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Old 09-02-2015, 07:10 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,449 times
Reputation: 90

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
How can you say, 'We can't do that by ourselves.'
If I can list 100 favorable things for you to do now surely you know what you are supposed to do and do you best to do them all.
Yes, but if a good action = 10 until 700 how i can know how much good actions i have at the end ?
If i go to the mosque, should i be concentrated to count each step i do (as there's a reward for each steps) etc ...
Should i count the number of smile i give to people ?
How can we know for sure our fast is accepted or how much of the reward we'll have if we were angry that day, loose patience or whatever ?
And do really think we only have that to do ?

Haven't you see people with sabha ? Most of time you don't remember how much dhikr you exactly did.

Plus, how do we know how much actions we need to be among the best muslims ?
Plus we can do bad things without knowing, for exemple talking bad about people. When exactly we are starting to speak ill ? Sometimes you think you are just talking about people you don't like or have problem with but it can end as bad mouthing.

It's great that you want to help muslims and give advices but even in the time of the Prophet people didn't count. So we will keep it like that and let Allah count for us as He said he did.[SIZE=5][SIZE=2]
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Old 09-02-2015, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Yes, but if a good action = 10 until 700 how i can know how much good actions i have at the end ?
If i go to the mosque, should i be concentrated to count each step i do (as there's a reward for each steps) etc ...
Should i count the number of smile i give to people ?
How can we know for sure our fast is accepted or how much of the reward we'll have if we were angry that day, loose patience or whatever ?
And do really think we only have that to do ?

Haven't you see people with sabha ? Most of time you don't remember how much dhikr you exactly did.

Plus, how do we know how much actions we need to be among the best muslims ?
Plus we can do bad things without knowing, for exemple talking bad about people. When exactly we are starting to speak ill ? Sometimes you think you are just talking about people you don't like or have problem with but it can end as bad mouthing.

It's great that you want to help muslims and give advices but even in the time of the Prophet people didn't count. So we will keep it like that and let Allah count for us as He said he did.
I am not sure what is the "700" about.
What I suggested was 1=Low, 5-Average 10=Very Good.

Btw, have you ever done any personality test via checklist before?
Free Personality Test | 16Personalities

The first approach to such testing and rating is based on a rough draft then we get into the more precise details later.

For example in the link above, the following question is asked;
You find it easy to introduce yourself to other people.
We can have the following rating 1=Low, 5-Average 10=Very Good.
What you need to do is to do a rough judgment to the question and come up with an estimate rating.
At this stage there is no need to decide whether you smile or do whatever details.

What you do with the Quran is as follows;
1. List out all the 6,236 verses in a column.
2. For each verse related to doctrine rate your belief level to that particular level.
3. For each verse that require action rate your normal level of practice.
4. For other rate you attitude to whatever is required.

For example
List out the 6,236 column
Verse No. Score
1. 1:1........10
2. 1:2........10
3. 1:3........10
4. 1:4........10
5. 1:5........10
6. 1:6........10
7. 1:7........10

8. 2:1........10
...
...
6236 114:6.

In the above case the first 8 verses the score is 80, i.e. 8x10.
You continue to give a score for each of the 6236 verses.

Once you have done the above, then compute the compare the total against 62,236 to get a %.
This first draft will give you 'an idea' where you stand as a 'Muslim'.

Note: There is no measurements in terms of 'counting of steps' and 'smiling' in the Quran. So you need to stick the Quran, i.e. the supposedly word of God and no where else.

If you want more details then you can include sub-ratings as to count the number of days/times you pray, the amount you spend for zakat, the degree of 'hatred' you have for the infidels-kuffar, etc.
The Quran stipulated Muslims are not to be 'friendly' [auliyaa] as allies, protector, etc. Thus if you have gone into partnership with non-Muslims or are friendly with them your score would have to be reduced for verses like; [mine]
3:28. Let not the believers [Muslims] take disbelievers [infidels] for their friends [awliyaa] in preference to believers [Muslims]. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye [Muslims] but guard yourselves against them [infidels], taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [casual friends in this case not awliyaa] others [infidels] than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they [infidels] love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations if ye will understand.

Therefore a Muslim can assess his own rating as to how good one is performing as a Muslim before s/he meet Allah on judgment day.
One can start with a crude checklist and proceed to increase the precision with more detailed checklists.
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Old 09-03-2015, 05:43 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,449 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am not sure what is the "700" about.

Every action a son of Adam does shall be multiplied—a good action by ten times its value, up to 700 times. Allah says: With the exception of fasting, which belongs to Me, and I reward it accordingly. For, one abandons his desire and food for My sake.

15 Hadiths on Ramadan - Hadith Collections - Shari`ah - OnIslam.net

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What you do with the Quran is as follows;
1. List out all the 6,236 verses in a column.
2. For each verse related to doctrine rate your belief level to that particular level.
3. For each verse that require action rate your normal level of practice.
4. For other rate you attitude to whatever is required.


Once you have done the above, then compute the compare the total against 62,236 to get a %.
This first draft will give you 'an idea' where you stand as a 'Muslim'.
And then, what will i do with that ?
There's different degree in Paradise, i don't know how much "points" in need to be in the different levels.
I don't even know if i'll go to Paradise. I'm not God to decide before He decides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note: There is no measurements in terms of 'counting of steps' and 'smiling' in the Quran. So you need to stick the Quran, i.e. the supposedly word of God and no where else.

You can read this article for exemple concerning the hassanats : Hadith 37: How deeds are recorded |
Of course, this is the sunni point of view.
Note : Don't ask me to only follow the Quran because i do follow both, the tradition and the Holy Book.
I have no intention of counting anything anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you want more details then you can include sub-ratings as to count the number of days/times you pray, the amount you spend for zakat, the degree of 'hatred' you have for the infidels-kuffar, etc.
The Quran stipulated Muslims are not to be 'friendly' [auliyaa] as allies, protector, etc. Thus if you have gone into partnership with non-Muslims or are friendly with them your score would have to be reduced for verses like; [mine]
I don't have hatred for people who don't believe in God, actually i don't care.
And there's no reward for that.
As long people don't hurt me or my people i have no problem with it.
Haven't you even read the verse that i gave you in an other thread ? :

31.15 But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them but accompany them in [this] world with appropriate kindness and follow the way of those who turn back to Me [in repentance].

It doesn't say to hate them.

"awliya" = ally
sahab,sadiq,/ khalil = friend/close friend

So not take awlya (allies) for allies doesn't make sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore a Muslim can assess his own rating as to how good one is performing as a Muslim before s/he meet Allah on judgment day.
One can start with a crude checklist and proceed to increase the precision with more detailed checklists.
I think we get the message.
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Old 09-03-2015, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
How can you say, 'We can't do that by ourselves.'
If I can list 100 favorable things for you to do now surely you know what you are supposed to do and do you best to do them all.

The Quran is clearly within your sight. The Quran's 6,236 verses are easy to understand.
Note the 6,236 verses comprise those elements that need to be believed, those that need to be acted upon and others.
Why guess, all you need to do is to list out the 6,236 verses and marked them out.
Of course not every one will have perfect marks but at least one is aware of the 100% [if not almost] require to be a Muslim and where one fall short and thus take steps to improve on it.

Note verse 35:32 which is a Meccan verse and thus need to be supplemented with the various verses that exhort Muslims to compete with one another to be the best Muslim on can be. Here are the following verse which are of relevance to avoid a charge of contradiction in the Quran.
3:133. And vie one with another for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Paradise as wide as are the heavens and the earth, prepared for those who ward off (evil);

56:10. And the foremost in the race, the foremost in the race:

5:48 ............ So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye [people] will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
The above are merely a sample, there are many other similar verses that exhort Muslims to compete to be the better Muslim.
The only way to vie and compete in the race or journey is to take the 6,236 verses [100%] and find out what is needed to be done.
The Quran is supposed to be from God so a Muslim has to believe in God's words rather than the interpretations and expositions [Hadiths etc.] which are merely for secondary guidance only.

So it is NOT impossible to know what it take to be the better or best Muslims one can be. The answer is only in God's word, i.e. the Quran. So one must start with the 6,236 verses [100%] in the Quran and used that as a checklist to measure one achievement as a Muslim.

Note on the above checklist basis, my hypothesis is the fundamentalist is a much better Muslim than the 'moderate' Muslim.
The consolations is the moderate Muslims is a better universal human being [Human Checklist] than the fundamentalist Muslim.
I doubt if you are aware that we are not to know or attempt to forsee who will go to heaven or to anticipate rewards.

Your scale is asking us to do something you will find is very distasteful to many of us. We are not to consider any Muslim, including our self, to be "more" Muslim than anyone else. all Muslims are equal. The Most knowing is no more Muslim than the least knowing. We do not have the ability to nor right to Judge anyone, not even our self.


You will also find that very few of us consider the ayyats in the Qur'an to be commands. Even less that would think a single Ayah is a "Verse' in the concept of Verses in English literature. The Qur'an is to be listened to as a recitation, the written Qur'an is only a convenience for those of us that are not Hafiz.

A better explanation of what many of us believe the Ayat are:

Quote:
In Language and in Faith

Muslims believe that each ayah is a sign from Allah. Ayah, in the Arabic language and among Arab speakers of all faiths, has several common meanings: sign, miracle, evidence and verse. These various definitions of ayah are also relevant in the religion of Islam. The Qur'an is divided into 114 chapters of unequal size called surahs. Each surah is composed of individual verses, each called an ayah, or ayat in plural form. When citing text from the Qur'an, one refers to chapter and verse, or surah and ayah (verse) or ayat (verses) by number.
What Does Ayah Mean in Islam? | People - Opposing Views

Each Ayah is not simply a verse, it is a Sign, Miracle and Evidence. They are not commands they are Evidence of Allaah(swt)

Some ayyat are actually a full chapter. Best example being ayah 282 in Surat al-Baqerah

Quote:
282. O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so let him write. Let him (the debtor) who incurs the liability dictate, and he must fear Allah, his Lord, and diminish not anything of what he owes. But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable himself to dictate, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence). You should not become weary to write it (your contract), whether it be small or big, for its fixed term, that is more just with Allah; more solid as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves, save when it is a present trade which you carry out on the spot among yourselves, then there is no sin on you if you do not write it down. But take witnesses whenever you make a commercial contract. Let neither scribe nor witness suffer any harm, but if you do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So be afraid of Allah; and Allah teaches you. And Allah is the All-Knower of each and everything.
I think you will find that your methodology of evaluating "Begree of Muslim" is distasteful and meaningless to most Muslims.
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Old 09-03-2015, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Every action a son of Adam does shall be multiplied—a good action by ten times its value, up to 700 times. Allah says: With the exception of fasting, which belongs to Me, and I reward it accordingly. For, one abandons his desire and food for My sake.

15 Hadiths on Ramadan - Hadith Collections - Shari`ah - OnIslam.net

You can read this article for exemple concerning the hassanats : Hadith 37: How deeds are recorded |
Of course, this is the sunni point of view.
Note : Don't ask me to only follow the Quran because i do follow both, the tradition and the Holy Book.
I have no intention of counting anything anyway.
1. The Quran as the only nearest direct words from God is the CORE of Islam.
2. A Muslim is a follower/believer of Islam
3. Therefore a Muslim must adopt the Quran at 100%.

If a Muslim do not accept the Quran at 100% then s/he is questioning God's credibility, and that would be a sin.

I am not saying you should not adopt the Hadiths as a guideline and for assistance, but the Quran must be the primary CORE driver of how one should be a Muslim.

In the case of the "700" times from the Hadiths, it does not align with the Quran. Why not 800, 1,000 or 10,000?
Therefore whatever you agree with in the Hadiths, it must be solidly related to the Quran. Otherwise it is a human opinion and not Allah's words.


Here is one good example;
3:151. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those [infidels] who disbelieve because they [infidels] ascribe unto Allah partners [gods, idols and deities], for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their [infidels] habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong doers.
To score 10 points, a Muslim must cast terror into the hearts of the infidels who disbelieved because they ascribe partners unto Allah.

There would be many Hadiths that promote the casting of terrors unto infidels. So those Hadiths are in alignment with the Quran.

Note the The Reliance of the Traveller, or Umdat al-Salik, composed in the 14th Century by Shihabuddin Abu al-‘Abbas Ahmad ibn an-Naqib al-Misri (1302–1367). It is a classical manual of Shafi’i fiqh.
In the above guide, it is recommended Muslims should at least create and cast terror unto non-Muslims 2 times a year. This is also in line with the Quran 3:151 but it is too specific.

The "700" times is definitely not in line with the Quran.
The full hijab as recommended in many hadiths is also not in line with the Quran.
The recommendation of stoning to death [supposed from Ayesha missing verses] for various sins is also not in the Quran.


Quote:
And then, what will i do with that ?
There's different degree in Paradise, i don't know how much "points" in need to be in the different levels.
I don't even know if i'll go to Paradise. I'm not God to decide before He decides.
If you apply for your most wanted job and was asked to complete a checklist that assess your suitability and you were told you scored only 40% and thus was rejected, what do you do with that?
The most effective solution is to find out which are the areas you failed to meet expectation, then set out to improve on it with the hope you will be successful on your next attempt.

If you do the Quran checklist test and scored 40%, then you are not a good Muslim [on first draft].
Note there is room for 'freewill' on your part to choose and perform your best.
Being a Muslim is 'jouneying' on the straight path and if you are only 40% then you have the 'freewill' to act and IMPROVE upon the straight path and the primary guide is the Quran.
Of course it is quite impossible to score 100% but one can strive with more efforts to improve one's score to 80%++. You may not know how many levels are there in Paradise, but 80% is definitely better than 40%.

Quote:
I don't even know if i'll go to Paradise. I'm not God to decide before He
decides.
This is why the safest guide is the Quran because it is definitely God's words in accordance to Islam.
If you have comply and not sin [contravene] what is listed in the Quran, you will be very safe in going Paradise as promised in the Quran.



Quote:
I don't have hatred for people who don't believe in God, actually i don't care.
And there's no reward for that.
As long people don't hurt me or my people i have no problem with it.
Haven't you even read the verse that i gave you in an other thread ? :

31.15 But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them but accompany them in [this] world with appropriate kindness and follow the way of those who turn back to Me [in repentance].

It doesn't say to hate them.

"awliya" = ally
sahab,sadiq,/ khalil = friend/close friend.
So not take awlya (allies) for allies doesn't make sense.
I have reservation with the word 'hate' which is for thing that cannot be changed, e.g. race, gender, and the likes.
The more appropriate term is 'contempt' animosity, abomination, and the likes which is represented by more that 55% of the verses in the Quran in various degrees [1-low to 100-high]. Note 'various degrees'

31:15 refer specifically to Parents, not friends nor kins. Chapter 31 is a Meccan verses and to be kind to parents is a moral default and there is no significant necessity even to mention it.
However in the Medinian abrogating verses, there is no mentioned of 'kindness' to Parents,
9:23. O ye who believe! [Muslims] Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends [auliyaa] if they take pleasure in disbelief [as infidels] rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong doers.
Because of such verses and that 55% of the weightage within the Quran is contempt, animosity, abomination, etc. against disbelievers-infidels-kuffar, SOME [not all, not you] evil prone will not hesitate to kill their parents, kins, brethren in the cause of Allah.
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Old 09-03-2015, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1. The Quran as the only nearest direct words from God is the CORE of Islam.
2. A Muslim is a follower/believer of Islam
3. Therefore a Muslim must adopt the Quran at 100%.

If a Muslim do not accept the Quran at 100% then s/he is questioning God's credibility, and that would be a sin.

I am not saying you should not adopt the Hadiths as a guideline and for assistance, but the Quran must be the primary CORE driver of how one should be a Muslim.

In the case of the "700" times from the Hadiths, it does not align with the Quran. Why not 800, 1,000 or 10,000?
Therefore whatever you agree with in the Hadiths, it must be solidly related to the Quran. Otherwise it is a human opinion and not Allah's words.


Here is one good example;
3:151. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those [infidels] who disbelieve because they [infidels] ascribe unto Allah partners [gods, idols and deities], for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their [infidels] habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong doers.
To score 10 points, a Muslim must cast terror into the hearts of the infidels who disbelieved because they ascribe partners unto Allah.

There would be many Hadiths that promote the casting of terrors unto infidels. So those Hadiths are in alignment with the Quran.

Note the The Reliance of the Traveller, or Umdat al-Salik, composed in the 14th Century by Shihabuddin Abu al-‘Abbas Ahmad ibn an-Naqib al-Misri (1302–1367). It is a classical manual of Shafi’i fiqh.
In the above guide, it is recommended Muslims should at least create and cast terror unto non-Muslims 2 times a year. This is also in line with the Quran 3:151 but it is too specific.

The "700" times is definitely not in line with the Quran.
The full hijab as recommended in many hadiths is also not in line with the Quran.
The recommendation of stoning to death [supposed from Ayesha missing verses] for various sins is also not in the Quran.



If you apply for your most wanted job and was asked to complete a checklist that assess your suitability and you were told you scored only 40% and thus was rejected, what do you do with that?
The most effective solution is to find out which are the areas you failed to meet expectation, then set out to improve on it with the hope you will be successful on your next attempt.

If you do the Quran checklist test and scored 40%, then you are not a good Muslim [on first draft].
Note there is room for 'freewill' on your part to choose and perform your best.
Being a Muslim is 'jouneying' on the straight path and if you are only 40% then you have the 'freewill' to act and IMPROVE upon the straight path and the primary guide is the Quran.
Of course it is quite impossible to score 100% but one can strive with more efforts to improve one's score to 80%++. You may not know how many levels are there in Paradise, but 80% is definitely better than 40%.

This is why the safest guide is the Quran because it is definitely God's words in accordance to Islam.
If you have comply and not sin [contravene] what is listed in the Quran, you will be very safe in going Paradise as promised in the Quran.



I have reservation with the word 'hate' which is for thing that cannot be changed, e.g. race, gender, and the likes.
The more appropriate term is 'contempt' animosity, abomination, and the likes which is represented by more that 55% of the verses in the Quran in various degrees [1-low to 100-high]. Note 'various degrees'

31:15 refer specifically to Parents, not friends nor kins. Chapter 31 is a Meccan verses and to be kind to parents is a moral default and there is no significant necessity even to mention it.
However in the Medinian abrogating verses, there is no mentioned of 'kindness' to Parents,
9:23. O ye who believe! [Muslims] Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends [auliyaa] if they take pleasure in disbelief [as infidels] rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong doers.
Because of such verses and that 55% of the weightage within the Quran is contempt, animosity, abomination, etc. against disbelievers-infidels-kuffar, SOME [not all, not you] evil prone will not hesitate to kill their parents, kins, brethren in the cause of Allah.
Just addressing this:

Quote:
Here is one good example;
3:151. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those [infidels] who disbelieve because they [infidels] ascribe unto Allah partners [gods, idols and deities], for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their [infidels] habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong doers.
To score 10 points, a Muslim must cast terror into the hearts of the infidels who disbelieved because they ascribe partners unto Allah.
Who are the We in the ayyat?

Quote:
So Allah gave them the reward of the world and the good reward of the Hereafter. Allah loveth those whose deeds are good. - 3:148 (Picktall)

O ye who believe! If ye obey those who disbelieve, they will make you turn back on your heels, and ye turn back as losers. - 3:149 (Picktall)

But Allah is your Protector, and He is the best of helpers. - 3:150 (Picktall)

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong doers. - 3:151 (Picktall)

Allah verily made good His promise unto you when ye routed them by His leave, until (the moment) when your courage failed you, and ye disagreed about the order and ye disobeyed, after He had shown you that for which ye long. Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them, that He might try you. Yet now He hath forgiven you. Allah is a Lord of Kindness to believers. - 3:152 (Picktall)
The WE is Allaah(swt) and this is a telling of an event that happened, not a command to do something.It is a reminder that Allaah(swt) protected us in the past.
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Old 09-03-2015, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I doubt if you are aware that we are not to know or attempt to forsee who will go to heaven or to anticipate rewards.

Your scale is asking us to do something you will find is very distasteful to many of us. We are not to consider any Muslim, including our self, to be "more" Muslim than anyone else. all Muslims are equal. The Most knowing is no more Muslim than the least knowing. We do not have the ability to nor right to Judge anyone, not even our self.


You will also find that very few of us consider the ayyats in the Qur'an to be commands. Even less that would think a single Ayah is a "Verse' in the concept of Verses in English literature. The Qur'an is to be listened to as a recitation, the written Qur'an is only a convenience for those of us that are not Hafiz.

A better explanation of what many of us believe the Ayat are:

What Does Ayah Mean in Islam? | People - Opposing Views

Each Ayah is not simply a verse, it is a Sign, Miracle and Evidence. They are not commands they are Evidence of Allaah(swt)

Some ayyat are actually a full chapter. Best example being ayah 282 in Surat al-Baqerah

I think you will find that your methodology of evaluating "Degree of Muslim" is distasteful and meaningless to most Muslims.
What I proposed is the most universal method of grading the performance of anything, be it humans or machine.

If one is an employee, the ultimate grading of what a good employee of any business organization is to rate the person on the main policy statement of the company plus its sub-detailed listings.
To rate the best 100% Nazi we grade the person on a checklist derived from the principles in the Mein Kampf.
It is the same for grading a communist [Russian, Chinese, North Korean] where we rely on a checklist derived from their respective manifesto.
For example, if a North Korean don't have contempt for Americans, they would be a low grade North Korean!
It is the same with psychology and psychiatry where a mental illness is determine via a checklist of critical criteria.
The principle is always to rely on the main groundings to determine the qualification.

Thus if you say my methodology [based on universal standard] of evaluating "Degree of Muslim" is distasteful and meaningless, you are insulting the religion.

Because of your age it is most likely you forgot what you have read of the Quran.
There are many verses in the Quran where Muslims are exhorted to compete with one another;
56:10. And the foremost in the race, the foremost in the race:

18:7. Lo! We have placed all that is in the earth as an ornament thereof that we may try them: which of them is best in conduct.

11:7. And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was upon the water that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct.

2:148. And each one [Muslim] hath a goal toward which he turneth; so vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever ye [Muslim] may be, Allah will bring you all together. [on J-DAY] Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

Note there are many more verses of the likes exhorting Muslim to vie and compete with each other. Suggest you refresh by reading the 6,236 verses Quran with a fine-toothed comb at least once. Phew I have done that many times already by now and still continuing to do so.

You don't have the ability to judge others and yes it is not wise to compare yourself with others as well. However you can judge yourself by doing your own person grading to facilitate your own improvements. That is so easy for a start and one should progress to a more refine checklists with sub-criteria.

So what if 2:282 is a large verse which could be a chapter by itself.
That is no big deal.
One can always break it down to sub-criteria as many as necessary rate it and get an average for that verse.
I understand some of the larger verses has many and different elements which is not efficient for one single score. In this case, we can break it down into relevant sub-criteria and make the necessary adjustments to the computation.

There is a whole load on the Methodology of dealing with rating by Checklists and there are many solutions available to deal with the various nuances and intricate problems that arises. These more sophisticate adjustments will facilitate us to reduce the margin of errors and to get closer to the truths.

Commands?? I have asserted the Quran is not a book of commands but there are lots of command in the Quran which a Muslims not follow strictly without exception.
Generally it is implied a Muslim is commanded by God to obey the Quran as a reminder and to act upon it, e.g. the 5 pillars, etc.

You above views seem to contradict what the Quran is expected from the Muslim?
Suggest you review my points and counter them objectively with verses from the Quran and not to rely on your personal opinions [that is sinful].
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Old 09-03-2015, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just addressing this:

Who are the We in the ayyat?

The WE is Allaah(swt) and this is a telling of an event that happened, not a command to do something.It is a reminder that Allaah(swt) protected us in the past.
"We" generally refer to 'Allah'.
Note I raised an OP on this and why such use of "We" is problematic.
Why Quran use "We" to Represent Allah if No Partners?

In reality and real life then "We" is actually Muhammad and gang. Muhammad is the exemplar for all Muslims. But 20% or even if 1% idolize Muhammad as a hero and follow exactly what Muhammad is doing, that is 300 million or 15 million quantum of real threat.

Note the war scenario is used to represent a principle for Muslims to adopt, i.e.
The infidels [kuffar] must experience the horror of terror upon them from "We" i.e. supposedly Allah. The infidels deserved terror upon them for merely not believing in Islam.

However, note the reality is, it is not Allah [who deliver the principle] who is actually casting error, it is the Muslims in that scenario that is casting and executing the strategies [in the cause of Allah] the actual terrors unto non-Muslims.

This Principle is expounded and details are added in the Hadiths and other guides, e.g. The Reliance of the Traveller.

Therefore in real life, it has to be the Muslims [driven in spirit by Allah] to cast terrors upon the non-Muslims.

The reality is many [not all] Muslims are doing just that in following that Principle. [26,821] it was 26,811 only yesterday?






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Old 09-03-2015, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What I proposed is the most universal method of grading the performance of anything, be it humans or machine.

If one is an employee, the ultimate grading of what a good employee of any business organization is to rate the person on the main policy statement of the company plus its sub-detailed listings.
To rate the best 100% Nazi we grade the person on a checklist derived from the principles in the Mein Kampf.
It is the same for grading a communist [Russian, Chinese, North Korean] where we rely on a checklist derived from their respective manifesto.
For example, if a North Korean don't have contempt for Americans, they would be a low grade North Korean!
It is the same with psychology and psychiatry where a mental illness is determine via a checklist of critical criteria.
The principle is always to rely on the main groundings to determine the qualification.

Thus if you say my methodology [based on universal standard] of evaluating "Degree of Muslim" is distasteful and meaningless, you are insulting the religion.

Because of your age it is most likely you forgot what you have read of the Quran.
There are many verses in the Quran where Muslims are exhorted to compete with one another;
56:10. And the foremost in the race, the foremost in the race:

18:7. Lo! We have placed all that is in the earth as an ornament thereof that we may try them: which of them is best in conduct.

11:7. And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was upon the water that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct.

2:148. And each one [Muslim] hath a goal toward which he turneth; so vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever ye [Muslim] may be, Allah will bring you all together. [on J-DAY] Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

Note there are many more verses of the likes exhorting Muslim to vie and compete with each other. Suggest you refresh by reading the 6,236 verses Quran with a fine-toothed comb at least once. Phew I have done that many times already by now and still continuing to do so.

You don't have the ability to judge others and yes it is not wise to compare yourself with others as well. However you can judge yourself by doing your own person grading to facilitate your own improvements. That is so easy for a start and one should progress to a more refine checklists with sub-criteria.

So what if 2:282 is a large verse which could be a chapter by itself.
That is no big deal.
One can always break it down to sub-criteria as many as necessary rate it and get an average for that verse.
I understand some of the larger verses has many and different elements which is not efficient for one single score. In this case, we can break it down into relevant sub-criteria and make the necessary adjustments to the computation.

There is a whole load on the Methodology of dealing with rating by Checklists and there are many solutions available to deal with the various nuances and intricate problems that arises. These more sophisticate adjustments will facilitate us to reduce the margin of errors and to get closer to the truths.

Commands?? I have asserted the Quran is not a book of commands but there are lots of command in the Quran which a Muslims not follow strictly without exception.
Generally it is implied a Muslim is commanded by God to obey the Quran as a reminder and to act upon it, e.g. the 5 pillars, etc.

You above views seem to contradict what the Quran is expected from the Muslim?
Suggest you review my points and counter them objectively with verses from the Quran and not to rely on your personal opinions [that is sinful].
We are not told how to do the 5 pillars in the Qur'an.



Your Methodology would have merit, IF Muslims considered every ayyat in the Qur'an as a command.

Very few if any are commands. the vast majority are part of a retelling of past events.

Similar to using an American history book as a guide on how to be a good American and grading us on how well we obey each sentence.

I guess that to gain a 10 on the line "I shall Return" in the chapter on Gen MacArthur means we have to go to the Philippines to be a good American.
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We are not told how to do the 5 pillars in the Qur'an.

Your Methodology would have merit, IF Muslims considered every ayyat in the Qur'an as a command.

Very few if any are commands. the vast majority are part of a retelling of past events.

Similar to using an American history book as a guide on how to be a good American and grading us on how well we obey each sentence.

I guess that to gain a 10 on the line "I shall Return" in the chapter on Gen MacArthur means we have to go to the Philippines to be a good American.
Not every verse in the Quran is a command. Many of the verses are merely Doctrinal Principles, i.e. God is One. If you agree to this, then you score 10. Example,
59:23. He is Allah, than whom there is no other God, the Sovereign Lord the Holy One, Peace, the Keeper of Faith, the Guardian, the Majestic, the Compeller, the Superb. Glorified be Allah from all that [partners, gods] they [infidels] ascribe as partner (unto Him)
If you agree to the above fully, then you score 10/10.
There are many similar verses as principles and they are not commands in the normal sense.
However is another sense, it is a command by Allah to Muslims to believe, i.e. it is a command to believe the whole verse. It is also an indirect command not to act by ascribing partners, gods, rivals, idols, deities to Allah.


This 60:9 is obviously a command from Allah;
60:9. Allah forbiddeth you [Muslims] - only those [infidels] who warred against you - on account of religion [alddeeni] and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends [tawallawhum] of them. Whosoever [Muslim] maketh friends of them (All) [infidels] such are wrong doers.

Note 'friend' in the above is not 'auliyaa' in this case.
If you agree with the above in principle, then you score 10/10.
If on has not acted as such in a real situation, then one score should be less than 10.


The concept of "5 pillar" is not in the Quran. For the checklist one will tick off the individual items [of so labeled '5 pillars'] in the Quran in whichever verse they appear.

Come on .. that is silly. Note "I shall Return" [any specific assertions and acts by individual and groups] is not from the US Constitution nor enacted in the legal system [Federal] of the US. Besides what is in the US Constitution is not immutable.

Last edited by Continuum; 09-03-2015 at 10:33 PM..
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