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Old 08-24-2015, 12:13 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Qur'an was preserved through memorization of the Qur'an by the Hafiz, not by the Written Qur'an.
One counter to the above is during Muhammad's time many of those who memorized parts of the revelations were killed in the earlier wars.
By the time Umar was worried enough to begin some compilation it was already too late to get the Original full Quran that was supposed to be from Allah in heaven.

I don't think there are any 'Hafiz' [one who memorization the full Quran] during Muhammad time. No one person would have accessed to the FULL range of recitations.

Muhammad recited the revelations to different people over 23 years.

Logic:
1. Let say the Original Full Quran in Allah's hand was 100%
2. Muhammad recited to various people with different and partial %.
3. Some of those who were given the recitations and memorize it were killed in wars.
4. Therefore the Quran we have today cannot be the 100% Full Original Quran.
5. It is just physically and empirically impossible to have the 100% Full Original Quran!

The point of the above logic, there was no FULL Original Quran in the first place because God as real is an impossibility.

From the logic above, it is most likely the Quran we have today was compiled and developed [edited to make some sense] over time by humans.

Any counter views to the above?

Last edited by Continuum; 08-24-2015 at 12:36 AM..
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:37 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,746,778 times
Reputation: 1333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
One counter to the above is during Muhammad's time many of those who memorized parts of the revelations were killed in the earlier wars.
By the time Umar was worried enough to begin some compilation it was already too late to get the Original full Quran that was supposed to be from Allah in heaven.

I don't think there are any 'Hafiz' [one who memorization the full Quran] during Muhammad time. No one person would have accessed to the FULL range of recitations.

Muhammad recited the revelations to different people over 23 years.

Logic:
1. Let say the Original Full Quran in Allah hand was 100%
2. Muhammad recited to various people with different and partial %.
3. Some of those who were given the recitations and memorize it were killed in wars.
4. Therefore the Quran we have today cannot be the 100% Full Original Quran.
5. It is just physically and empirically impossible to have the 100% Full Original Quran!

The point of the above logic, there was no FULL Original Quran in the first place because God as real is an impossibility.

From the logic above, it is most likely the Quran we have today was compiled and developed [edited to make some sense] over time by humans.

Any counter views to the above?
Apart from the unbacked impossibilities statement, the current idea I've heard is that the Quran was only gathered and printed by the Caliphate, but that its many "parts" were gotten by the Politicians from the "authenticated" words of the Hafiz.

Only time-travel will let us know now.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
One counter to the above is during Muhammad's time many of those who memorized parts of the revelations were killed in the earlier wars.
By the time Umar was worried enough to begin some compilation it was already too late to get the Original full Quran that was supposed to be from Allah in heaven.

I don't think there are any 'Hafiz' [one who memorization the full Quran] during Muhammad time. No one person would have accessed to the FULL range of recitations.

Muhammad recited the revelations to different people over 23 years.

Logic:
1. Let say the Original Full Quran in Allah's hand was 100%
2. Muhammad recited to various people with different and partial %.
3. Some of those who were given the recitations and memorize it were killed in wars.
4. Therefore the Quran we have today cannot be the 100% Full Original Quran.
5. It is just physically and empirically impossible to have the 100% Full Original Quran!

The point of the above logic, there was no FULL Original Quran in the first place because God as real is an impossibility.

From the logic above, it is most likely the Quran we have today was compiled and developed [edited to make some sense] over time by humans.

Any counter views to the above?
There were many Hafiz during Muhammad(saws)'s lifetime. We do not know how many Scribes were among Muhammad(saws) followers. Most scribes of the era memorized and wrote notes only as memory tools. The Qur'an was revealed over a 23 year period. Ample time for many to have memorized it. The Muslim community was very small and close knit. The primary means of preservation was memorization. It is reasonable to assume that most of the Sahaba (Companions of Muhammad) would have memorized it.

It is true that in one of the last wars nearly all the Hafiz in Arabia were killed. but there already were Hafiz outside of Arabia notably in North Africa, India and China. By the time Uthman had his Qur'an written he had to depend upon the Hafiz to write it. At the time Written Arabic was still a memory tool and not a means of preservation. The Uthman Qur'an is unreadable unless a person is Hafiz as the "words" are each simply 3 letters that serve as a reminder of what the word is.

If the Hafiz had differed today there would be numerous versions of the Qur'an. Yet, every Hafiz recites the same Qur'an. It is true the Qur'an was revealed in 4 different dialects and each of those have been preserved. There are four accepted accents recited by Hafiz. Each containing the same words but with a variation of pronunciation. However, the words are identical no matter what dialect the Hafiz speaks. The Tajweed (Musical tone) of every recitation is identical. The mass death of Hafiz at the battle, did create an immediate reaction for the training of more Hafiz. Typically it takes 3 years for a person to become Hafiz with the proper pronunciation of each each word, But a person can often fully memorize one Juz in 2 Months or less.
the Qur'an has numerous repetitions making for easy memorization and a very small vocabulary with words from less than 2,000 roots. Also the rhyming nature limits what word can follow what word. when you see a single word in a surah there are probably only 2 or 3 words that can follow it and rhyme properly and only one that makes sense in the context of the ayyat.

There are a number of built in safe guards that make it very difficult to change even one word without it being immediately noticed.

Any attempts at editing or revising would have resulted in written Qur'ans that differ from the Hafiz. also any change in a word would not fit in with the overall tajweed of a Surah.

Keep in mind that until the 1800s or early 1900's most of the world's Muslims would never have seen a written Qur'an. they were very rare because of the difficulty in producing them as each had to be hand written.

There are several fragments of Qur'ans that predate Uthman and those are in agreement with what is written today. No reason to believe the entire text would have differed.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:01 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,593 times
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"Keep in mind that until the 1800s or early 1900's most of the world's Muslims would never have seen a written Qur'an. they were very rare because of the difficulty in producing them as each had to be hand written. "

If we accept the idea that the Quran is from the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, this is nonsense. Why didn't the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE simply create a millions of Qurans for everyone? He supposedly created every stinking thing that exists, and brags about his ability to do anything, but his ONLY book demanding we all submit to him or suffer eternal horrible torture at his hands is in surprisingly short supply!! "Very rare"!! Do you know how easy it would be for a CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE to have a Quran appear in the hands of every human? Or today just download it to our iphones. And allah couldn't even provide a book with several translations! Instead he's sent an untranslatable mess.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There were many Hafiz during Muhammad(saws)'s lifetime. We do not know how many Scribes were among Muhammad(saws) followers. Most scribes of the era memorized and wrote notes only as memory tools. The Qur'an was revealed over a 23 year period. Ample time for many to have memorized it. The Muslim community was very small and close knit. The primary means of preservation was memorization. It is reasonable to assume that most of the Sahaba (Companions of Muhammad) would have memorized it.
My main point is there is no Quran from God [impossible for a real god to exists]. I'll go along with justifying why if otherwise, the Quran at present cannot be 100% of the Original in Allah's hand.

Note this inference posted earlier:

Logic:
1. Let say the Original Full Quran in Allah's hand was 100%
2. Muhammad recited to various people with different and partial %.
3. Some of those who were given the recitations and memorize it were killed in wars.
4. Therefore the Quran we have today cannot be the 100% Full Original Quran.
5. It is just physically and empirically impossible to have the 100% Full Original Quran!

There are a lot of stories from the various Hadiths to support why many of those who received the recitations were killed in the earlier wars. Till we get to these stories we will discuss based on principles an logic.

The recitations were spoken over 23 years in various intervals to many people.
It was not the case of the 100% recitations given in year 1 and they have 23 years to be memorized.
The earlier chapters were short and easy to memorize but the chapter in the later years were much longer and have a shorter span of time to be memorized in the midst of war.
Note under the condition of war, there is heavy mental stress all over and memory abilities would have been compromised. Psychologically I am sure you understand that.

In principle, even if 1 chapter is lost, then we do not have the 100% original.
There is a great likelihood many of the chapters were lost within the minds of those who were killed in the earlier wars.
As you said the community was small thus the risk is greater when those who received the revelation were killed.
From a realistic and practical standpoint it is most possible we cannot have the 100% original Quran from God.

I have not discussed in details but the other factors that prevent a 100% full original Quran from God are;

1. Limitation of transmission by Memory.
Transmission by memory is vulnerable to corruption no matter how much care is taken. There are so many variables in the case of the transmission of the Quran, i.e. especially with wars going on during the later stages of the 23 years Muhammad life.

2. Limitation of written texts and translation.
Apparently there is the controversial of some lost texts re the chapter containing 'stoning.'


The above case against a 100% Full Original Quran from Allah is very plausible given the limitations within an imperfect empirical conditions and fallible human nature.

Regardless of the above, it is impossible to have a Quran from God because God does not exists in the first place.
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Old 08-27-2015, 05:24 AM
 
116 posts, read 67,530 times
Reputation: 28

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