Whilst martyrdom is fiction, it is translated into terrible evils and violence committed by jihadist martyrs in reality.

Quote:
..how do you suppose Allah would be likely to think of people who use
promises of martyrdom?
From the above, it is obvious. Strictly in accordance to the Quran, the greater a Muslim comply to what is stipulated in the Quran [especially those with higher ratings] the greater will Allah be VERY pleased with him in fulfilling the terms of his contract of salvation at the highest level.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-25-2015 at 09:45 PM..
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Old 08-25-2015, 08:43 PM
 
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Some verses relating to martyrdom;
4:69. Whoso obeyeth Allah and [obey] the messenger, they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favour, of the Prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they.

4:74. Let those [Muslims] fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso [Muslims] fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

22:58. Those [Muslims] who fled their homes for the cause of Allah and then were slain or died, Allah verily will provide for them a good provision. Lo! Allah, He verily is Best of all who make provision.
22:59. Assuredly He will cause them [Muslims] to enter by an entry [paradise] that they [Muslims] will love. Lo! Allah verily is knower, Indulgent.

33:23. Of the believers [Muslims] are men who are true to that which they covenanted with Allah. Some of them have paid their vow by death (in battle), and some of them still are waiting; and they have not altered in the least;
33:24. That Allah may reward the true men [Muslims] for their truth, and punish the hypocrites if He will, or relent toward them (if He will). Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
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