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Old 08-23-2015, 07:27 AM
 
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I am trying to understand some various aspects of 'martyrdom' and would be interested how you personally think martyrdom works. If you are a Muslim, how would you (politely) explain these aspects of martyrdom to a non-Muslim?

I have discovered that there seems to be some differences - and some similarities - in the way Shia think of Martyrdom and the way Sunnis think of it. From your perspective, what similarities and what differences exist?

I have found many, many humans on earth who promise martyrdom to others if they go perform an act against other humans, but which would result in their death. I have found other references that suggest only Allah will determine who is a martyr. From your perspective, who can or cannot grant someone the title of martyr?

There is also the issue of martyrs going directly to Paradise upon their deaths and everyone else having to await the Day of Resurrection. True or false, and if true, why is that?

Finally, if there is anything else about martyrdom that you, as a Muslim, think would be important to explain to someone who didn't have more than passing understanding of the concept, please feel free to include your thoughts.

Thanks to all in advance, R-3.
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Old 08-23-2015, 08:28 AM
 
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First of all suicide is a big sin in Islam.
Killing an innocent life is also a big sin.

So you can't be a marthyr if you commit those acts.

Generally a marthyr is someone who fights against injustice : if his land, relatives, people where attacked (or even helping other people who where injustly attacked).
If he refused to give up his religion.
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Old 08-23-2015, 09:19 AM
 
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"Generally a marthyr is someone who fights against injustice : if his land, relatives, people where attacked (or even helping other people who where injustly attacked)."

So, would these people be martyrs for fighting against Muhammed:

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: If you come to a township (which has surrendered without a formal war) and stay therein, you have a share (that will be in the form of an award) in (the properties obtained from) it. If a township disobeys Allah and His Messenger (and actually fights against the Muslims) one-fifth of the booty seized therefrom is for Allah and His Apostle and the rest is for you. (Sahih Muslim 4346)

Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried, “Muhammad with his force,” and turned tail and fled… The apostle seized the property piece by piece… (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)
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Old 08-23-2015, 09:54 AM
 
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The hadiths need to be carefully studied, and i don't take them all as authentic.

Anyway, for having the statut of marthyr you need to believe in God.
In the Islamic perspective, someone who fights against a messanger of God can't be a marthyr.

By the way i made a quick research about the Banu el Harith, you quoted "Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them." (Ibn Ishaq)

And i found :

"A letter was written to the clan urging them to convert to Islam. However, if they wished to abide by their Jewish faith they would be required to pay jizya.
They were included in Point 31 of the Constitution of Medina and honored as allies to the Muslims, being as "one nation", but retaining their Jewish religion. They were given the same rights as Banu Awf and entered in to mutual protection pacts with the Muslim tribes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Harith

So, i don't know what it has to do with the marthyr's statut, they were just allies.

As for the other hadith concerning Khaybar, if you want to talk about the tribes of Khaybar who betrayed the muslims of course, they are not marthyrs.
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:14 PM
 
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Thank you both so far; Fazira I think had the gist of of what I'm trying to get at a bit better. Can we expand on the direction Fazira was taking us?

People who believe in God, and who fight against injustice and who refuse to give up their religion can be martyrs. Okay, got it.

Now, who finally decides?
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Old 08-23-2015, 01:25 PM
 
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"People who believe in God,"

I think the next question is...does that mean ANY god? If people believe in a god besides 'allah' is martyrdom still possible?
Does the principle of 'martyrdom' apply to just people who submit to allah?
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Old 08-23-2015, 01:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"People who believe in God,"

I think the next question is...does that mean ANY god? If people believe in a god besides 'allah' is martyrdom still possible?
Does the principle of 'martyrdom' apply to just people who submit to allah?
There is only ONE God. There are different words for his name in the Jewish, Arabic and English language.

Anyone who expects ANYTHING from ANY other god (be a cow, monkey, a statue, human, sun, moon, stars, monters, etc) is free to do so.
We will wait, and we will find it out.

There is no compulsion on anyone to choose what faith and which god he/she wants to follow and whatever he wants to expect.

We made our decisions based on our intelligence, logic, research and free will. And in the end, we will be responsible for our choices based on free will.
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Old 08-23-2015, 01:55 PM
 
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You're welcome Rescue3

I think that people in general tend to claim that this or that one is a marthyr depending of the side of the group.
But in reality it's not always easy to say.

By the way, i've also heard that there's others ways to be considerated a marthyr in some hadiths :

-if killed because of the plague
-a women who died while pregnant or when giving birth
-the one who died drowning
-the one who died burned
-the one who died by stomach ache

juju33312, you asked this question in the Islam forum so of course, it's it's our God which is the God of Abraham.
And believing in a God besides Allah means you are a polytheist and it's the worst sin in Islam.
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Old 08-23-2015, 02:58 PM
 
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Thanks, GoCardinals, for the clarification. To keep this on track, let's all presume for the purpose of this thread that the one God is the God of Abraham - the same God worshiped by Muslims and people of the Book - albeit by different names - but not Hindus or Confucians or people who worship the sun or statues or things like that. This is the Islam board - let's work with that.

Fazira suggested that there are several different ways to achieve martyrdom according to some hadiths. Hmmm. Okay. Those were new to me. Thank you.

But the point Fazira made that I'd like to focus on is "I think that people in general tend to claim that this or that one is a marthyr depending of the side of the group. But in reality it's not always easy to say."

That is one of the things I'm trying to get to the bottom of. Say (and this really happened, but I've changed the names) Hamid is a very pious military officer in Pakistan. He was in a raid on a Taliban hideout in one of the Waziristans. Dawuud, who was a Talib, and Hamid both died during the ensuing gun battle. The Pakistani government issued a press release stating Hamid 'embraced martyrdom.' The Taliban issued a press release stating the 'the martyr Dawuud' died fighting an unjust government.

Okay - Can either the gov't of Pakistan or the Taliban here on earth really declare their military members to be a martyr? Who, according to Islamic belief, gets to make the final decision as to who is a martyr?
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Old 08-23-2015, 08:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
First of all suicide is a big sin in Islam.
Killing an innocent life is also a big sin.
So you can't be a marthyr if you commit those acts.
This is very basic to all humans and common sense anywhere. Thus it would be expected to be the same in Islam.


Quote:
Generally a martyr is someone who fights against injustice : if his land, relatives, people where attacked (or even helping other people who where injustly attacked).
If he refused to give up his religion.
1. From the 6236 verses of the Quran, there are verses that condone martyrdom by Muslims at the expense of non-Muslim and humanity.
The problem is those martyrdom verses are like the 'half-full and half-empty' state where both interpretations are right.
Because such verses exist in the Quran as inspired by Allah and there is no central authority to judge in this world, SOME Muslims act out the martyrdom by killing non-Muslims since they interpret that as God's command and no one can say they are wrong.

To save time I am not quoting and providing the relevant verses. Those very familiar with the Quran should be aware of their existence, albeit having different interpretations.

2. The Quran advocate killing offensively and defensively when Islam is threatened or wronged. Because there are no precise definition of what is meant by "threatened" or "wronged", that leave it wide opened to Muslims to interpret it very loosely and thus act violently and be evil towards non-Muslims.
Note even drawing a cartoon is that sensitive to being wronged/threatened that warrant some Muslims to kill others. Who is to decide they are wrong since there is no central authority and God is not around to judge in the current situations where evils and violence are being committed.

3. Another reason that contribute to malignant martyrdom by Muslims is the Quran [in many verses] condemn life in this World terribly and praise the hereafter as the ultimate rewards for an individual.

4. The other factor is there are incentives for martyrdom in the Quran. Basically the Quran lay down the superlative rewards in paradise for a Muslim. In addition it also exhort Muslims to compete with each other to be the best Muslims. Some [not all] Muslims interpret martyrdom as one of the best one can be as a Muslims as rewards are multi-folds from the average Muslims.

5. The reality is there are 1.5 billion Muslims around the world.
If the average rate of depressive people is 3%, then we have a pool of 45 million depressed Muslims around the world.

6. It is the combination of the existence of real factors as with 1-5 above that make Islam [partly] dangerous in spreading martyrdom and catalyzing the depress within the pool of 45 million depressed Muslims to commit evils and violence around the world.
The frightening thing is, it took 18++ to do a 911 and even lone wolf [without or with minimal support] can commit terrible hell on Earth. Note the recent Paris Train Incident, the Tunisian Beach, etc.

7. The pool of depressed Muslims would be a significant contributive factors but there are even very 'good' Muslims who turn evil for the 'Cause of Allah' and that is because many believe are a existential desperadoes and the Quran is too vague plus its evil are often amplified in the expositions [Hadiths], Sira, texts and Sermons from all sources.

The above are the various reasons, amongst many others, that trigger martyrdom by SOME Muslims acting on evil laden verses and ideologies.
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