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Old 08-26-2015, 09:55 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 755,592 times
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"while there are many such reports, if one does a full check they will be found to have all originated back to Hadiths attributed to Aisha."

ROFL! I see other sources besides Aisha. Read back through what I posted. One example is "Yunus b. Bukayr stated, from Hisham b. ‘Urwa, from his father who said"

And Muslims talk about Aisha being so brilliant with such a good memory, yet she forgets her age so many times although she remembers playing with her friends and her dolls and swinging on a swing with playmates? Or do you think she was insane and thought she was 9 years old when she was 18 and at 18 was still playing like a child? So did Muhammed then have sex with an insane woman? Or did he marry a psychotic liar? Is there a limit to what Muslims will come up with to deny the truth? Why would Aisha lie relentlessly about this?

"According to a hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE."

Seriously?? It was the FIGHTERS that had to be 15 or older. Aisha went as Muhammed's bed partner, not to fight! This is a very common and dishonest apologetic argument. At least you are ashamed that Muhammed had sex with a child and want to pretend it did not happen.

"The only thing we can be certain of is we have no verification of Aisha's age."

Actually, I gave it to you.

"but some things can be determined. Aisha was happy, She was physically mature, She was a very articulate and proficient narrator and one of the largest sources of the Ahadith. Next to Muhammad(saws) she is probably the most influential person in the sdevelopment of Islam as we now know it."

Except that she was still playing with her dolls and swinging between branches with her playmates and telling huge lies about her age when Muhammed started having sex with her!

What do you think about Muhammed hitting her?
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Old 08-26-2015, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Muhammed let his men to gang rape captive women!!! And allah encouraged this!!

Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period." [The Quran verse is 4:24]
Abu Dawud 2:2150
(NOTE: This is not from Ishaq's book!!!)|

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually after the requirement (has been determined), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.
Qur'an 4:24
(NOTE: This is not from Ishaq's book!!!)
(NOTE: The right hand possesses slaves and captive women!! Those are your property to rape/have sex with!!!)

Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about coitus interruptus and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:459
(NOTE: This is not from Ishaq's book!!!)

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's Messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Quran 4:. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end).
Sahih Muslim 8:3432
(NOTE: This is not from Ishaq's book!!!)
At the moment I am pressed for time and will only reply briefly.

Most of those Ahadith are related to the same incident

%:59 is not even speaking about Muhammad except to mention he was asked if coitus interrutus was permitted and he replied it is best not to. Nothing about permission to rape captive women.

The others relate to it being permissable to marry slave girls.

No permission is being given to rape anyone.

I will try to give a fuller reply when I get back home from Fargo, which will be late tonight.
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Old 08-26-2015, 01:21 PM
 
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"Most of those Ahadith are related to the same incident"

So what? It proves Muhammed allowed his men to rape captive women. And I see at least 2 instances.

"%:59 is not even speaking about Muhammad except to mention he was asked if coitus interrutus was permitted and he replied it is best not to. Nothing about permission to rape captive women."

Look, if a gang of men are mass raping women they have captured and they ask the leader if they should refrain from ejaculating into these women so they can sell them for better prices and the leader says go ahead and ejaculate into them...THAT IS PERMISSION.

Muhammed made no mention of stopping the rape....just to ejaculate into the women while raping them.

Do you think that Muhammed and his men ride into a village, kill or capture the men and the women beg Muhammed and his men to have sex with them? I'm just not feeling it. I think if a woman sees a man kill her husband, sons and father she really isn't in the mood to have sex with the men that slaughtered them. We'll let the reader decide!

"The others relate to it being permissable to marry slave girls. "

Right, permissible. Or Muslims can choose NOT to marry their female slaves and instead sell or trade them or just keep them as slaves and keep having sex with them. Allah gives them permission to have sex with slaves/captives since their 'right hand possesses' these people...the are the slaves of the Muslims.

Quran 4:24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you to have sex with) save those (captives/slaves) whom your right hands possess. ...

Quran 4:25 And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls.


This is interesting because we find that Muslims own Muslim women as slaves! And that allah doesn't care!

No permission is being given to rape anyone.

It's right in the Quran!

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)


Not only does allah say to go ahead and rape the captive women, but do it in front of their husbands!!
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Old 08-26-2015, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,320,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Most of those Ahadith are related to the same incident"

So what? It proves Muhammed allowed his men to rape captive women. And I see at least 2 instances.

"%:59 is not even speaking about Muhammad except to mention he was asked if coitus interrutus was permitted and he replied it is best not to. Nothing about permission to rape captive women."

Look, if a gang of men are mass raping women they have captured and they ask the leader if they should refrain from ejaculating into these women so they can sell them for better prices and the leader says go ahead and ejaculate into them...THAT IS PERMISSION.

Muhammed made no mention of stopping the rape....just to ejaculate into the women while raping them.

Do you think that Muhammed and his men ride into a village, kill or capture the men and the women beg Muhammed and his men to have sex with them? I'm just not feeling it. I think if a woman sees a man kill her husband, sons and father she really isn't in the mood to have sex with the men that slaughtered them. We'll let the reader decide!

"The others relate to it being permissable to marry slave girls. "

Right, permissible. Or Muslims can choose NOT to marry their female slaves and instead sell or trade them or just keep them as slaves and keep having sex with them. Allah gives them permission to have sex with slaves/captives since their 'right hand possesses' these people...the are the slaves of the Muslims.

Quran 4:24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you to have sex with) save those (captives/slaves) whom your right hands possess. ...

Quran 4:25 And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls.


This is interesting because we find that Muslims own Muslim women as slaves! And that allah doesn't care!

No permission is being given to rape anyone.

It's right in the Quran!

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)


Not only does allah say to go ahead and rape the captive women, but do it in front of their husbands!!
Quote:
Muhammed made no mention of stopping the rape....just to ejaculate into the women while raping them.
That we do not know. The ahadith relates part of a conversation between Ibn Muhairiz and Abu Said Al-Khudri As the conversation was apparently about coitu-interrutus, that is all Ibn Muhairiz wrote down. Hew was not present at the time. The discussion between the 2 men was not about the battle, as Ibn Muhairis did not write anything about the battle. From that Hadith the only thing we know is that Ibn Muhairiz said Abu Syed (For clarity I changed the spelling of his name to a more common spelling) Al-Khudri told him that Muhammad(saws) discourged coitus interruptus.

Apparently Ibn Muhairis had little of no direct contact with Muhammad(saws) and was asking Abu Said Al-Khudri if he ever heard Muhammad(saws) say something about it.

Quote:
Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about coitus interruptus and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:459
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Old 08-27-2015, 09:10 AM
 
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"The ahadith relates part of a conversation between Ibn Muhairiz and Abu Said Al-Khudri As the conversation was apparently about coitu-interrutus, that is all Ibn Muhairiz wrote down."

I understand that you are ashamed of the actions of Muhammed, and that is good. You will make up anything to cover for Muhammed, and that is bad. People need to be able to face and speak out against such evil. If only Muslims would say Muhammed was wrong to rape and have sex with a child and own and trade slaves and sell women and have people slaughtered for making fun of him and all the rest, then just maybe Islam could be reformed. But al long as you refuse to face the truth and apply justice, the rapes and terrorism and backwardness and slavery and human rights abuses will continue. When you refuse to stand against evil, evil always wins.

Muhammed and his men would attack villages, slaughter or capture the men and mass rape the women. There are several accounts of this in different hadiths and even in the Quran where allah gives permission to rape captive women in front of their husbands.

It all integrates very well. The Quran teaches hate and everlasting terrible torture for disbelievers hundreds of times. There is incitement to terrorism and slaughter. The hadiths show examples of Muhammed carrying out what is in the Quran.

For proof:
The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

At 53 years old, Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old child, a 4th grader. He owned and traded slaves. He gave out women like party favors after attacking villages and taking the women captive and even slaughtering their fathers, sons and husbands. He sold women. He slaughtered people for making fun of him. He told his men to ejaculate into captive women while mass raping them. All this and more is documented in the Islamic hadiths. I am only repeating what Islam says. I give proof for all this by posting the verses and how to find them.

No Muslim can say that Muhammed was evil to do these things.
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Old 08-27-2015, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,320,105 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"The ahadith relates part of a conversation between Ibn Muhairiz and Abu Said Al-Khudri As the conversation was apparently about coitu-interrutus, that is all Ibn Muhairiz wrote down."

I understand that you are ashamed of the actions of Muhammed, and that is good. You will make up anything to cover for Muhammed, and that is bad. People need to be able to face and speak out against such evil. If only Muslims would say Muhammed was wrong to rape and have sex with a child and own and trade slaves and sell women and have people slaughtered for making fun of him and all the rest, then just maybe Islam could be reformed. But al long as you refuse to face the truth and apply justice, the rapes and terrorism and backwardness and slavery and human rights abuses will continue. When you refuse to stand against evil, evil always wins.

Muhammed and his men would attack villages, slaughter or capture the men and mass rape the women. There are several accounts of this in different hadiths and even in the Quran where allah gives permission to rape captive women in front of their husbands.

It all integrates very well. The Quran teaches hate and everlasting terrible torture for disbelievers hundreds of times. There is incitement to terrorism and slaughter. The hadiths show examples of Muhammed carrying out what is in the Quran.

For proof:
The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

At 53 years old, Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old child, a 4th grader. He owned and traded slaves. He gave out women like party favors after attacking villages and taking the women captive and even slaughtering their fathers, sons and husbands. He sold women. He slaughtered people for making fun of him. He told his men to ejaculate into captive women while mass raping them. All this and more is documented in the Islamic hadiths. I am only repeating what Islam says. I give proof for all this by posting the verses and how to find them.

No Muslim can say that Muhammed was evil to do these things.
I do not personally know a single Muslim that interprets anything in the Qur'an to indicate Muhammad(saws) did or commanded those things:

Quote:
At 53 years old, Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old child, a 4th grader. He owned and traded slaves. He gave out women like party favors after attacking villages and taking the women captive and even slaughtering their fathers, sons and husbands. He sold women. He slaughtered people for making fun of him. He told his men to ejaculate into captive women while mass raping them. All this and more is documented in the Islamic hadiths. I am only repeating what Islam says. I give proof for all this by posting the verses and how to find them.
as for:

Quote:
No Muslim can say that Muhammed was evil to do these things
You are correct we can not say Muhammad(saws) was evel for doing those things. Because he never did them.

The allegations he did so are not supported by the Ahadith, Sira, Sunnah, Madhabs or the Qur'an.
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:10 AM
 
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"I do not personally know a single Muslim that interprets anything in the Qur'an to indicate Muhammad(saws) did or commanded those things:"

I do. For example, the ones that say that Aisha matured early because she lived in a hot climate so 9 years old was womanhood. Other excuses are that people lived shorter lifespans back then, or that other cultures allowed men to have sex with little girls so it is OK for Muhammed to do it. And there are other excuses Muslims give for Muhammed having sex with a 9 year old child when he was 53 years old. In fact, the majority of the thousands of Muslims I have spoken to think that Muhammed did have sex with a 9 year old child. They just find ways to excuse it.

Muhammed did all these things according to Islamic writings. I read it all with my own eyes. I have heard many excuses given over and over but the fact remains that Islam says that Muhammed did these things and it all integrates between the Quran and hadiths and the hadiths support other hadiths. You choose to ignore evidence. I can't think or be honest for you. You must choose to do that. I can only provide a mountain of evidence.
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,320,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"I do not personally know a single Muslim that interprets anything in the Qur'an to indicate Muhammad(saws) did or commanded those things:"

I do. For example, the ones that say that Aisha matured early because she lived in a hot climate so 9 years old was womanhood. Other excuses are that people lived shorter lifespans back then, or that other cultures allowed men to have sex with little girls so it is OK for Muhammed to do it. And there are other excuses Muslims give for Muhammed having sex with a 9 year old child when he was 53 years old. In fact, the majority of the thousands of Muslims I have spoken to think that Muhammed did have sex with a 9 year old child. They just find ways to excuse it.

Muhammed did all these things according to Islamic writings. I read it all with my own eyes. I have heard many excuses given over and over but the fact remains that Islam says that Muhammed did these things and it all integrates between the Quran and hadiths and the hadiths support other hadiths. You choose to ignore evidence. I can't think or be honest for you. You must choose to do that. I can only provide a mountain of evidence.
At the moment I will just address this:

Quote:
and it all integrates between the Quran and hadiths and the hadiths support other hadiths.
Because a Hadith appears in many places does not mean it had more than one witness.

In the 7 Sunni Books of Ahadith each hadith is copied several times and classified under the category it may apply to.

Bukhari's compilation consists of 93 categories in 9 volumes very many of them are repetitions of the same hadith as a hadith may apply to multiple categories. While the collection of Ahadith (Plural of Hadith) in Bukhari is 7,276 there are less than 4,000 hadith in them. some especially those narrated by Aisha repeated in multiple categories.

As for the other collections Dawud is almost an exact duplicate of Bukhari but classified differently. The source of Ahadith for Dawud was almost 100% from His teacher Bukhari, although Dawud left out all Ahadith attributed to Aisha and included others. The other 5 compilations are partial copies of Bukhari and Dawud with the addition of some that do not have a fully validated source. There are several thousand other compilations but they are all unverified and there is no indication the alleged witnesses existed, or the chain of preservation contains blanks and can not be verified.

When reading Ahadith one needs to be cautious and understand that that because there are multiple narrators, it does not mean the event occurred many times. It is like reading the same newspaper story in many different papers. Because an AP or UP news story is repeated in thousands of different newspapers it does not become more true.

Using Aisha as an example, She may have related something she witnessed to 2 people, each of them relate it to 2 others and so on. In a short time you can have hundreds of people relating the same story, but that does not increase it's credibility as most of them will not have gotten it directly from Aisha.
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Old 08-27-2015, 11:13 AM
 
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"Using Aisha as an example, She may have related something she witnessed to 2 people, each of them relate it to 2 others and so on. In a short time you can have hundreds of people relating the same story, but that does not increase it's credibility as most of them will not have gotten it directly from Aisha"

You have also implied (strongly) that Aisha can not be trusted. If I consider all your excuses, none of the hadiths are reliable, all should be tossed out and the Quran should probably also go as it passed from allah to an 'angel' to Muhammed. It's certainly not the direct word from god. I've even heard that Muhammed was illiterate and other people wrote the quran, adding another layer of unreliability!

As Carl Sagan would say:

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

And I say: You can't eat your cake and have it, too.
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Old 08-27-2015, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,320,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Using Aisha as an example, She may have related something she witnessed to 2 people, each of them relate it to 2 others and so on. In a short time you can have hundreds of people relating the same story, but that does not increase it's credibility as most of them will not have gotten it directly from Aisha"

You have also implied (strongly) that Aisha can not be trusted. If I consider all your excuses, none of the hadiths are reliable, all should be tossed out and the Quran should probably also go as it passed from allah to an 'angel' to Muhammed. It's certainly not the direct word from god. I've even heard that Muhammed was illiterate and other people wrote the quran, adding another layer of unreliability!

As Carl Sagan would say:

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

And I say: You can't eat your cake and have it, too.
Although I am not a Hadith rejector, I find ahadith are often misunderstood, misused or a combination. It takes considerable study to just come to an understanding of the imprtance of verification of Isnad (Chain of Narrators) in a Hadith along with knowledge that Ahadith collections generally consist of single lines of what the Witness saw.

One needs to know the metodology of each comilere along with searching for the non-truncated original narration. It can take years just tracking down a full hadith and even longer in determining the meaning.

I find it far better for non-hadith scholars to rely upon the findings in the Madhabs until they them self have verified a Hadith.

Ihave been studying Ahadith for 5 or so years now. Some with the assistence of an Islamic Lawyer I know from Malaysia and most from recommended websites, although with the attitude the websites may not always be as they seem.

So far what I am finding is Aisha is highly misunderstood. We do not know for certain what she said is metaphorical or fact in relation to her age.

We do know she accomplished a lot and was considered the most valued source of Islam second only to Muhammad(saws) and was accepted as being the "Mother of all Muslims" during the lifetime of Muhammad(saws) I find it difficult to believe she could have been only 18 at the Time of Muhammad(saws) death when looking at the role she played in the spread of Islam in Arabia. During a time that Arabs were just learning about Islam and many still believed women were inferior. I find it hard to believe they would have accepted a Female "Child" as their Religious mentor.
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