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Old 08-27-2015, 06:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

...

We have no sort of central agency that approves of Mosques or appoints clergy. There are many ways a person can be an Imam. In some Muslim majority Nations The role of Imam is a government post and Imams are appointed by the State.

In other places Mosques are built by local communities or even individuals in such case whoever built the Mosque will usually pick an Imam or in some cases hire one or like in the USA the majority of Mosques do not have an Imam and usually the oldest person present at prayer time assumes the role. since I am almost always the oldest person present, when I get to go to a Mosque, I end up being the Imam. there are a number of titles you will hear, they are not religious titles in the concept of Christian ot Jewish clergy. They have no religious authority.

Some Titles you have probably hear

Imam--the person who leads the obligatory prayers

Muezzein--The person who gives the call to prayer (Athan)

Sheik--a bit confusing It is actually a title of respect very similar to Mister. There is a female equivalent, but at the moment I can't remember it. Some people that get called Sheik-an older person that is obviously well beyond the age of 50. A land owner, a government official, an employer, a person who has acheived a level of education comparable to a Ph.d Especially for a person who has achieved an advance degree in Islamic Studies.

Mullah-- For Shi'ites Mufty a person who has earned a Ph,d is Islamic Jurisprudence, is qualified to be a Sharia Judge and who has been appointed by the Government to serve as Mufti-- a posistion similar to a supreme court judge. I believe presently the only nation that has Muftis is Saudi Arabia and Iran is the only nation that has Mullahs. (I may be mistaken about this, but I am not aware of any other nations that have Muftis or Mullahs. As for Shi'ite I am not certain about their clergy, I do know the have Imams and Mullahs but I am not certain as to how a person acquires either title.
Thank you, Woodrow. I thought there was some sort of hierarchy among clerics - I've obviously got that wrong. Decades ago I lived in the middle east and was told that only an Imam could issue a fatwah because it required that level of religious authority. (Hence, Osama bin Laden could not issue a fatwah.) I'm guessing now that was a government thing (it was Saudi Arabia).

I just finished a fascinating book on the life of Ruhollah Khomeini (by Taheri). He was a mullah and then was selected to be an ayatollah and then a grand ayatollah. Upon his return to Tehran in February 1979, he assumed the title Imam on his own and became the first Imam in Shi'ism since the Mahdi. In fact, he is the only person in Shia history who has claimed that title (since Mahdi). Even today's Supreme Leader in Iran does not claim that title - he is a Grand Ayatollah.

I'm going to have to revisit my understanding of the Sheikh position in Lebanon. There are a number of events I examined where Sheikhs were involved in the role of a religious authority. Heck, allied nations tried to recruit local sheikhs because they were the virtual leaders of the communities they represented.

Thanks for the clarifications - when I can give you another positive rep, I'll send you one.

R-3.
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Old 08-27-2015, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
Thank you, Woodrow. I thought there was some sort of hierarchy among clerics - I've obviously got that wrong. Decades ago I lived in the middle east and was told that only an Imam could issue a fatwah because it required that level of religious authority. (Hence, Osama bin Laden could not issue a fatwah.) I'm guessing now that was a government thing (it was Saudi Arabia).

I just finished a fascinating book on the life of Ruhollah Khomeini (by Taheri). He was a mullah and then was selected to be an ayatollah and then a grand ayatollah. Upon his return to Tehran in February 1979, he assumed the title Imam on his own and became the first Imam in Shi'ism since the Mahdi. In fact, he is the only person in Shia history who has claimed that title (since Mahdi). Even today's Supreme Leader in Iran does not claim that title - he is a Grand Ayatollah.

I'm going to have to revisit my understanding of the Sheikh position in Lebanon. There are a number of events I examined where Sheikhs were involved in the role of a religious authority. Heck, allied nations tried to recruit local sheikhs because they were the virtual leaders of the communities they represented.

Thanks for the clarifications - when I can give you another positive rep, I'll send you one.

R-3.
Speaking as a Sunni. Only a Mufti can issue a Fatwa. A fatwah is a a legal opinion as to the justification of a law. This is a decision relating to Islamic Jurisprudence and the Mufti's opinion. As this is an opinion, it is not binding upon Muslims. We can agree or disagree with a fatwa based upon what we have found. However in common usage the opinions of any Muslim seem to get called fatwas. Especially if it is stated by a well known Imam or scholar. A scholar being a personwho has avhieved a Degree in a field of Islamic Studies.

To the Shi'ite a fatwa is a divine command issued through an ayatoullah.

For a Sunni the the duties of an Imam are supposed to be:

1. Lead the obligatory prayers
2. Be responsible for Full maintenance of the Mosque including paying the utility bills
3. Deliver the Friday Kutbah (a brief sermon relating to local concerns)

Things an Imam is not supposed to do:
1. Preach
2. Teach
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Old 08-27-2015, 04:36 PM
 
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Wow... (Okay, we're way off topic, but if the mod will grant us some latitude...)

I think in Christianity and Judaism, the local cleric's main jobs are to teach and preach. If an Imam cannot teach or preach among the Sunni, who does? How would a young Sunni learn about his or her religion?
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Old 08-27-2015, 05:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
GoCardinals - that was very eloquently stated - thank you. Truly beautiful. And now I think I get it.

Wishing good things for the deceased is a good thing, including wishes for the privileges that accompany martyrdom. Saying bad things about the deceased is not only impolite, it is actually addressed in the hadith as something you should not do. (I didn't know that.) So when I read about some government or group or family referring to one who died in terms of martyrdom, I should really understand it in terms of them wishing the deceased well and hoping that Allah will accept the person as a martyr - not stating it as a fact. Got it. Thank you. Especially the story about what your elders prayed for - that makes much more sense now.

With respect to humans making decisions for Allah, I will give you an example of the kinds of things I am struggling with, but I will not use names. In 1985, a 16 year old boy was kidnapped in Beirut. His father, a pious Shia, was being held by a Shi'ite militia because he had been in an accident that hurt a militia leader's family member. The boy was told that he needed to drive a car into an Israeli position and blow himself up in order for his father to be released. He was given a bulletproof vest and told it would probably save his life (it would not have). He was also told by a Shi'ite Sheikh, who was a cleric at a mosque, that if he died he would be a martyr and he would go directly to Paradise. The boy was not very pious and did not believe the Sheikh, but did the mission anyway because he wanted his father to be freed. (Fortunately, the boy was caught before he got to the target and survived.) That same Sheikh blessed the similar operation of another boy, aged 14, who wanted to go blow himself up specifically because it would make him a martyr. The head of the militia referred him to the cleric, who reviewed and blessed the mission, and wrote a letter telling the militia commander that the boy would indeed be a martyr, so it was okay to send him on this mission. (I have a copy of the letter.) The boy was allowed to proceed. Unfortunately, that little boy died in his own explosion. In both cases, the religious adviser, called a Sheikh (variously spelled), decided that carrying out the act would confer martyr status upon each of the two boys. The first one did not believe the Sheikh, while the second one did.

If you would like to give me your ideas on these two cases, I would be very interested and respectful of your thoughts. I know you said humans making these promises would be like so much hot air coming from a human, but this guy was a cleric at the local mosque. Lots of people took his words very seriously. If you would like, perhaps you want to address these two cases specifically. As I said, you are very eloquent in describing your beliefs.

Finally, thank you for the description of the Quran's first two chapters and the nine qualities - I had no idea about that. But it sure explains how people who are not Muslims can pull a quote or sentence or paragraph from some part of the Quran and use it in a way that a well-studied Muslim would not. Thanks for that insight.

(I'd give you more positive reps, but I'm still not allowed to yet. I'll drop one on you unexpectedly some day. Thanks again!)
OK, that's an easy one as the good ole Woodrow has already answered in post 18.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

From what I understand is if a person presents a false statement about Islam and a person commits a sin/crime/error as a result of what the person said, that person will receive the same punishment as the person who does the act. The person who told the falsehood is an accomplice of the person doing the act and equally guilty. the person doing the act is also guilty of a related act. The failure to verify the truth of what he was told. All Muslims are obligated to question all things, including interpretations of the Qur'an. As we have no ordained Clergy we have no Human authority that has the right to state their interpretation is anything more than an opinion.

A more simple answer: a person leading a naive person to do evil, is as guilty as if he had done the act himself. Just my opinion Astagfirullah (If I am wrong may Allaah forgive me)
So, lets look into your example of the Shi'te Clerk and topic of Martyr.

From an Islamic perspective of martyrs of war: In general terms, it would be a Muslim who is in a state of combat war (where one of the opponent usually has to die or has a high risk of dying). And this war is not a pre-preemptive attack by a Muslim army on a nation or on an army. This war would be mostly likely be when an army/soldier has attacked on an Islamic land and Muslim soldiers are fighting to defend their country. If a Muslim loses his life during this kind of a fight with the enemy then perhaps he qualifies to be a martyr (as per my limited knowledge).

Now look at the blue text above and use this logic. If I was asked by the same cleric to blow myself up and I will become a martyr, I would have came back with a question.

1 - Suicide is strictly forbidden in Islam. How can I be a martyr if I knowingly kill myself?

2 - Quran 5:2 says, ... if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind....

How can I blow myself among innocent civilians, kill kids, women, elderly and civilians, and become a martyr in the light of above two points?


Now, there a few scenarios here.

1 - The Shi'te Scholar may have twisted the quranic interpretation to support his own political agenda.
2 - He could have misunderstood Quranic versus
3- He was a sell out (there are, so called, "Islamic scholars" in the Muslim worlds who are actually paid agents of certain anti-Islamic forces. I know you may laugh at this but trust me, they are there. And they have astray many masses)


So I come back to Woodrow's point. We are obligated to question and gain knowledge.

Blindly following someone may not be accepted as an excuse for being on wrong path on the judgement day.

And Quran has warned and answered this on at least two following occasions that I know of

5:77 Say, "O People of the Scripture, do not exceed limits in your religion beyond the truth and do not follow the inclinations of a people who had gone astray before and misled many and have strayed from the soundness of the way."


Quran: 7:38 ..... Our Lord, these had misled us, so give them a double punishment of the Fire. He will say, "For each is double, but you do not know".
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Old 08-27-2015, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
Wow... (Okay, we're way off topic, but if the mod will grant us some latitude...)

I think in Christianity and Judaism, the local cleric's main jobs are to teach and preach. If an Imam cannot teach or preach among the Sunni, who does? How would a young Sunni learn about his or her religion?
For the vast majority one's learning of Islam comes from their Mother. It is said that Islam is learned at your Mother's feet. (In other words you follow her actions)

sometimes a local community will hire scholars to be teachers of Islam, but they are not clergy (although theses days some seem to think they are)

Another source of learning Islam is from older relatives. In an Islamic nation there are Madrassas in which Religious education is taught by scholars.

Another source is to study the Madhabs. Typically all that attend a Mosque will adhere to the same Madhab. Much of Islam, perhaps the majority is learned by observing other older Muslims.

In the USA there are some Islamic Centers that provide Islamic basics and Arabic language courses. But Generally speaking Islam is learned through the Familty. The basics are very simple and can be learned in a very short time. Commentary or interpretations of the Qur'an are generally not taught except at the college level.

What many Non-Muslims view as Islamic schools are the children learning to be Hafiz--Memoriz the Qur'an fully and able to recite it with proper tajweed. Usually they are for children from the Ages of 7-10. What upsets some Non-Muslims is the fact the teaching is rote memorization with no teaching of meanings or interpretations.

Teaching of Meanings and interpretations is not encourged until after adulthood and the person has the maturity to question all things in a peaceful manner. Islam essentially is not taught, it is learned, each of us being responsible for our learning sources. There is no standardized form of Teaching except for the Memorization methods for those who desire to be Hafiz.

All of this is within the topic of the OP, as it is showing that Martyrdom is not what most Muslim are trained for. This was a great injustice done to young Muslims in an attempt to fight the Russians that were invading Afghanistan. Sadly the result was we ended up with hundreds perhaps thousands of young people that were trained to be suicide baombers and no longer had an enemy. The result being they became radical forms of Taliban and al-Qaeda.
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Old 08-27-2015, 07:51 PM
 
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Okay, you two are officially my heroes.

I have a really early morning tomorrow and I'll try to crank something intelligent out then. But think about what each of you has said in the context of what the other has said (because I will think about it all night long). We teach very young people the rote memorization of the Quran early, but not the understanding of what it truly means until they reach adulthood.

If I was a predator, that places our young Muslims in a perfect position for me to exploit them in the period in between learning the words of the Quran and truly understanding it. Not surprisingly, the average age of the offenders in the events I study is right in the middle of that period.

Every criminologist in the world knows that offending starts somewhere around 12 - 14 years old; peaks about 18 and offending stops right around 21 years of age. (If you are still offending at 30, you are a 'career criminal' whom we will eventually treat as a 'lifer' in a penitentiary somewhere.)

Just carry this train of thought forward and you can see where I am going: Are adolescent (12 to 18 year old) Muslims learning just enough to be exploitable, but not enough to understand (or question) what the bad guy is trying to get them to do? And therefore are we culturally making our young Muslims vulnerable to being misled into doing terrible things...?

Hmmmm. Gotta go rest; I'll revisit this in the AM.

Thanks very much to both of you for your insights; this is fascinating...
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Old 08-28-2015, 03:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post

So, lets look into your example of the Shi'te Clerk and topic of Martyr.

From an Islamic perspective of martyrs of war: In general terms, it would be a Muslim who is in a state of combat war (where one of the opponent usually has to die or has a high risk of dying)...

Now look at the blue text above and use this logic. If I was asked by the same cleric to blow myself up and I will become a martyr, I would have came back with a question.

Now, there a few scenarios here.

1 - The Shi'te Scholar may have twisted the quranic interpretation to support his own political agenda.
2 - He could have misunderstood Quranic versus
3- He was a sell out (there are, so called, "Islamic scholars" in the Muslim worlds who are actually paid agents of certain anti-Islamic forces. I know you may laugh at this but trust me, they are there. And they have astray many masses)

So I come back to Woodrow's point. We are obligated to question and gain knowledge.

Quran: 7:38 ..... Our Lord, these had misled us, so give them a double punishment of the Fire. He will say, "For each is double, but you do not know".
GoCardinals:

During the times of the two scenarios I referenced, Israeli forces had occupied southern Lebanon for two and a half years, so a person could maybe argue that there was a state of war or occupation of Muslim lands.

But there is no way to talk around the prohibition of suicide. One guy who tried, Sheikh Fadlallah, was a very prominent cleric in Lebanon at the time (he has since died of old age). He said that if a man killed ten enemies with his own death, then he would die a martyr. He therefore blessed these kids (not the two above - that was another guy). Fadlallah's statement did two things - there was a tremendous uptick of suicide bombings in 1985, and western intelligence officials decided (incorrectly) he was the guy behind Hezbollah and they tried to kill him. They missed, and 85 innocent townspeople died instead. Then he withdrew his support for suicide bombings and, in 1986 through 1989, they dropped precipitously.

From all of the research I have done, I'm guessing it is #1 - these guys have a political agenda and are twisting Quranic interpretation to fit their needs.

I very much like the idea of suicide bombers' recruiters and escorts getting double punishment. Were it not for these predators, the kids would never get drawn into this maelstrom.

So now I go to 'we are obligated to question and gain knowledge' part of your answer - same as Woodrow's:

How can a 14 to 16 year old Muslim kid, living in a land occupied by non-Muslims, question the most senior cleric in the whole country? If Fadlallah says, 'that isn't suicide if you kill ten enemies,' how is a kid with a 14 - 16 year old's level of Quranic understanding supposed to question him?

I'll let that question soak for awhile and again, thank you for your insights.

Have a happy and peaceful Friday, R-3
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Old 08-28-2015, 04:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
For the vast majority one's learning of Islam comes from their Mother. It is said that Islam is learned at your Mother's feet. (In other words you follow her actions)

sometimes a local community will hire scholars to be teachers of Islam, but they are not clergy (although theses days some seem to think they are)

Another source of learning Islam is from older relatives. In an Islamic nation there are Madrassas in which Religious education is taught by scholars.

Another source is to study the Madhabs. Typically all that attend a Mosque will adhere to the same Madhab. Much of Islam, perhaps the majority is learned by observing other older Muslims.

In the USA there are some Islamic Centers that provide Islamic basics and Arabic language courses. But Generally speaking Islam is learned through the Familty. The basics are very simple and can be learned in a very short time. Commentary or interpretations of the Qur'an are generally not taught except at the college level.

What many Non-Muslims view as Islamic schools are the children learning to be Hafiz--Memoriz the Qur'an fully and able to recite it with proper tajweed. Usually they are for children from the Ages of 7-10. What upsets some Non-Muslims is the fact the teaching is rote memorization with no teaching of meanings or interpretations.

Teaching of Meanings and interpretations is not encourged until after adulthood and the person has the maturity to question all things in a peaceful manner. Islam essentially is not taught, it is learned, each of us being responsible for our learning sources. There is no standardized form of Teaching except for the Memorization methods for those who desire to be Hafiz.

All of this is within the topic of the OP, as it is showing that Martyrdom is not what most Muslim are trained for. This was a great injustice done to young Muslims in an attempt to fight the Russians that were invading Afghanistan. Sadly the result was we ended up with hundreds perhaps thousands of young people that were trained to be suicide baombers and no longer had an enemy. The result being they became radical forms of Taliban and al-Qaeda.

Good Morning, Woodrow:

Mothers, family and elders. Okay... Hmm. I suppose it is like that in Christian and Jewish households, but they supplement it with things like bible study evenings and Sunday school and - I forget the name, but Jewish kids have their version of Sunday School at the temple on Saturdays. But if Muslims rely on the family to impart religion to their young, I could see that as a bonding mechanism for the family. That would be a good thing.

I'm familiar with madrassas, but unfortunately, not in a good way. There are a few that were run by very radical people who literally turned them into suicide bomber factories. Families sent their kids there because the families could not support them, and the madrassas' clerics chained the kids in rooms and them farmed them out to militant organizations. Really ugly exploitation of children.

I do not know what a Madhab is. I'm sorry. Can you explain?

Ironically, Afghanistan was the last country to get into the suicide bombing thing - Iran started it in Lebanon. From there it spread to Israel and Sri Lanka, followed by a period of experimentation by groups all over the world. (Even the IRA and the FARC tried them in Northern Ireland and Colombia, respectively. They failed both places because the Roman Catholic populations were so disgusted that the terrorists were losing their support among the people.)

Then al-Qaeda started using them in Africa and the US. They really took off in October 2003 in Iraq and I think more eventually occurred in that country (Iraq) than all others in the world. Although there were one or two in Afghanistan during the early 2000s, they didn't really take off there until about 2005. The Taliban were the last to adopt the practice and they didn't do it very well at the start. Took a while to catch on.

Anyway, with your explanation of Hafiz, which I now understand to mean 'learned the Quran but not really a thorough understanding of it' and learning from one's family and elders, I pose a similar question to you: Could young Muslims (12 - 18 or so) be more susceptible to religious manipulation because of the cultural way Islam is taught?

And I'll let you ponder that while wishing you also have a peaceful and happy Friday.

Thanks, R-3.
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Old 08-28-2015, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
Good Morning, Woodrow:

Mothers, family and elders. Okay... Hmm. I suppose it is like that in Christian and Jewish households, but they supplement it with things like bible study evenings and Sunday school and - I forget the name, but Jewish kids have their version of Sunday School at the temple on Saturdays. But if Muslims rely on the family to impart religion to their young, I could see that as a bonding mechanism for the family. That would be a good thing.
Family teaching is the primary method of learning Islam in most places. To such a degree that most children that are raised in an Islamic household has sufficient knowledge to be an Imam by the time they are 10 years old. While that might sound impressive, it is not very difficult. The primary duty of the Imam is to lead the 5 daily obligatory prayers. Actually Salat is a better choice. While Salat translates into English as prayer, it is actually closer to a religious service. There is no exact English word for Salat. with just minor variations each Salat is the same. typically they will last about 10-15 minutes. The length will differ depending on what part of the Qur'an the Imam chooses to recite in each rakat. He has to recite a minimum of 9 consecutive lines from a surah of the entire surat if he chooses one of the Short Surat. The Short Surat are consider to be the Surah from 74 to 114. examples explain best.

Here Salat Fajr, the morning Salat said any time in the morning between first light and the rim of the sun appearing above the Horizon



The other 4 Salat are very similar





Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
I'm familiar with madrassas, but unfortunately, not in a good way. There are a few that were run by very radical people who literally turned them into suicide bomber factories. Families sent their kids there because the families could not support them, and the madrassas' clerics chained the kids in rooms and them farmed them out to militant organizations. Really ugly exploitation of children.
Sadly that is what happened in Afghanistan. Here is a good place to make note as to what Taliban means. It is not a bad word and simply means student. The Taliban of the Afghanistan Madrassas made the media assume taliban were some form of organized militants. to Arabic speakers it is nonsensical to think of Taliban as being an organization

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
I do not know what a Madhab is. I'm sorry. Can you explain?
that is understandable. It can take a long time to explain what a madhab is. Basically it is a school of Islamic Jurisprudence --Sharia. But definetly not what the Media has portrayed as Sharia. There are several things that get called madhabs, Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, Shafi'i, Sufi, Wahhabi, Jafa'ari, 12er, and others. Most Sunni only recognize 4 as being Madhabs those being.Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi and Shafi'i A Sunni should learn about all 4 but select only one to live by.

A quick introduction to the Sunni Madhabs can be read here:

Introduction to Madhabs --Hanafi and beyond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
Ironically, Afghanistan was the last country to get into the suicide bombing thing - Iran started it in Lebanon. From there it spread to Israel and Sri Lanka, followed by a period of experimentation by groups all over the world. (Even the IRA and the FARC tried them in Northern Ireland and Colombia, respectively. They failed both places because the Roman Catholic populations were so disgusted that the terrorists were losing their support among the people.)

Then al-Qaeda started using them in Africa and the US. They really took off in October 2003 in Iraq and I think more eventually occurred in that country (Iraq) than all others in the world. Although there were one or two in Afghanistan during the early 2000s, they didn't really take off there until about 2005. The Taliban were the last to adopt the practice and they didn't do it very well at the start. Took a while to catch on.
The tamil tigers carried suicide bombing to a science. they get credit for inventing the suicide vest. Suicide attacks have been used by people in every faith. The Japajese in WWll had their Kamikaze pilots, Korea had it's sucide wave attacks, which were quite fearsome to vets of Korea, in Vietnam we were faced with suicide bombers under 5 years olf. Also young mothers carrying a baby with a grenade in the baby's diaper. Pulling the pin on the grenade just before walking up to American soldiers. suicide bombers work as a weapon because they defy human concepts on the value of life. the biggest injustice, being the young folks that get brainwashed into being suicide bombers. Evil old men do not become suicide bombers, they con young naive youth to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
Anyway, with your explanation of Hafiz, which I now understand to mean 'learned the Quran but not really a thorough understanding of it' and learning from one's family and elders, I pose a similar question to you: Could young Muslims (12 - 18 or so) be more susceptible to religious manipulation because of the cultural way Islam is taught?

And I'll let you ponder that while wishing you also have a peaceful and happy Friday.

Thanks, R-3.
A Hafiz has memorized the Qur'an so well that if a person mispronounces even one letter they can catch it. A Hafiz is expected to be able to recite any ayyat immediately just by being given the Surah and number. All Hafiz recite the Qur'an identically down to the point that they recite at the same speed. It takes roughly 30 hours to recite the full Qur'an with proper pronunciation. Every Hafiz will recite the entire Qur'an within a minute or 2 of the time it takes any other Hafiz to recite it.

All young people between the ages of 12-18 are highly susceptible to religious manipulation. It is the age frame within which a person first becomes aware of having a bicarmal brain. It is a sensory experience that borders upon a religious revelation and along with raging hormones makes a person in that age range very susceptible to "Religious Experiences"
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Old 08-28-2015, 12:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
GoCardinals:

During the times of the two scenarios I referenced, Israeli forces had occupied southern Lebanon for two and a half years, so a person could maybe argue that there was a state of war or occupation of Muslim lands.

But there is no way to talk around the prohibition of suicide. One guy who tried, Sheikh Fadlallah, was a very prominent cleric in Lebanon at the time (he has since died of old age). He said that if a man killed ten enemies with his own death, then he would die a martyr. He therefore blessed these kids (not the two above - that was another guy). Fadlallah's statement did two things - there was a tremendous uptick of suicide bombings in 1985, and western intelligence officials decided (incorrectly) he was the guy behind Hezbollah and they tried to kill him. They missed, and 85 innocent townspeople died instead. Then he withdrew his support for suicide bombings and, in 1986 through 1989, they dropped precipitously.

From all of the research I have done, I'm guessing it is #1 - these guys have a political agenda and are twisting Quranic interpretation to fit their needs.

I very much like the idea of suicide bombers' recruiters and escorts getting double punishment. Were it not for these predators, the kids would never get drawn into this maelstrom.

So now I go to 'we are obligated to question and gain knowledge' part of your answer - same as Woodrow's:

How can a 14 to 16 year old Muslim kid, living in a land occupied by non-Muslims, question the most senior cleric in the whole country? If Fadlallah says, 'that isn't suicide if you kill ten enemies,' how is a kid with a 14 - 16 year old's level of Quranic understanding supposed to question him?

I'll let that question soak for awhile and again, thank you for your insights.

Have a happy and peaceful Friday, R-3
My experience has been the opposite.

A friend of mine met a Palestinian who had a very critical view of Israeli occupied forces, and during the conversation, he asked the Palestinian that why would you guys blow yourself up in Israel? Islam does not allow suicide!

The Palestinian's face got red, and he replied in anger. He said,

"Do NOT talk to me about Islam, Quran, Hadeeth".
All I know is, My mother was killed by the Israel Army, my father was killed by the Israeli Army, My brother was killed by the Israeli Army, My wife and my kids were killed by the Israeli Army, my home was erased by the Israeli Army.

All I know now is to take revenge, even if I have to lose my life over it".



"This is what usually goes into the head of a suicide bomber".

You don't wake up in the morning and feel that you have become a suicide bomber. It takes sever atrocities against your loved ones that break the barrier of Islamic prohibition of suicide bomber.

You can't teach anyone to blow himself up and he will become a martyr. If you don't trust me, try it and show it to me that you can talk someone into killing himself to become a martyr.

Then you talked about Madrasas, I have been to a few. NEVER seen anyone teaching anyone to take fanatical steps against anyone else.

I have been to a lot of mosques all over the world... NEVER EVER heard a single sermon where an Imam is preaching to become suicide bombers.

Do any such "madrasas" exist that you talked about, I don't know. I have not seen one, and even if they do, even a blind man knows what they preach is against Islam.

The bigger question you should ask is WHO are the preachers in such Madrasas and where are they getting their support from?


If you are familiar with the Northern Area of Pakistan and Afghanistan, you may have noticed that some of the locals in those areas are blondes (blue eyes, blonde hair) - A few years ago, Pakistani forces arrested an Englishman (A British agent, born, raised and trained in UK) who was the imam of a local masjid/madrassa for 13 years.


Read Qudrut ullah Shahab's book called "Shahab Nama" where he exposed a training camp in UK where fake imams are trained in twisting the quranic versus and hadeeth, and they are then sent to Islamic countries to astray Muslims and create unrest.



Look at these giants, the so called ISIS Islamic terrorists hidden in black clads, and ask yourself, how many such tall monsters have you seen in the Mediterranean/Arab general public? Where do these come from? And not one, an entire army of them! Have you EVER seen such tall men in the Arab/Afghan/Iran Population?

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