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Old 08-24-2015, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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I wonder how you as a Muslim would respond within the commands of the following verses;
7:49. Are these [infidels] they of whom ye swore that Allah would not show them mercy? (Unto them [Muslims] it hath been said): Enter the Garden. No fear shall come upon you nor is it ye who will grieve.

7:50. And the dwellers of the Fire [infidels] cry out unto the dwellers of the Garden [Muslims];
Pour on us [infidels] some water or some of that [provisions] where with Allah hath provided you [Muslims].
They [the Muslims] say: Lo! Allah hath forbidden both to disbelievers [infidels] (in His guidance),

Let say you are in the hereafter in the midst of judgment and in the above conditions.
If the infidels [non-Muslims] who pleaded for water and provision were your parents, sons, relatives, friends, other non-Muslims, would you give them the water and provision in your hand.
Note there are many similar verses in the Quran.

The point is if any Muslim were to give water and provision to infidels, then they would have disobeyed Allah's rules and thus risk being sinned and thrown into Hell following that.
As a Muslim what will you do in the above circumstances.

It would appear the Quran do not encourage Muslims to show mercy and compassion to non-Muslims. If Muslim has any empathy, they would have to suppress it, otherwise if they act upon it against 7:59, it would be hell for them.

Another problem is Muslims are supposed to the view the Quran as real from God and obey whatever therein. Thus they will accept the concept of Hell in the Quran as very real as on Earth. Since they accept it as real, verses like 7:49-50 are likely to influence their current behavior as well, i.e. not be friendly nor help Muslim in any way as dictated by 7:49-50. This stance may be adopted by SOME Muslims.

Note similar verses of unfriendliness are express for the real world where Muslims are exhorted not be friendly [auliyaa] as protectors, allies, etc, and not to be intimate friends with non-Muslims. The fact is such a stance is adopted by SOME believers and together with the sword verses had contributed to terrible evils and violence around the world.
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Old 08-25-2015, 01:24 AM
 
4,629 posts, read 1,795,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I wonder how you as a Muslim would respond within the commands of the following verses;
7:49. Are these [infidels] they of whom ye swore that Allah would not show them mercy? (Unto them [Muslims] it hath been said): Enter the Garden. No fear shall come upon you nor is it ye who will grieve.

7:50. And the dwellers of the Fire [infidels] cry out unto the dwellers of the Garden [Muslims];
Pour on us [infidels] some water or some of that [provisions] where with Allah hath provided you [Muslims].
They [the Muslims] say: Lo! Allah hath forbidden both to disbelievers [infidels] (in His guidance),

Let say you are in the hereafter in the midst of judgment and in the above conditions.
If the infidels [non-Muslims] who pleaded for water and provision were your parents, sons, relatives, friends, other non-Muslims, would you give them the water and provision in your hand.
Note there are many similar verses in the Quran.

The point is if any Muslim were to give water and provision to infidels, then they would have disobeyed Allah's rules and thus risk being sinned and thrown into Hell following that.
As a Muslim what will you do in the above circumstances.

It would appear the Quran do not encourage Muslims to show mercy and compassion to non-Muslims. If Muslim has any empathy, they would have to suppress it, otherwise if they act upon it against 7:59, it would be hell for them.

Another problem is Muslims are supposed to the view the Quran as real from God and obey whatever therein. Thus they will accept the concept of Hell in the Quran as very real as on Earth. Since they accept it as real, verses like 7:49-50 are likely to influence their current behavior as well, i.e. not be friendly nor help Muslim in any way as dictated by 7:49-50. This stance may be adopted by SOME Muslims.

Note similar verses of unfriendliness are express for the real world where Muslims are exhorted not be friendly [auliyaa] as protectors, allies, etc, and not to be intimate friends with non-Muslims. The fact is such a stance is adopted by SOME believers and together with the sword verses had contributed to terrible evils and violence around the world.

So say for example, your best friend has committed a serious crime, he was proven guilty in Supreme Court and the judge assigns him life in prison with no parole under a presidential order.

Now, one day you go meet your friend or talk to him over the phone. And he tells you,

"Hey, Continuum, look you have freedom and I don't. Can you give me some of your freedom?"

What are you gonna tell him? "Yeah, I am a merciful Athiest, so here, take a little part of my freedom and spend a week in Vegas, and while we are at it, here is the hotel and casino tickets plus the free meal pass and escort service."

No!
You are probably gonna say, "It's not in my hands to give you part of my freedom. It's the higher authority that has got you locked up for what you did."

Think about it, the purpose of the verse is not humanitic mercy in the hereafter. The purpose is to tell that, be NOT among those who will yearn for water. Be among those who will have blessings and glad tidings.

And this life time is your chance to do it. TRY to be among the blessed ones by the support of your good actions and by trying to avoid what's not recommended.

There are many MANY, MANY Muslim welfare organizations and charitable work that helps non-Muslims (including providing them clean drinking water) - No such thing had existed if the Quranic verses you posted had the twisted meaning as you manipulated in your commentary.

This life is very short - it will be over before you know it so worry about yourself - and try to be not among the losers in the hereafter.
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Old 08-25-2015, 02:07 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 797,219 times
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"And this life time is your chance to do it. TRY to be among the blessed ones by the support of your good actions and by trying to avoid what's not recommended."

Here's the rub. There are people like me who are very moral. I've spent a great deal of time learning and thinking and watching humans and forming my ethics. I have strong moral values that I take very seriously. The root of my moral values is that initiation of force against others is evil. I do not think that morality is subjective. Rape, slavery, terrorism, slaughtering people who do not agree with you .... always evil no matter who does it or when.

Several years ago I started learning Islam. I learned that the Quran promotes initiation of force against others and that I was one of those destined for Islam's eternal punishment and hate. I also learned that Muhammed raped a child, let his men mass rape women, owned and traded slaves, sold women and passed captive women around like party favors. I learned that the Quran puts women below men and allows men to beat women. I learned that Muhammed raped women and ordered his men to slaughter people who did not agree with him. And much more.

Islam is evil. There is NO DOUBT in my mind. I am GOOD. There is no doubt in my mind. I have strong moral values (honesty, justice, productivity, rationality, self-esteem, integrity, courage, independence of mind) and Islam flies in the face of all my moral values.

Because I am GOOD and will not become EVIL, Islam demands that I be hated, possibly slaughtered and that I spend eternity in hellfire. That's the bottom line here. Because I will not toss out my moral values and submit to one of the most evil men to ever walk the face of the earth, I am to be damned for all time. THAT'S what is going on here, like it or not. I read the Quran and hadiths. I KNOW.

The good news is that there is no allah and I will not be roasting in hell for eternity. I will live a moral and happy life and when I die I will simply cease to exist, as will all humans.

The bad news is that Muslims are following a very evil ideology and following an example set by a monster. Many, many millions of humans have been slaughtered in the name of Islam. Many millions more have been enslaved, raped, tortured. Countries are being ruined. And I see no hope that it will get better. I am convinced it will get much worse. All because of one very evil man who started an evil ideology that somehow gathered well over a billion followers. It's a very sad statement about mankind.
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Old 08-25-2015, 02:42 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 797,219 times
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"There are many MANY, MANY Muslim welfare organizations and charitable work that helps non-Muslims (including providing them clean drinking water) - No such thing had existed if the Quranic verses you posted had the twisted meaning as you manipulated in your commentary."

The Quran says:

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.


and:

Sahih International
And you were not expecting that the Book would be conveyed to you, but [it is] a mercy from your Lord. So do not be an assistant to the disbelievers.
Pickthall
Thou hadst no hope that the Scripture would be inspired in thee; but it is a mercy from thy Lord, so never be a helper to the disbelievers.
Yusuf Ali
And thou hadst not expected that the Book would be sent to thee except as a Mercy from thy Lord: Therefore lend not thou support in any way to those who reject (Allah's Message).


From the hadiths we read this:

Muslim (1:153) - The best of all good deeds, according to Muhammad is "jihad for the cause of Allah" (not charity toward others).

Bukhari (55:558) - The Prophet said, "I give to them so as to attract their hearts to Islam." The only example of Muhammad ever providing charity to non-Muslims was when it served the purpose of expanding personal power, either to buy conversions or loyalty (see Bukhari 53:373).

Abu Dawud (41:4832) - The Messenger of Allah [said] "Do not keep company with anyone but a believer and do not let anyone eat your food but one who is pious."

Reliance of the Traveller (Sharia) - "It is not permissible to give zakat to a non-Muslim." The same text goes on to list the legitimate targets of charity, which include "those fighting for Allah, meaning people engaged in Islamic military operations." This is based on verse 9:60 from the Quran ("in the cause of Allah"). See also 9:41.

Numerous hadith also mention giving to the poor (within the Muslim community). This is the zakat, or almsgiving, that has become one of the "five pillars" of Islam.

al-Tabarani, Hasan - "The most beloved of deeds according to Allah the Mighty, the Magnificent, is that you bring happiness to a fellow Muslim, or relieve him of distress, or pay off his debt or stave away hunger from him.” In Christianity, charity is for those in need, with exceptionalism noted in cases in which the grantee is an enemy (ie. Parable of the Good Samaritan). In Islam, targets of the highest virtue are from within one's own identity group.

al-Tabari 8:40 - "Aisha, the Mother of the Faithful, was asked, ‘How did the Messenger of Allah behave?’ She replied, ‘His eye did not weep for anyone." In real life, Muhammad was not a compassionate man.


Do you have any verses that say that Muslims should give to non-Muslims? Looks to me that the money is taken as a tax or booty from the non-Muslims.

And I question your assertion that " There are many MANY, MANY Muslim welfare organizations and charitable work that helps non-Muslims "

You give no evidence of this at all. I read this:

A 2011 audit of one of Canada's top Islamic charities (run by ISNA, no less) found that less than 25% of the "poor tax" actually found its way to the needy. The vast majority of zakat funds went to mosque maintenance, private Muslim businesses and even perks to the family members of charity officials.

Muslim 'charities' include millions and millions of dollars in building mosques, expanding Muslim groups like CAIR (who funnel money to terrorism) and other groups who are caught funding terrorism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_to_terrorism

Over and over Muslim charities are caught giving money to terrorism.

So when not funding terrorism, do charity dollars go to non-Muslims? Not that I can see. Let's look at a huge Muslim charity and see what we can see:

Islamic Relief and the Myth of Non-Discriminating Muslim Charity

You need to prove that there are ""There are many MANY, MANY Muslim welfare organizations and charitable work that helps non-Muslims".
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Old 08-25-2015, 03:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,695,853 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
So say for example, your best friend has committed a serious crime, he was proven guilty in Supreme Court and the judge assigns him life in prison with no parole under a presidential order.

Now, one day you go meet your friend or talk to him over the phone. And he tells you,

"Hey, Continuum, look you have freedom and I don't. Can you give me some of your freedom?"

What are you gonna tell him? "Yeah, I am a merciful Athiest, so here, take a little part of my freedom and spend a week in Vegas, and while we are at it, here is the hotel and casino tickets plus the free meal pass and escort service."

No!
You are probably gonna say, "It's not in my hands to give you part of my freedom. It's the higher authority that has got you locked up for what you did."

Think about it, the purpose of the verse is not humanitic mercy in the hereafter. The purpose is to tell that, be NOT among those who will yearn for water. Be among those who will have blessings and glad tidings.

And this life time is your chance to do it. TRY to be among the blessed ones by the support of your good actions and by trying to avoid what's not recommended.

There are many MANY, MANY Muslim welfare organizations and charitable work that helps non-Muslims (including providing them clean drinking water) - No such thing had existed if the Quranic verses you posted had the twisted meaning as you manipulated in your commentary.

This life is very short - it will be over before you know it so worry about yourself - and try to be not among the losers in the hereafter.
You seem have misunderstood the point.

Note the infidels already know they are going to hell in the midst of the Fire has no chance for freedom to heaven at all.
So it is not a question of asking for 'freedom'.

In this case, what the infidels are merely asking for immediate relief for their theist and hunger ONLY at that moment when the Muslims come across either their infidels, parents, sons, relatives, friends, other non-Muslims. They are pleading for that moment and not for the future. In the next hour they could have been roasted who knows.

Will any Muslims answer their pleas?
Would they in view of 7:49-50?

Quote:
There are many MANY, MANY Muslim welfare organizations and charitable work that helps non-Muslims (including providing them clean drinking water)
The above are definitely human acts of charity compassions. That is no doubts are them.

My question is, will such act contradict 7:49-50 since what is real in this World is the same as in the hereafter for Muslims.

Btw, the Quran exhort reader to reflect and I think it very essential to ask questions and reflect.
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,718,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You seem have misunderstood the point.

Note the infidels already know they are going to hell in the midst of the Fire has no chance for freedom to heaven at all.
So it is not a question of asking for 'freedom'.

In this case, what the infidels are merely asking for immediate relief for their theist and hunger ONLY at that moment when the Muslims come across either their infidels, parents, sons, relatives, friends, other non-Muslims. They are pleading for that moment and not for the future. In the next hour they could have been roasted who knows.

Will any Muslims answer their pleas?
Would they in view of 7:49-50?

The above are definitely human acts of charity compassions. That is no doubts are them.

My question is, will such act contradict 7:49-50 since what is real in this World is the same as in the hereafter for Muslims.

Btw, the Quran exhort reader to reflect and I think it very essential to ask questions and reflect.
quite a few questions for one post.

Looking at this statement:

"Note the infidels already know they are going to hell in the midst of the Fire has no chance for freedom to heaven at all.
So it is not a question of asking for 'freedom"

You are asserting they know they are destined to Hell, why then don't they comply and do what is required to go to heaven?

If they do not know through no fault of their own, they will be judged only by their own free will actions. It is about freedom. We all are free to choose heaven or hell and none of us will be judged for what we have no way to know or the ability to do.

It is like going to the airport to buy a ticket to Paris. But we like the looks of the plane that is going to Hog Eye Arkansas better than the plane that is going to Paris.So we buy a ticket to HogEye, are we being denied Paris and punished because we made a free choice to take the plane that is not going to Paris?.

Is 7:49-50 a complete statement?


Is it not talking about Muslims that deliberatly decided to take the wrong plane and ended up in Hell instead of Heaven, knowing they were choosing the plane Hell and are now complaining about their choice.

Between them is a veil. And on the Heights are men who know them all by their marks. And they call unto the dwellers of the Garden: Peace be unto you! They enter it not although they hope (to enter). - 7:46 (Picktall)

Al-A'raf (The Heights) - 47

And when their eyes are turned toward the dwellers of the Fire, they say: Our Lord! Place us not with the wrongdoing folk. - 7:47 (Picktall)

Al-A'raf (The Heights) - 48

And the dwellers on the Heights call unto men whom they know by their marks, (saying): What did your multitude and that in which ye took your pride avail you? - 7:48 (Picktall)

Al-A'raf (The Heights) - 49

Are these they of whom ye swore that Allah would not show them mercy? (Unto them it hath been said): Enter the Garden. No fear shall come upon you nor is it ye who will grieve. - 7:49 (Picktall)

Al-A'raf (The Heights) - 50

And the dwellers of the Fire cry out unto the dwellers of the Garden; Pour on us some water or some of that where with Allah hath provided you. They say: Lo! Allah hath forbidden both to disbelievers (in His guidance), - 7:50 (Picktall)

Al-A'raf (The Heights) - 51

Who took their religion for a sport and pastime, and whom the life of the world beguiled. So this day We have forgotten them even as they forgot the meeting of this Day and as they used to deny Our tokens. - 7:51 (Picktall)
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:38 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 797,219 times
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"You are asserting they know they are destined to Hell, why then don't they comply and do what is required to go to heaven?"

Morality. They may be fooled into thinking Muhammed is a prophet, but when they see him raping a child and having people slaughtered for just speaking against him...when they see Muhammed's hatred and demands for terrorism and hear about how much allah hates them, maybe they have the thoughts along the lines that many Americans have had: Give me liberty or give me death! I will not turn evil for all the tea in China.

Also, as I have said numerous times, people do not start believing something at the point of a sword and death threat so do these people really believe they will go to hell? If I point a gun at you and demand that you abandon belief in allah and be an atheist, can you do it? No. That's not how belief works. This whole 'convert this instant or die and suffer everlasting torture' is unspeakably evil.
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,718,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"You are asserting they know they are destined to Hell, why then don't they comply and do what is required to go to heaven?"

Morality. They may be fooled into thinking Muhammed is a prophet, but when they see him raping a child and having people slaughtered for just speaking against him...when they see Muhammed's hatred and demands for terrorism and hear about how much allah hates them, maybe they have the thoughts along the lines that many Americans have had: Give me liberty or give me death! I will not turn evil for all the tea in China.

Also, as I have said numerous times, people do not start believing something at the point of a sword and death threat so do these people really believe they will go to hell? If I point a gun at you and demand that you abandon belief in allah and be an atheist, can you do it? No. That's not how belief works. This whole 'convert this instant or die and suffer everlasting torture' is unspeakably evil.
We are forbidden to force anyone to convert. Besides as you said it would be impossible to force them to.

a paradox in a comment some non-Muslims make. "Muslims force conversions. But we collect Dhimmi tax from non-Muslims." That statement is contradictory. From an economic view, it would be better to forbid non-Muslims to convert and collect the Jizyah from them.

There is no incentive or reason to force conversions and it would be impossible to prove a person converted. Historically forced ideology is very expensive to enforce, especially when it reduces income. As Muslims we do not pay any money to support some central Islamic bigwigs or agency. We are a low budget religion and do not tithe. Most of us are cheapskates and won't even donat to help an Imam meet Mosque expenses.

Yes we do annually give 2,5% of the value of our belonging but we give that anonymously to those in need we choose to give to. We are not reveal to anyone how much we give or who we give too, unless there is an expectation it will encourage others to give. Such as when Saudi donates to non-Muslims.

Saudi Arabia donates $50 million to Haiti in aid relief - Worldnews.com
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:09 PM
 
4,629 posts, read 1,795,252 times
Reputation: 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"And this life time is your chance to do it. TRY to be among the blessed ones by the support of your good actions and by trying to avoid what's not recommended."

Here's the rub. There are people like me who are very moral. I've spent a great deal of time learning and thinking and watching humans and forming my ethics. I have strong moral values that I take very seriously. The root of my moral values is that initiation of force against others is evil. I do not think that morality is subjective. Rape, slavery, terrorism, slaughtering people who do not agree with you .... always evil no matter who does it or when.

Several years ago I started learning Islam. I learned that the Quran promotes initiation of force against others and that I was one of those destined for Islam's eternal punishment and hate. I also learned that Muhammed raped a child, let his men mass rape women, owned and traded slaves, sold women and passed captive women around like party favors. I learned that the Quran puts women below men and allows men to beat women. I learned that Muhammed raped women and ordered his men to slaughter people who did not agree with him. And much more.

Islam is evil. There is NO DOUBT in my mind. I am GOOD. There is no doubt in my mind. I have strong moral values (honesty, justice, productivity, rationality, self-esteem, integrity, courage, independence of mind) and Islam flies in the face of all my moral values.

Because I am GOOD and will not become EVIL, Islam demands that I be hated, possibly slaughtered and that I spend eternity in hellfire. That's the bottom line here. Because I will not toss out my moral values and submit to one of the most evil men to ever walk the face of the earth, I am to be damned for all time. THAT'S what is going on here, like it or not. I read the Quran and hadiths. I KNOW.

The good news is that there is no allah and I will not be roasting in hell for eternity. I will live a moral and happy life and when I die I will simply cease to exist, as will all humans.

The bad news is that Muslims are following a very evil ideology and following an example set by a monster. Many, many millions of humans have been slaughtered in the name of Islam. Many millions more have been enslaved, raped, tortured. Countries are being ruined. And I see no hope that it will get better. I am convinced it will get much worse. All because of one very evil man who started an evil ideology that somehow gathered well over a billion followers. It's a very sad statement about mankind.
As said earlier: The above is YOUR perception based on YOUR intelligence, YOUR logic and YOUR research.
You made a choice to follow a certain path (whichever that is) based on YOUR free will.

And at the end of the day, we will be responsible for the choices we have made.

So we shall wait, and we will find out.
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:54 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 797,219 times
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"We are forbidden to force anyone to convert."

Wrong.

" Besides as you said it would be impossible to force them to."

Not quite. It is impossible to force BELIEF. People pretend to convert to save their own lives and the lives of their families.

Because it is impossible to force belief on people did not stop Muhammed from demanding conversion or death.

Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them (Quran 9:5)

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)

Can you say Muhammed was evil to do these things??? No, I didn't think so.

"There is no incentive or reason to force conversions"

Sure there is. Muhammed the perfect example to follow did it!

Qur'an (8:39) - “And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” Translation from the Noble Quran

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Qur'an (3:83) - "Are they seeking a religion other than Allah's, when every soul in the heavens and the earth has sub mitted to Him, willingly or by compulsion?"

Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."
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