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Old 08-27-2015, 10:44 PM
 
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"So far what I am finding is Aisha is highly misunderstood. We do not know for certain what she said is metaphorical or fact in relation to her age."

Are you joking?! Sure we do. Read what I posted above. Muhammed started having sex with Aisha when she was 9 years old and he was 53 years old.

Any rationalizations fall flat when you read through the verses I posted.

I could do research and correct your claims and thinking with evidence, but every time I do that I waste my time because you just come up with the next rationalization and ignore what I say. It's like nailing jello to a wall.

I think that it is dreadful for a 53 year old man to have repeated sex and fondling with a 9 year old child. That it was Muhammed setting an example for Islam makes it far worse.
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Old 08-28-2015, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"So far what I am finding is Aisha is highly misunderstood. We do not know for certain what she said is metaphorical or fact in relation to her age."

Are you joking?! Sure we do. Read what I posted above. Muhammed started having sex with Aisha when she was 9 years old and he was 53 years old.

Any rationalizations fall flat when you read through the verses I posted.

I could do research and correct your claims and thinking with evidence, but every time I do that I waste my time because you just come up with the next rationalization and ignore what I say. It's like nailing jello to a wall.

I think that it is dreadful for a 53 year old man to have repeated sex and fondling with a 9 year old child. That it was Muhammed setting an example for Islam makes it far worse.
Yes, the way you view it, it is horrible.

However, I see that as a misconception of Aisha and Muhammad(saws) all based upon Ahadith some of which may be metaphors, misunderstood or in a few cases fabrications written hundreds of years after Muhammad(saws) death.

The Ahadith are not a reliable source, unless a person has had considerable training in Ahadith interpretation. some are actual facts, others are metaphors and still others are the Narrators opinion.

an example I learned while iving in Morocco. An Arab friend of mine introduced me to his Mother and told me she was 5 years old. Later a young friend of mine died and a mutual friend and I were talking about the deceased friend and told me our deceased friend was a 1,000 years old.

I eventually learned ascribing a very young age to a woman is not reference to her chronological age, it is a description of her purity.Ascribing a very old age to a man is a tribute to his wisdom.

I really doubt if we know for certain if the descriptions of Aisha are metaphors of if she was a true Miracle. A Physically and Mature adult woman, who was of very few chronological years in age.

All indications in the Ahadith present her as being physically and mentally mature and accepted as an adult.
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Old 08-28-2015, 10:08 AM
 
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"All indications in the Ahadith present her as being physically and mentally mature and accepted as an adult."

They certainly do not!!!

'A'isha reported that she used to PLAY WITH DOLLS in the presence of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent them to her. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5981)

Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, NOT YET REACHED THE AGE OF PUBERTY.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151)

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet was screening me with his Rida' (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl (who has not reached the age of puberty) who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 163)

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house AS A BRIDE WHEN SHE WAS NINE, AND HER DOLLS WERE WITH HER; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:

When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4914)

Narrated Urwa bin Al-Musayyab, Alqama bin Waqqas and Ubaidullah bin Abdullah:
About the story of 'Aisha and their narrations were similar attesting each other, when the liars said what they invented about 'Aisha, and the Divine Inspiration was delayed, Allah's Apostle sent for 'Ali and Usama to consult them in divorcing his wife (i.e. 'Aisha). Usama said, "Keep your wife, as we know nothing about her except good." Buraira said, "I cannot accuse her of any defect except that she is still A YOUNG GIRL who sleeps, neglecting her family's dough which the domestic goats come to eat (i.e. she was too simpleminded to deceive her husband)." Allah's Apostle said, "Who can help me to take revenge over the man who has harmed me by defaming the reputation of my family? By Allah, I have not known about my family anything except good, and they mentioned (i.e. accused) a man about whom I did not know anything except good." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 805)

… Buraira said, 'No, by Allah Who has sent you with the Truth, I have never seen in her anything faulty except that she is a girl of IMMATURE AGE, who sometimes sleeps and leaves the dough for the goats to eat.' … (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 829)

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3309; see also 3310)

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4915)

SUNAN IBN-I-MAJAH

1876. ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) is reported to have said: Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) contracted marriage with me while I was (yet) a six years [sic] old girl. Then we arrived at Medina and stayed with Banu Harith b. Khazraj. I fell victim to fever; then my hair (of the head fell off (and became scattered). Then they became plenty and hanged down upto [sic] the earlobes. My mother ‘Umm Ruman came to me while I was (playing) in a swing along with [sic] my play-mates.

‘A’ishah states: We came to Medina and Abu Bakr took up quarters in al-Sunh among the Banu al-Harith b. al-Khazraj. The Messenger of God came to our house and men and women of the Ansar gathered around him. My mother came to me WHILE I WAS BEING SWUNG ON A SWING BETWEEN TWO BRANCHES AND GOT ME DOWN. Jumaymah, my nurse, took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me.

, when I was six years old. After we arrived in Medina some women came to me while I was playing on a swing; my hair was like that of a boy. They dressed me up and put make-up on me, then took me to the Messenger of God (SAAS), and he consummated our marriage. I was a girl of nine.’"

The Prophet and his daughters now went to live with Sawda in her new house; and after a month or two it was decided that ‘A’ishah’s wedding should take place. She was then only nine years old, a child of remarkable beauty, as might have been expected from her parentage…
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Old 08-28-2015, 10:27 AM
 
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"The Ahadith are not a reliable source, unless a person has had considerable training in Ahadith interpretation. some are actual facts, others are metaphors and still others are the Narrators opinion."

This is a favorite excuse of Muslims who are ashamed that Muhammed had sex with a 4th grader when he was 53 years old!!

The fact is, MANY hadith report that Aisha was a little girl of 9 years old when Muhammed started having sex with her! I have posted them.

What you do casts aspersions on Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan Nasa'i, SUNAN IBN-I-MAJAH, Ibn Ishaq, AL-TABARI, IBN KATHIR, IBN QAYYIM.....

There are more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in that reported it directly from `A'isha, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha. (Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her Marriage to The Prophet, Answered by Shaykh Gibril F Haddad)

It is like standing in the pouring rain arguing with you about if it is raining. I am simply reporting what Islam says. Over and over.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron." He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins AND FOR FONDLING THEM?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that YOU MIGHT PLAY WITH HER and she with you?" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17)
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Old 08-28-2015, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"The Ahadith are not a reliable source, unless a person has had considerable training in Ahadith interpretation. some are actual facts, others are metaphors and still others are the Narrators opinion."

This is a favorite excuse of Muslims who are ashamed that Muhammed had sex with a 4th grader when he was 53 years old!!

The fact is, MANY hadith report that Aisha was a little girl of 9 years old when Muhammed started having sex with her! I have posted them.

What you do casts aspersions on Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan Nasa'i, SUNAN IBN-I-MAJAH, Ibn Ishaq, AL-TABARI, IBN KATHIR, IBN QAYYIM.....

There are more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in that reported it directly from `A'isha, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha. (Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her Marriage to The Prophet, Answered by Shaykh Gibril F Haddad)

It is like standing in the pouring rain arguing with you about if it is raining. I am simply reporting what Islam says. Over and over.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron." He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins AND FOR FONDLING THEM?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that YOU MIGHT PLAY WITH HER and she with you?" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17)
Just asking a few questions regarding this.

Quote:
What you do casts aspersions on Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan Nasa'i, SUNAN IBN-I-MAJAH, Ibn Ishaq, AL-TABARI, IBN KATHIR, IBN QAYYIM.....
I am not casting aspersions, just want to know their sources:

Muhammad died in 632 AD

Bukhari was born in 810 AD

Imam Muslim was born in 817 AD

Abu Dawud was born in 889 AD

Nasa'i was born in 829 AD

Ibn Majah was born in 824 AD

Ibn Ishaq was born in 704 AD

Al-Tabari was born in 839 AD

Ibn Kathir was born in 1300 AD

Ibn Qayyim was born in 1232 AD

It is certain non-of them ever met Muhammad(saws) nor any people that were living during Muhammad(saws) lifetime.

The Question is what/who was the source of their compilations or writings?

To make it easy Bukhari did have a good listing of who each testimony passed through before getting to him. From Muslim through Ibn Majah their compilations were mostly direct copies from Bukhari with the addition of some Ahadith Bukhari was not able to verify the validity of.

Ishaq is questionable, not exactly him but if much of the work arttributed to him was actually done by him. While he did write "Sirat Rasoul Allah" there is doubt that what exists was actually his work. There is no knwn source for any of the material contained in it.

The remainder wrote Commentaries of past work and/or commentaries of the Qur'an. But they are opinions and need to be considered as Such.

the problem is we have no independently verifiable history of Aisha. Al things written about or by her have to be taken with faith and not verification.
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Old 08-28-2015, 07:59 PM
 
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Sahih Al-Bukhari: These prophetic traditions, or hadith, were collected by the Iranian Muslim scholar Muhammad al-Bukhari, after being transmitted orally for generations. Sunni Muslims view this as one of the three most trusted collections of hadith along with Sahih Muslim and Muwatta Imam Malik.[1] It is also used as an authentic hadith collection by Zaidi Shia Muslims.[2] In some circles, it is considered the most authentic book after the Quran.[3][4] The Arabic word sahih translates as authentic or correct.[5].....

Sahih Muslim: Sahih Muslim (Arabic: صحيح مسلم, ṣaḥīḥ Muslim; full title: Al-Musnadu Al-Sahihu bi Naklil Adli) is one of the Kutub al-Sittah (six major ahadith) of the hadith in Sunni Islam. It is the second most authentic hadith collection after Sahih al-Bukhari, and is highly acclaimed by Sunni Muslims as well as Zaidi Shia Muslims. It was collected by Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj, also known as Imam Muslim. Sahih translates as authentic or correct.[1]

Sunan Abu Dawud: Abu Dawud collected 500,000 hadith, but included only 4,800 in this collection. Sunnis regard this collection as fourth in strength of their six major hadith collections. It took Abu Dawud 20 years to collect the hadiths. He made a series of journeys to meet most of the foremost traditionists of his time and acquired from them the most reliable hadiths, quoting sources through which it reached him. Since the author collected hadiths which no one had ever assembled together, his sunan has been accepted as a standard work by scholars from many parts of the Islamic world,[1] especially after Ibn al-Qaisarani's inclusion of it in the formal canonization of the six major collections.[2][3][4]

Sunan Nasa'i: Sunnis regard this collection as third in strength of their Six major Hadith collections.[1] Al-Mujtaba (English: the selected) has about 5270 hadith, including repeated narrations, which the author selected from his larger work,

Ibn Ishaq: In hadith studies, ibn Isḥaq's hadith (considered separately from his prophetic biography) is generally thought to be "good" (ḥasan) (assuming an accurate and trustworthy isnad, or chain of transmission)[28] and himself having a reputation of being "sincere" or "trustworthy" (ṣadūq).

AL-TABARI:A persual of Tabari shows that in fact he relied on a variety of historians and other authors such as Abu Mihnaf, Sayf b. 'Umar, Ibn al-Kalbi, 'Awana b. al-Hakam, Nasr b. Muzahim, al-Mada'ini, 'Urwa b. al-Zubayr, al-Zuhri, Ibn Ishaq, Waqidi, Wahb b. Munabbih, Ka'b al-Ahbar, Ibn al-Matni, al Haggag b. al-Minhal, Hisham b. 'Urwa, al-Zubayr b. Bakkar and so forth, in addition to oral accounts that were circulating at the time. In recounting his history, Tabari used numerous channels to give accounts. These are both channels that are given by the same author in a work, such as for example three different accounts that start with the isnad al-Harita.[44]

IBN KATHIR: was a highly influential Sunni scholar of the Shafi'i school during the Mamluk rule of Syria, an expert on tafsir (Quranic exegesis) and faqīh (jurisprudence) as well as a historian. Ibn Kathir wrote a famous commentary on the Qur'an named Tafsir al-Qur'an al-'Adhim which linked certain Hadith, or sayings of Muhammad, and sayings of the sahaba to verses of the Qur'an, in explanation. It is considered to be a summary of the earlier tafsir by al-Tabari, Tafsir al-Tabari. It is especially popular because it uses the hadith to explain each verse and chapter of the Qur'an.

From Wikipedia.

According to Islam, Muhammed had sex with a little 4th grader when he was 53 years old. Muhammed also allowed his men to mass rape captive women after slaughtering their husbands, fathers and sons, and even participated in rape. Muhammed owned and traded slaves and passed out captive women. He also sold women. He had people slaughtered if they made fun of him. His little child bride had to clean up gobs of sperm from his clothes.
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Old 08-29-2015, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Sahih Al-Bukhari: These prophetic traditions, or hadith, were collected by the Iranian Muslim scholar Muhammad al-Bukhari, after being transmitted orally for generations. Sunni Muslims view this as one of the three most trusted collections of hadith along with Sahih Muslim and Muwatta Imam Malik.[1] It is also used as an authentic hadith collection by Zaidi Shia Muslims.[2] In some circles, it is considered the most authentic book after the Quran.[3][4] The Arabic word sahih translates as authentic or correct.[5].....

Sahih Muslim: Sahih Muslim (Arabic: صحيح مسلم, ṣaḥīḥ Muslim; full title: Al-Musnadu Al-Sahihu bi Naklil Adli) is one of the Kutub al-Sittah (six major ahadith) of the hadith in Sunni Islam. It is the second most authentic hadith collection after Sahih al-Bukhari, and is highly acclaimed by Sunni Muslims as well as Zaidi Shia Muslims. It was collected by Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj, also known as Imam Muslim. Sahih translates as authentic or correct.[1]

Sunan Abu Dawud: Abu Dawud collected 500,000 hadith, but included only 4,800 in this collection. Sunnis regard this collection as fourth in strength of their six major hadith collections. It took Abu Dawud 20 years to collect the hadiths. He made a series of journeys to meet most of the foremost traditionists of his time and acquired from them the most reliable hadiths, quoting sources through which it reached him. Since the author collected hadiths which no one had ever assembled together, his sunan has been accepted as a standard work by scholars from many parts of the Islamic world,[1] especially after Ibn al-Qaisarani's inclusion of it in the formal canonization of the six major collections.[2][3][4]

Sunan Nasa'i: Sunnis regard this collection as third in strength of their Six major Hadith collections.[1] Al-Mujtaba (English: the selected) has about 5270 hadith, including repeated narrations, which the author selected from his larger work,

Ibn Ishaq: In hadith studies, ibn Isḥaq's hadith (considered separately from his prophetic biography) is generally thought to be "good" (ḥasan) (assuming an accurate and trustworthy isnad, or chain of transmission)[28] and himself having a reputation of being "sincere" or "trustworthy" (ṣadūq).

AL-TABARI:A persual of Tabari shows that in fact he relied on a variety of historians and other authors such as Abu Mihnaf, Sayf b. 'Umar, Ibn al-Kalbi, 'Awana b. al-Hakam, Nasr b. Muzahim, al-Mada'ini, 'Urwa b. al-Zubayr, al-Zuhri, Ibn Ishaq, Waqidi, Wahb b. Munabbih, Ka'b al-Ahbar, Ibn al-Matni, al Haggag b. al-Minhal, Hisham b. 'Urwa, al-Zubayr b. Bakkar and so forth, in addition to oral accounts that were circulating at the time. In recounting his history, Tabari used numerous channels to give accounts. These are both channels that are given by the same author in a work, such as for example three different accounts that start with the isnad al-Harita.[44]

IBN KATHIR: was a highly influential Sunni scholar of the Shafi'i school during the Mamluk rule of Syria, an expert on tafsir (Quranic exegesis) and faqīh (jurisprudence) as well as a historian. Ibn Kathir wrote a famous commentary on the Qur'an named Tafsir al-Qur'an al-'Adhim which linked certain Hadith, or sayings of Muhammad, and sayings of the sahaba to verses of the Qur'an, in explanation. It is considered to be a summary of the earlier tafsir by al-Tabari, Tafsir al-Tabari. It is especially popular because it uses the hadith to explain each verse and chapter of the Qur'an.

From Wikipedia.

According to Islam, Muhammed had sex with a little 4th grader when he was 53 years old. Muhammed also allowed his men to mass rape captive women after slaughtering their husbands, fathers and sons, and even participated in rape. Muhammed owned and traded slaves and passed out captive women. He also sold women. He had people slaughtered if they made fun of him. His little child bride had to clean up gobs of sperm from his clothes.
We do not consider the Ahadith as being "Holy Scripture" or the Word of Allaah(swt) they are passed down accounts of men and as such are subject to error. Memory errors of what the witnesses saw, many of them did not write down their observations untile years after the fact.

While Ishaq did an excellent compilation of Hadith, they are considered Hasan (Good) but not Sahih(Verified to be probably true) What most people quote is what is alleged to be Ishaq's "Sirat Rasooluh Allah) For that there is nor given source for what is written. It is also not known how much of the book is actually what the originalcontained. Only one copy was ever made and when the was destroyed someone (I forgot who) attempted to recreate it from memory and when that was destroyed Hashim attempted to recreate that from memory. Hashim did also admit when he was not certain he attempted to write what he believed Ishaq would have written.
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Old 08-29-2015, 12:45 PM
 
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When Islam tosses out the hadiths, so will I. I am not using weak hadith and I think you know that.

The Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet (hadiths) are the primary sources from which Islamic beliefs and teachings are established.
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Old 08-29-2015, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
When Islam tosses out the hadiths, so will I. I am not using weak hadith and I think you know that.

The Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet (hadiths) are the primary sources from which Islamic beliefs and teachings are established.
While it is true the Qur'an and Sunnah are the primary souces. But the actual teachings are in the Madhabs and use several sources using the Hanafi Madhab as an example, the sources of learning are:

Quote:
The Hanafiyyah School is the first of the four orthodox Sunni schools of law. It is distinguished from the other schools through its placing less reliance on mass oral traditions as a source of legal knowledge. It developed the exegesis of the Qur'an through a method of analogical reasoning known as Qiyas. It also established the principle that the universal concurrence of the Ummah (community) of Islam on a point of law, as represented by legal and religious scholars, constituted evidence of the will of God. This process is called ijma', which means the consensus of the scholars. Thus, the school definitively established the Qur'an, the Traditions of the Prophet, ijma' and qiyas as the basis of Islamic law. In addition to these, Hanafi accepted local customs as a secondary source of the law.
Sunni Schools

I have not seen many Muslim posters tossing out Hadith. If I have done so I acknowledge it was an error to do so, unless it was a reply to aquestion regarding Ahadith. A Muslim who is not an established scholar of Hadith should avoid quoting Ahadith to prove a point of Islamic teaching.
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Old 08-29-2015, 02:55 PM
 
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"Qur'an and Sunnah are the primary souces"

Right. And that's what I research. The primary sources. And that is how I know what Muhammed did and what 'allah' demanded and will do to disbelievers.
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