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Old 08-29-2015, 12:54 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
True we will all be judged and we will all receive rewards and Punishments in accordance with what we have earned. All of our good deeds will be rewarded, including those of an Atheist and all evil deeds will be punished even those done by a Muslim.
Atheist rewarded for good deeds ?? -first time I hear of this

There is no favorable rewards for the atheist, the infidel, kuffar, kafir, kafara.
90:19. But those [infidels] who disbelieve Our revelations, their place will be on the left hand.
Those [atheists, infidels, non-Muslims] on the left hand are destined to HELL with eternal torment.

Quote:
we do not even no who is a Muslim. We can only see the physical actions, but even a non-Muslim could perform the actions.
We do not really know the criteria Alaah(swt) will judge us by, we are only told it will be fair and just. But somethings we do know is we will only be judged for that we do of our own free will and our ability to do so with full knowledge of the consequences.
The Quran is very specific on what a Muslim is.
First there is a minimum requirement of surrender/submission to Allah with the minimal conditions;
6:19. Say (O Muhammad) : What thing is of most weight [strongest] in testimony?
Say: Allah is witness between you and me.
And this Qur'an hath been inspired in me, that I may warn therewith you and whomsoever it may reach.
Do ye in truth bear witness that there are gods beside Allah?
Say : I bear no such witness.
Say: He is only One God. Lo! I am innocent of that which ye [infidels] associate (with Him).

To proceed to be at true Muslim one must establish 'belief' and take upon the maximum weight of what is dictated in the Quran's 6,236 verses.

This is why I stated a good Muslim must take the 6,236 verses of the Quran as a checklist and ensure they comply to the max of the expectations of the whole Quran. Of course most will not be able perform to the full expectation of the Quran but they need to be aware of the full expectations and take note of how much their actual performance fall short of the ideal.
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Old 08-29-2015, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Atheist rewarded for good deeds ?? -first time I hear of this

There is no favorable rewards for the atheist, the infidel, kuffar, kafir, kafara.
90:19. But those [infidels] who disbelieve Our revelations, their place will be on the left hand.
Those [atheists, infidels, non-Muslims] on the left hand are destined to HELL with eternal torment.

The Quran is very specific on what a Muslim is.
First there is a minimum requirement of surrender/submission to Allah with the minimal conditions;
6:19. Say (O Muhammad) : What thing is of most weight [strongest] in testimony?
Say: Allah is witness between you and me.
And this Qur'an hath been inspired in me, that I may warn therewith you and whomsoever it may reach.
Do ye in truth bear witness that there are gods beside Allah?
Say : I bear no such witness.
Say: He is only One God. Lo! I am innocent of that which ye [infidels] associate (with Him).

To proceed to be at true Muslim one must establish 'belief' and take upon the maximum weight of what is dictated in the Quran's 6,236 verses.

This is why I stated a good Muslim must take the 6,236 verses of the Quran as a checklist and ensure they comply to the max of the expectations of the whole Quran. Of course most will not be able perform to the full expectation of the Quran but they need to be aware of the full expectations and take note of how much their actual performance fall short of the ideal.
While that is the source for the Shahadah, (There is no God, but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah) and the minimum requirement to be a Muslim is to say Shahadah. The fact is just because a person said the Shahadah even if they say it in front of witnesses, we do not know if they are Muslim. They may not understand the meaning, they may be saying it in mockery and not be sincere. We only know who claims to be a Muslim we do not know who is Musljm as we can not see into another person's heart or thoughts or know their own intentions. If you were to say the Shahadah this moment I would accept you as being Muslim until you say you are not.

I suspect there are recruits to ISIS who join only because they crave violence and do not even believe Allaah(swt) exists. They are saying the Shahadah only because they think it is a "club" requirement. they do not believe in Islam but they like the "thrill" of war. If a person had desires to be an mercenary or is just evil I am certain they would be attracted to ISIS and would join if possible, and never have any belief in Islam or Allaah(swt)

As for Atheists being rewarded for their good deed, the rewards can be granted during a person's lifetime, while in the grave or in the hereafter. You will be rewarded for your good deeds. Not because you require or desire reward, but because you deserve it. I doubt you do any good deeds in anticipation of reward, which is a admirable attitude worthy of reward. I do know atheists are often generous and strive to do good for others.

There are more rewards and punishments besides heaven and hell. Also a person that gets sent to hell might be rewarded by being sent to a higher level of hell. We know there are at least 7 levels of hell, the Qur'an describes only the lowest level of hell, who knows the higher levels might even be similar to life on earth but without knowledge of Allaah(swt) I do not know what the higher levels of hell might be like. Perhaps we are not told of them so we do not become complacent and not try to strive for better.

My family followed many to the traditions and beliefs of our oriental ancestors (My Ancestors are Tatar, specifically- Lietuva Lipkas-Lithuanian Tatars from the Golden horde-aka Mongol) although we were Roman Catholics. Some concepts I was raised with are still deeply embedded. I was raised to show joy when a person died as they have escaped the pains of life. I was taught to mourn a birth as it meant a person was beginning their suffering. Among my relatives there is somewhat of a belief that earthly life is actually hell that we as sinners are sent to and our eternal punishment is continuous reincarnation back to earth.
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Old 08-31-2015, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While that is the source for the Shahadah, (There is no God, but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah) and the minimum requirement to be a Muslim is to say Shahadah. The fact is just because a person said the Shahadah even if they say it in front of witnesses, we do not know if they are Muslim.
They may not understand the meaning, they may be saying it in mockery and not be sincere. We only know who claims to be a Muslim we do not know who is Musljm as we can not see into another person's heart or thoughts or know their own intentions. If you were to say the Shahadah this moment I would accept you as being Muslim until you say you are not.
Who are you to say, they are not Muslims?
It is very wrong of you to decide against what God has dictated in the Quran.

There are various conditions of being a Muslim and the saying of the Shahadah is the entry point condition. Therefore one who had said the Shahadah is a Muslim.
The Quran never said one must verbally declare the shahadah, so I presume a silent mental thought of it would also qualify as a Muslim. To be more precise one should qualify such a person as an initiate Muslim, or whatever the factual description.

This is the submission phase. Note I the thread 'Belief stronger than submit'.
Once a person has declared himself to be a Muslim [initiate] then they have to proceed to develop their 'belief' phase as stipulated in the Quran, e.g. perform the 5 pillars and other dictates of the Quran.

As I had stated the 6,236 verses represent 100% of what is Islam and to be a 100% Muslim one must comply with the elements and properties of the 6,236 verses. It is not likely that one can be a 100% Muslim thus one must strive to the highest possible.

According the Quran Allah will calculate the Muslim's performance and reward them accordingly on Judgment Day.

Quote:
I suspect there are recruits to ISIS who join only because they crave violence
and do not even believe Allaah(swt) exists. They are saying the Shahadah only
because they think it is a "club" requirement. they do not believe in Islam but
they like the "thrill" of war. If a person had desires to be an mercenary or is
just evil I am certain they would be attracted to ISIS and would join if
possible, and never have any belief in Islam or Allaah(swt)
That is possible but that would be rare cases. The Quran is very strict about hypocrites and I don't think the majority of truer Muslims within the ISIS community would tolerate such people and I believe they are sensitive to smell out any rats.

Note Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has a PhD in religious studies. We don't have the truth at present, but I like to think most of the top people in ISIS and other extremist organization are very well educated with Islam in accordance to the expectations of the Quran.
I think they will score highly when measured against the Quran as a checklist.

Note there are 300+ verses related to war in the Quran. I am sure the jihadists would comply 90-100% on these verses while the moderate would take up at the most at 50%. In this case the moderates had already lost 300++ points for a start.

There are more than 500++ verses relating to cruelty. I am sure the jihadists would relish these verses at 90-100% while the moderate will close both eyes to such verses.
There are 3000++ verses of various degrees that are contemptuous to non-Muslims, infidels, kafir, kuffar, kafara and the likes. Obviously the moderates like you will ignore these elements while the jihadists will feast on them with 90-100% intensity.

From the above the moderates are already 3800++ points down on the jihadists in terms of compliance to the expectations within the Quran.

Therefore it would appear [hypothesis] [I doing detail analysis on this] the jihadists are truer Muslim in strict accordance to the Quran - the core of Islam.

Agree?
Any counter points to the above?


Quote:
As for Atheists being rewarded for their good
deed, the rewards can be granted during a person's lifetime, while in the grave
or in the hereafter. You will be rewarded for your good deeds. Not because you
require or desire reward, but because you deserve it. I doubt you do any good
deeds in anticipation of reward, which is a admirable attitude worthy of reward.
I do know atheists are often generous and strive to do good for others.

You are speaking as a human but not as what the Quran dictates.
The Quranic law is very obvious, once a person is a kafir, the only reward is Hell.
The Quran relate 'reward' with kafir, but this 'reward' is a negative reward, i.e. a penalty and punishment.



Quote:
There are more rewards and punishments besides heaven and hell. Also a person that gets sent to hell might be rewarded by being sent to a higher level of hell. We know there are at least 7 levels of hell, the Qur'an describes only the lowest level of hell, who knows the higher levels might even be similar to life on earth but without knowledge of Allaah(swt) I do not know what the higher levels of hell might be like. Perhaps we are not told of them so we do not become complacent and not try to strive for better..
I have informed you, by now I am very familiar with the Quran. If it is not stated in the Quran, then the 7 levels of hell is false.
You as a human cannot add or take away God's complete and perfected Quran.
If you want to be a better Muslim, don't try to change the Quran.
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Old 08-31-2015, 03:57 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't see a specific detailed criteria in the Quran to show how a Muslim should perform the test to ensure they get the best grades to become a First Class Honor Muslim.


4. Other methods ?? What are your methods of rating?


What do you think your score will be?
Muslims just try to do what they can.

I remember an imam saying that some people pray a lot, others give a lot of money to charity, others help/support their familly (a disabled, old person for ex, or just visiting someone in a hospital ), others fast a lot (in Islam it's good to fast on monday and tuesday) etc.
Humans are different so we do what we find most easy and appealing for us, whatever we choose it's good.

By the way even smiling is a charity in Islam. So even if you have nothing to give to people, you can just be kind with others.
A good action = 10
A bad action = 1

When you read the Quran and learn verses/sourates it's also good for you and may save you or give you great benefices in this life or hereafter.

And some actions erase the bad ones like :

Forgiving people
Fasting for Arafat and Achoura's day
etc

People don't count.
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Old 08-31-2015, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Who are you to say, they are not Muslims?
It is very wrong of you to decide against what God has dictated in the Quran.

There are various conditions of being a Muslim and the saying of the Shahadah is the entry point condition. Therefore one who had said the Shahadah is a Muslim.
The Quran never said one must verbally declare the shahadah, so I presume a silent mental thought of it would also qualify as a Muslim. To be more precise one should qualify such a person as an initiate Muslim, or whatever the factual description.

I did not say we know who is not a Muslim

What I said was

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
While that is the source for the Shahadah, (There is no God, but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah) and the minimum requirement to be a Muslim is to say Shahadah. The fact is just because a person said the Shahadah even if they say it in front of witnesses, we do not know if they are Muslim.
They may not understand the meaning, they may be saying it in mockery and not be sincere. We only know who claims to be a Muslim we do not know who is Musljm as we can not see into another person's heart or thoughts or know their own intentions. If you were to say the Shahadah this moment I would accept you as being Muslim until you say you are not.
We only know who says they are a Muslim.If you were to say you are a Muslim, I would assume you are. But, I do not know if you or anyone else is or is not a Muslim. I only have what they tell me to go on.

Yes a silent saying of the Shahadah in their heart would qualify a person as being a Muslim. But I would not know if they did or did not. I accept all people who say they are Muslim as being Muslim. But I will speak out to them and let them know if I see them doing an action I believe is not Islamic and give them the reasons I believe it is not Islamic. It is their responsibility to verify if what I tell them is correct. Most likely if they believe I am wrong they will give me the reasons they believe I am wrong.

I do not know who is not a Muslim unless they say they are not. The only way I can suspect a person is not a Muslim is if they consistently rerffuse to do one of the pillars of faith.
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Old 08-31-2015, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Muslims just try to do what they can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
I remember an imam saying that some people pray a lot, others give a lot of money to charity, others help/support their familly (a disabled, old person for ex, or just visiting someone in a hospital ), others fast a lot (in Islam it's good to fast on monday and tuesday) etc.
Humans are different so we do what we find most easy and appealing for us, whatever we choose it's good.

By the way even smiling is a charity in Islam. So even if you have nothing to give to people, you can just be kind with others.
A good action = 10
A bad action = 1

When you read the Quran and learn verses/sourates it's also good for you and may save you or give you great benefices in this life or hereafter.

And some actions erase the bad ones like :

Forgiving people
Fasting for Arafat and Achoura's day
etc

People don't count.
Try to do what they can?
You will not know what you have been trying to do as a Muslims could be wrong!
One cannot just guess or merely listen to a iman or so-called experts.

What you are proposing is a hit and miss approach.

To be a better Muslim, the only sole reference is the Quran [with some assistance from related texts].

It is so easy, just list out the 6,236 verses of the Quran and tick off each verses in relation to one's compliance to each verse. Of course one must understand the essence of the message, again this is not difficult.

I have read the Quran extensively in great depth and there is nothing complicated. Most of the verses are kindergarten ABC, 1+1=2 types and not like E=MC2.


Here is what is it to be a good Muslim and it can be computed.
61:10. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Shall I show you a commerce [transaction, deal] that will save you [Muslims] from a painful doom? [i.e. a net profit on J-Day]

A Muslims can compute [do his accounting] in advance on how well he will get rewarded in heaven.

My proposals above is the most effective.
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Old 08-31-2015, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I did not say we know who is not a Muslim

What I said was


We only know who says they are a Muslim.If you were to say you are a Muslim, I would assume you are. But, I do not know if you or anyone else is or is not a Muslim. I only have what they tell me to go on.

Yes a silent saying of the Shahadah in their heart would qualify a person as being a Muslim. But I would not know if they did or did not. I accept all people who say they are Muslim as being Muslim. But I will speak out to them and let them know if I see them doing an action I believe is not Islamic and give them the reasons I believe it is not Islamic. It is their responsibility to verify if what I tell them is correct. Most likely if they believe I am wrong they will give me the reasons they believe I am wrong.

I do not know who is not a Muslim unless they say they are not. The only way I can suspect a person is not a Muslim is if they consistently rerffuse to do one of the pillars of faith.
To be a Muslim is a personal and private affair.

Quote:
But, I do not know if you or anyone else is or is not a Muslim.
What is so difficult about that.
If you are not sure just ask the person to declare the sahada. That is so easy and I am sure any Muslim would not mind at all. If one is still suspicious then resort to a lie detector.
When someone declare the sahada voluntarily then one is technically a Muslim and the matter is between the person and Allah. That is how Islam operate.

If a person is lying all the way, there is nothing an outsider can do about it except to perform the necessary verifications to convince oneself, but Allah is supposed to know, so why the concern.

In the first place and premise, it is impossible for God to exists.
Thus whatever follows is based on this falsehood.
The best one can do is to play the game within the confines of such a framework and system, albeit being grounded on falsehoods.
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Old 09-01-2015, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To be a Muslim is a personal and private affair.

What is so difficult about that.
If you are not sure just ask the person to declare the sahada. That is so easy and I am sure any Muslim would not mind at all. If one is still suspicious then resort to a lie detector.
When someone declare the sahada voluntarily then one is technically a Muslim and the matter is between the person and Allah. That is how Islam operate.

If a person is lying all the way, there is nothing an outsider can do about it except to perform the necessary verifications to convince oneself, but Allah is supposed to know, so why the concern.

In the first place and premise, it is impossible for God to exists.
Thus whatever follows is based on this falsehood.
The best one can do is to play the game within the confines of such a framework and system, albeit being grounded on falsehoods.
If a person says he.she IS NOT A MUSLIM that is cut and dry. the person is not--provided they are saying so of their own free will and understand what is meant by Muslim.

During the Spanish Inquesition there were Muslims they denied being Muslim to save their own lives., they were wrongly committing taqiyya. It would have been more admirable it they had refused to deny their being Muslim. but I am not going to Judge them. Simple point being We only have a person"sw word that they are of are not a Muslim. We do not know, unless we can see into their thoughts, intentions and beliefs.


The same is true when a person claims to be Muslim. We do not KNOW we assume even if they say the Shahadah in front of us. We assume they are Muslim, but we do not know as we do not know their sincerity in doing so or if they even understand what they are saying.

We can not prove a person says the 5 obligatory prayers every day, of their own free will, we can not prove the believe that their is only one God(swt) we can not prove they fast during Ramadan and do not sneak in a drink of water or a bite of a sandwhich etc.

We can not prove who is or is not a Muslim we have to take them at their word.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-01-2015 at 08:05 AM.. Reason: Corrected typo--I had typed 6 not 5 obligatory prayers
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Old 09-01-2015, 08:00 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
[indent]Try to do what they can?
You will not know what you have been trying to do as a Muslims could be wrong!
One cannot just guess or merely listen to a iman or so-called experts.

What you are proposing is a hit and miss approach.

God is the one who counts for us. He's the only one who knows if we did a lot of good deeds and if many were erased. We can't do that by ourselves.
In many hadiths it says that a good action = 10 until 700
Going to the mosque, for each step it's a good action
Each letter of the Quran that you read it's a good action
A smile (as a kindness to people) , a good action
Etc ......

This is in the Quran and the hadiths.

33.39 (...) And sufficient is Allah as Accountant.


35.32 Then we caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself, and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allah . That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty.

Each one is different and have a different degree of faith.
Some may did nothing or a little when younger or bad things, then do a lot after.
Other are always in the "middle"
Orther are very religious
Etc ... like in the other religions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
[indent]
A Muslims can compute [do his accounting] in advance on how well he will get rewarded in heaven.

My proposals above is the most effective.
Thanks for the tip... but it's impossible to know many things like i said above.
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Old 09-01-2015, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
God is the one who counts for us. He's the only one who knows if we did a lot of good deeds and if many were erased. We can't do that by ourselves.
In many hadiths it says that a good action = 10 until 700
Going to the mosque, for each step it's a good action
Each letter of the Quran that you read it's a good action
A smile (as a kindness to people) , a good action
Etc ......

This is in the Quran and the hadiths.

33.39 (...) And sufficient is Allah as Accountant.


35.32 Then we caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself, and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allah . That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty.

Each one is different and have a different degree of faith.
Some may did nothing or a little when younger or bad things, then do a lot after.
Other are always in the "middle"
Orther are very religious
Etc ... like in the other religions.



Thanks for the tip... but it's impossible to know many things like i said above.
How can you say, 'We can't do that by ourselves.'
If I can list 100 favorable things for you to do now surely you know what you are supposed to do and do you best to do them all.

The Quran is clearly within your sight. The Quran's 6,236 verses are easy to understand.
Note the 6,236 verses comprise those elements that need to be believed, those that need to be acted upon and others.
Why guess, all you need to do is to list out the 6,236 verses and marked them out.
Of course not every one will have perfect marks but at least one is aware of the 100% [if not almost] require to be a Muslim and where one fall short and thus take steps to improve on it.

Note verse 35:32 which is a Meccan verse and thus need to be supplemented with the various verses that exhort Muslims to compete with one another to be the best Muslim on can be. Here are the following verse which are of relevance to avoid a charge of contradiction in the Quran.
3:133. And vie one with another for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Paradise as wide as are the heavens and the earth, prepared for those who ward off (evil);

56:10. And the foremost in the race, the foremost in the race:

5:48 ............ So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye [people] will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
The above are merely a sample, there are many other similar verses that exhort Muslims to compete to be the better Muslim.
The only way to vie and compete in the race or journey is to take the 6,236 verses [100%] and find out what is needed to be done.
The Quran is supposed to be from God so a Muslim has to believe in God's words rather than the interpretations and expositions [Hadiths etc.] which are merely for secondary guidance only.

So it is NOT impossible to know what it take to be the better or best Muslims one can be. The answer is only in God's word, i.e. the Quran. So one must start with the 6,236 verses [100%] in the Quran and used that as a checklist to measure one achievement as a Muslim.

Note on the above checklist basis, my hypothesis is the fundamentalist is a much better Muslim than the 'moderate' Muslim.
The consolations is the moderate Muslims is a better universal human being [Human Checklist] than the fundamentalist Muslim.
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