U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-03-2015, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Not every verse in the Quran is a command. Many of the verses are merely Doctrinal Principles, i.e. God is One. If you agree to this, then you score 10.

The concept of "5 pillar" is not in the Quran. For the checklist one will tick off the individual items [of so labeled '5 pillars'] in the Quran in whichever verse they appear.

Come on .. that is silly. Note "I shall Return" [any specific assertions and acts by individual and groups] is not from the US Constitution nor enacted in the legal system [Federal] of the US. Besides what is in the US Constitution is not immutable.


While the exact Arabic words in the Qur'an are not immutable, our understandings and interpretations of them are.

What is not questioned is that the words are exactly what Muhammad(saws) attests were revealed to Him.

We beleive they came from Allaah(swt) non-Muslims give almost as many alternative sources as there are the number of non-Muslims..
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-03-2015, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While the exact Arabic words in the Qur'an are not immutable, our understandings and interpretations of them are.

What is not questioned is that the words are exactly what Muhammad(saws) attests were revealed to Him.

We beleive they came from Allaah(swt) non-Muslims give almost as many alternative sources as there are the number of non-Muslims..
In principle, within the expectations of Islam as a religion from Allah, and since God is omnipotent, omniscient, Perfect, Supreme of the Supreme, the Quran should be stated as what Muhammad recited as directed by God via Gabriel.
Muhammad was merely the loudspeaker of God.
In this sense the original words directly from God has to be immutable.
But transcriptions and translations are inevitable and therefore corruption is also inevitable.

Since there is no way of reproducing the actual recitations of the Quran from the mouths of Muhammad, Muslims MUST to acknowledge this limitation that the Quran they have today cannot be 100% the same as the Quran that God had on hand when he relayed that to Muhammad.

Even if God exists and Muhammad existed, the best veracity of the Quran we have today can only be (100-x)% of the actual Quran in God's hand.

All translators will try to get as close as to what was supposed to be the original. However being human being and translated by human beings, each translation will inevitably be corrupted by the personal interest of the translator[s].
Whatever is translated as the Quran has to be taken as immutable by its followers otherwise one will be questioning the credibility of Allah.

Even if God exists, the only safeguard to ensure the Quran is as authentically from God is to rely on the hermeneutical approach to erect an external support to the Quran but one must always acknowledge the limitations that is it possible to be corrupted from the pristine original.


To think outside the box;
The fact is it is impossible for God to exists.
Therefore the Quran can only come from a person or a group of compilers.
To get to the truth of the matter, one can use the hermeneutical approach and critical philosophy together will the whole range of human knowledge to get closer to the truth of the matter.

I believe the Quran is most likely the work of a group of men.

Last edited by Continuum; 09-04-2015 at 12:41 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2015, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In principle, within the expectations of Islam as a religion from Allah, and since God is omnipotent, omniscient, Perfect, Supreme of the Supreme, the Quran should be stated as what Muhammad recited as directed by God via Gabriel.
Muhammad was merely the loudspeaker of God.
In this sense the original words directly from God has to be immutable.
But transcriptions and translations are inevitable and therefore corruption is also inevitable.

Since there is no way of reproducing the actual recitations of the Quran from the mouths of Muhammad, Muslims MUST to acknowledge this limitation that the Quran they have today cannot be 100% the same as the Quran that God had on hand when he relayed that to Muhammad.

Even if God exists and Muhammad existed, the best veracity of the Quran we have today can only be (100-x)% of the actual Quran in God's hand.

All translators will try to get as close as to what was supposed to be the original. However being human being and translated by human beings, each translation will inevitably be corrupted by the personal interest of the translator[s].
Whatever is translated as the Quran has to be taken as immutable by its followers otherwise one will be questioning the credibility of Allah.

Even if God exists, the only safeguard to ensure the Quran is as authentically from God is to rely on the hermeneutical approach to erect an external support to the Quran but one must always acknowledge the limitations that is it possible to be corrupted from the pristine original.


To think outside the box;
The fact is it is impossible for God to exists.
Therefore the Quran can only come from a person or a group of compilers.
To get to the truth of the matter, one can use the hermeneutical approach and critical philosophy together will the whole range of human knowledge to get closer to the truth of the matter.

I believe the Quran is most likely the work of a group of men.
Here what needs to be understood is the differences between interpretation and translation. As many Arabic words have no equivalent in the non-Semitic languages, nearly all translations are interpretations.

Interpretations are opinions and as such, subject to disagreement and/or questioning.

While I appreciate your belief the Qur'an was written by a group, the timeline of the revelations make that quite difficult.

Many of the longer Surat were revealed in seperate discources, sometimes lengthy time between them. For example al-Baqerah consists of 10 seperate discourses revealed over at least a 3 year period, in a multitude of locations. Yet the rhythm retains the same flow though out. Even though parts were from Mecca and parts from Medinah. The last line of it was revealed first in Mecca probably 10 years before the Majority of it was revealed. Lots of complexities involved to have been carried out by a group. It is hard enough to get 2 Arabs to agree on anything. Also there is no evidence of the Qur'anic dialect having ever been used besides the Qur'an. No one has ever been able to compose one unique line using the Qur'anic Arabic.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2015, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Note Reality:
1. It is 100% impossible for God to exists.
2. Believing in an impossible God is purely emotional, therefore desperately bias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Here what needs to be understood is the differences between interpretation and translation. As many Arabic words have no equivalent in the non-Semitic languages, nearly all translations are interpretations.
It is obvious there is a difference between what is intended to be a translation and a tafsir.

Regardless of the language, progressive translations are definitely possible as far as the main principles are concern. This is because all humans have the same fundamental DNA.
From the basic DNA, we humans has a Generic Human Spiritual System [GHSS].
Therefore when humans translate between languages within the fundamental principles of the GHSS, there is a high percentage of accuracy but with possibility of not very significant errors from the fringes and the forms.

For example, the Principle of Monotheism within the Abrahamic religion, i.e. 'God is One and only one God' cannot be wrongly translated. The only issue is only the form.

All the Abrahamic religions are monotheistic and Muhammad blamed the others for changing the texts and ascribing partners and sons to God. What is so difficult in getting this point across via translation.

There is a possibility of mistranslating if 'auliyaa' it taken a 'friend' without further qualifications. But this can be easily corrected with the proper qualifications and explanations.

Where in the Quran is it possible for any significant translation error that effect the basic principles of the GHSS to occur. I dare say, none and no where.
I need an answer for this.

In addition, translations are continually improved thus one can get closer and closer to the original with continual corrections.

Quote:
Interpretations are opinions and as such, subject to disagreement and/or
questioning.
As I said translations are not interpretations [Hadiths, tafsir or other expositions]

Quote:
While I appreciate your belief the Qur'an was written by a group, the timeline of the revelations make that quite difficult.

Many of the longer Surat were revealed in seperate discources, sometimes lengthy time between them. For example al-Baqerah consists of 10 seperate discourses revealed over at least a 3 year period, in a multitude of locations. Yet the rhythm retains the same flow though out. Even though parts were from Mecca and parts from Medinah. The last line of it was revealed first in Mecca probably 10 years before the Majority of it was revealed. Lots of complexities involved to have been carried out by a group. It is hard enough to get 2 Arabs to agree on anything. Also there is no evidence of the Qur'anic dialect having ever been used besides the Qur'an. No one has ever been able to compose one unique line using the Qur'anic Arabic.
A lot of finesse and precision can be achieved with a group.

For example, Scientific Papers are not solely from one person or source. It is prepared by one person but BACKED by the Framework and Systems within the scientific community. The paper itself rested on giant shoulders of past great discoverers. Finally there is the peer review to provide a basis for improvements and refinements from supervisors and peers. Such a framework and system thus is available to deal with the relevant complexities.

It is the same with improvements and refinements in other disciplines. Note Laws [in general] for example are passed through various processes before being enacted as 'Laws.'

Therefore the preparation of the Quran was similarly processed by a group with probably a leader together with peers within the Abrahamic ethos and background. This is where it get SOME degrees of a semblance of what is a holy texts.

It is only based on point 1&2 above that believers think [blinded] the Quran is PERFECTO! Objectively & relative to other holy texts, the Quran is a cheap low quality plagiarized holy text. Fact is there is no way "you' [as a Muslim] can read it objectively.

From my extensive reading of the Quran in the context of humanity, Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 is an intermediate summary as a starting point of the Medinian phase and the turning point of Muhammad's leaning of the eschatological basis to a more aggressive and martial approach.

If the internet, video recording and psychiatry were available from 600 AD onward it will record the truth, i.e. there is not God appointed messenger in Mecca then.

Nevertheless with proper forensic analysis of human nature, we can readily infer and confirm there was no God appointed messenger in Mecca in circa 610 AD.

Last edited by Continuum; 09-04-2015 at 08:12 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2015, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note Reality:
1. It is 100% impossible for God to exists.
2. Believing in an impossible God is purely emotional, therefore desperately bias.

It is obvious there is a difference between what is intended to be a translation and a tafsir.

Regardless of the language, progressive translations are definitely possible as far as the main principles are concern. This is because all humans have the same fundamental DNA.
From the basic DNA, we humans has a Generic Human Spiritual System [GHSS].
Therefore when humans translate between languages within the fundamental principles of the GHSS, there is a high percentage of accuracy but with possibility of not very significant errors from the fringes and the forms.

For example, the Principle of Monotheism within the Abrahamic religion, i.e. 'God is One and only one God' cannot be wrongly translated. The only issue is only the form.

All the Abrahamic religions are monotheistic and Muhammad blamed the others for changing the texts and ascribing partners and sons to God. What is so difficult in getting this point across via translation.

There is a possibility of mistranslating if 'auliyaa' it taken a 'friend' without further qualifications. But this can be easily corrected with the proper qualifications and explanations.

Where in the Quran is it possible for any significant translation error that effect the basic principles of the GHSS to occur. I dare say, none and no where.
I need an answer for this.

In addition, translations are continually improved thus one can get closer and closer to the original with continual corrections.

As I said translations are not interpretations [Hadiths, tafsir or other expositions]

A lot of finesse and precision can be achieved with a group.

For example, Scientific Papers are not solely from one person or source. It is prepared by one person but BACKED by the Framework and Systems within the scientific community. The paper itself rested on giant shoulders of past great discoverers. Finally there is the peer review to provide a basis for improvements and refinements from supervisors and peers. Such a framework and system thus is available to deal with the relevant complexities.

It is the same with improvements and refinements in other disciplines. Note Laws [in general] for example are passed through various processes before being enacted as 'Laws.'

Therefore the preparation of the Quran was similarly processed by a group with probably a leader together with peers within the Abrahamic ethos and background. This is where it get SOME degrees of a semblance of what is a holy texts.

It is only based on point 1&2 above that believers think [blinded] the Quran is PERFECTO! Objectively & relative to other holy texts, the Quran is a cheap low quality plagiarized holy text. Fact is there is no way "you' [as a Muslim] can read it objectively.

From my extensive reading of the Quran in the context of humanity, Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 is an intermediate summary as a starting point of the Medinian phase and the turning point of Muhammad's leaning of the eschatological basis to a more aggressive and martial approach.

If the internet, video recording and psychiatry were available from 600 AD onward it will record the truth, i.e. there is not God appointed messenger in Mecca then.

Nevertheless with proper forensic analysis of human nature, we can readily infer and confirm there was no God appointed messenger in Mecca in circa 610 AD.
Actually surah 1 al-Fatiha while it was one of the last Surat started,was the first complete surah revealed. While most of the other Surat were started before Surah Fatiah, none were completed until after al-Fatiha.

The last ayyat in Surah 2 was revealed in Mecca at least 10 years before the first part of the surah was revealed in Medina. all of the Meccan Surat were only begun in Mecca, they were completed in Medina. Many if not all of the Medina Surat were completed before the Meccan Surat. were.

Now to go back to

Quote:
Where in the Quran is it possible for any significant translation error that effect the basic principles of the GHSS to occur. I dare say, none and no where.
I need an answer for this.
Let us take ayyats that contain the word sab (sbr) It is mentioned in the Qur'an 102 times. There is no English word for it. It is a trait only human's can develop and no other creature has the ability to develop sabr. Some of the traits of having sabr is the person does not get upset in the face of adversity, the person has unlimited patience and never gives up hope, the person has achieved a level of happiness that is independent of the events in his life. It is considered to be 1/2 of
faith.

While most Arabic speakers will know it is a human trait. It is a trair that has no English meaning. Therefore it carries a multitude of differences in It's translation as one has to interpret based upon the interpreters opinion of the meaning of the Surah the word is used.

Here are a few places it occurs

39:10

Qul ya AAibadi allatheena amanoo ittaqoo rabbakum lillatheena ahsanoo fee hathihi alddunya hasanatun waardu Allahi wasiAAatun innama yuwaffa alssabiroona ajrahum bighayri hisabin

The word alssabiroona diretly tranlated is "The Sabiroona" a best word for word translation is "The people with Sabr" In the following translations
I will darken what the 3 translators are translating alssabiroona as

Say: [Thus speaks God:] [16] O you servants of Mine who have attained to faith! Be conscious of your Sustainer! Ultimate good awaits those who per*severe in doing good in this world. And [remember:] wide is Gods earth, [and,] verily, they who are patient in adversity will be given their reward in full, beyond all reckoning! - 39:10 (Asad)

Say: "O ye my servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is (the reward) for those who do good in this world. Spacious is Allah's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!" - 39:10 (Y. Ali)

Say: O My bondmen who believe! Observe your duty to your Lord. For those who do good in this world there is good, and Allah's earth is spacious. Verily the steadfast will be paid their wages without stint. - 39:10 (Picktall)

While the three are giving a partial characteristic of sabr, they are incomplete.

Another ayyat

3: 146

Same as I did above

Wakaayyin min nabiyyin qatala maAAahu ribbiyyoona katheerun fama wahanoo lima asabahum fee sabeeli Allahi wama daAAufoo wama istakanoo waAllahu yuhibbu alssabireena

And how many a prophet has had to fight [in God's cause], followed by many God-devoted men: and they did not become faint of heart for all that they had to suffer in God's cause, and neither did they weaken, nor did they abase themselves [before the enemy], since God loves those who are patient in adversity; - 3:146 (Asad)

How many of the prophets fought (in Allah's way), and with them (fought) Large bands of godly men? But they never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah's way, nor did they weaken (in will) nor give in. And Allah Loves those who are firm and steadfast. - 3:146 (Y. Ali)

And with how many a prophet have there been a number of devoted men who fought (beside him). They quailed not for aught that befell them in the way of Allah, nor did they weaken, nor were they brought low. Allah 1oveth the steadfast. - 3:146 (Picktall)

Again the 3 are getting part of the concept of Sabr, but still do not give the concept of Sar as a human trait that has reached it's potential.


another one, there are 99 more ayyats after this that use the word sabr.

2: 155
Walanabluwannakum bishayin mina alkhawfi waaljooAAi wanaqsin mina alamwali waalanfusi waalththamarati wabashshiri alssabireena

And most certainly shall We try you by means of danger, and hunger, and loss of worldly goods, of lives and of [labour's] fruits. But give glad tidings unto those who are patient in adversity - 2:155 (Asad)

Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere, - 2:155 (Y. Ali)

And surely We shall try you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and crops; but give glad tidings to the steadfast, - 2:155 (Picktall)

While those are all partially true, not one is giving the full concept of having sabr or a full image of what it means.

A person needs to have a lot of sabr to know what sabr is and much more to understand they can not explain what it is.

some English words that Sabr gets translated into

Patience
Submission
Resignation
Overcoming
accepting
defeating
steadfast
fulfillment

While those are some of the facets of sabr, they fall short of explaining what is meant by sabr or how it is a human trait equal to
peace
harmony
joy
blessing

No, I can not explain sabr in English anymore than I can explain the Arabic concept of noor in English. But having been exposed to a good bit of ArabicCulture I feel I have a workable grasp on what is meant to have sabr and know I need to pray for more and have enough sabr to not get upset because my prayers for sabr do not always seem to be answered.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2015, 12:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Actually surah 1 al-Fatiha while it was one of the last Surat started,was the first complete surah revealed. While most of the other Surat were started before Surah Fatiah, none were completed until after al-Fatiha.

The last ayyat in Surah 2 was revealed in Mecca at least 10 years before the first part of the surah was revealed in Medina. all of the Meccan Surat were only begun in Mecca, they were completed in Medina. Many if not all of the Medina Surat were completed before the Meccan Surat. were.
God is an impossibility and thus will NEVER be around to tell us what is the correct position.
You have your views and I have mine.
However if we keep grinding and interpret the above from history and the psychology of Muhammad in line with actual human experiences, I think my hypothesis is more plausible than the usual emotionally bias interpretations from most believers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Now to go back to
Let us take ayyats that contain the word sab (sbr) It is mentioned in the Qur'an 102 times. There is no English word for it. It is a trait only human's can develop and no other creature has the ability to develop sabr. Some of the traits of having sabr is the person does not get upset in the face of adversity, the person has unlimited patience and never gives up hope, the person has achieved a level of happiness that is independent of the events in his life. It is considered to be 1/2 of
faith.

While most Arabic speakers will know it is a human trait. It is a trair that has no English meaning. Therefore it carries a multitude of differences in It's translation as one has to interpret based upon the interpreters opinion of the meaning of the Surah the word is used.

Here are a few places it occurs

39:10
Qul ya AAibadi allatheena amanoo ittaqoo rabbakum lillatheena ahsanoo fee hathihi alddunya hasanatun waardu Allahi wasiAAatun innama yuwaffa alssabiroona ajrahum bighayri hisabin

The word alssabiroona diretly tranlated is "The Sabiroona" a best word for word translation is "The people with Sabr" In the following translations

............

Note I mentioned the following;

Quote:
Where in the Quran is it possible for any significant translation error
that effect the basic principles of the GHSS to occur. I dare say, none and no
where.
I need an answer for this.
I don't see "sab (sbr)" as significant at all to the extent it will effect the central doctrines and principles of Islam.

The Formula to be the Ideal Muslims is as follows;
Muslim + Quran + Sbr = Ideal Muslim (say 10/10)
In reality it is not possible for one to achieve 10/10, i.e. 100%.
Thus the most one can do is to be as close and possible toward 100%.

To achieve the optimal best one need to understand each of the 3 variables fully;
1. Muslim - know thyself as a human
2. Quran - understand this fully, note my Measurement and rating per each of 6,236 verses.
3. Sbr - the necessary human trait and effort, what is it?

To exercise the optimum one need to know what is expected from the Quran.
To do the best one can do, one must also 'Know Thyself' as exhorted by Socrates so that one can act within one's limits and competence. Islam do not promote one to 'know thyself' rather it exhort believers to be robot and follow what is demanded by the Quran and other texts.

I am certain the term 'steadfast' is sufficient to represent 'Sbr' in the case of Islam. A Muslim need to be 'steadfast' in performing whatever is expected in the Quran which will include patience and all other necessary qualities including the capacity for continuous improvement from one's existing status.

Most of the English translations has translated 'Sbr' as 'steadfast' while others has use the terms 'patiently' & 'persevere' which I think are sub-qualities of 'steadfast'.


While 'steadfast' is sufficient for 'Sbr' in the Quran, there is an ultimate higher quality that is relevant to humans in general, i.e.
1. This is the peak performancer for peak experience as from Abraham Maslow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_e...ak_Experiences

2. The other is the 'Flow' of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

Personally the peak-performers in both 1 and 2 would not opt to adopt the Quran as a belief to be practiced as the Quran is too low level for them.

I have read the Quran extensively and deeply, I am confident you will not find any term/concept that meet the following;
Where in the Quran is it possible for any significant translation error
that effect the basic principles of the GHSS to occur. I dare say, none and no
where.

Reminder: The term should have a significant effect on the basic principles of the Quran in relation to the GHSS.


As a comparison to other religions, note the term 'Dukkha' in Buddhism.
Generally 'dukkha' is translated as 'suffering' which led to all sort of misunderstanding and thus most missed this central and significant core principle. To understand the concept of 'dukkha' one need a book to explain it.
Yet Buddhism never insisted it must be studied in the original language!

Last edited by Continuum; 09-05-2015 at 12:47 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2015, 06:02 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,339 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1. The Quran as the only nearest direct words from God is the CORE of Islam.
2. A Muslim is a follower/believer of Islam
3. Therefore a Muslim must adopt the Quran at 100%.

If a Muslim do not accept the Quran at 100% then s/he is questioning God's credibility, and that would be a sin.

I am not saying you should not adopt the Hadiths as a guideline and for assistance, but the Quran must be the primary CORE driver of how one should be a Muslim.

You think i don't know that ? Are you really trying to teach me that ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the case of the "700" times from the Hadiths, it does not align with the Quran. Why not 800, 1,000 or 10,000?
Therefore whatever you agree with in the Hadiths, it must be solidly related to the Quran. Otherwise it is a human opinion and not Allah's words.

Quran is from God, Hadiths are words/acts of Muhammad or people of his time.

If you put away the hadiths then don't ever use them.
You are probably the first to use the hadiths to criticize Muhammad, but when it's for some practice rules of the religion you say that i shouldn't use and believe them and only use the Quran ? I disagree.

So a jew should only use the OT and put away the midrash, talmud, mishna etc ...
Who are you to say to people what they should "only" use to perform correctly their religion ?

The Gospel is the supposed words of Jesus. (Not all the christians believe he is God). So what, because it's not God who is speaking people can't refere to the Gospel who is the words and acts of Jesus ?
The Gospels are like the hadiths, it was written by people later : the acts and words of people, Jesus, disciples etc ...
If Jesus/the disciples say something concerning the hereafter or whatever, it's things that they know.

The hadiths are like the Gospels in the sense that it referes to the acts of the prophets, their famillies, the companions, and other people of that time.

OF COURSE, they are not all authentics (Hadiths like Gospels). And OF COURSE God words are above all.

But ignoring all the hadiths, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you do the Quran checklist test and scored 40%, then you are not a good Muslim [on first draft].

You don't know what God reserved for people. He is Mercyful so even if people don't do a lot of good actions they can enter to Paradise even if they are just good parents who worked hard for their familly.
Doesn't mean they are "bad muslims".

You make me laught when you give a supposed score as 40%. You can even give 1%, the Mercy of God is above all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Of course it is quite impossible to score 100% but one can strive with more efforts to improve one's score to 80%++. You may not know how many levels are there in Paradise, but 80% is definitely better than 40%.
Better to have even 1% and beeing in Paradise at the lower level than beeing in Hell.
Even 1% is good enought. Give just to someone the right to enter Paradise in level 1, he will be the happiest person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
31:15 refer specifically to Parents, not friends nor kins. Chapter 31 is a Meccan verses and to be kind to parents is a moral default and there is no significant necessity even to mention it.
However in the Medinian abrogating verses, there is no mentioned of 'kindness' to Parents,
9:23. O ye who believe! [Muslims] Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends [auliyaa] if they take pleasure in disbelief [as infidels] rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong doers.
Because of such verses and that 55% of the weightage within the Quran is contempt, animosity, abomination, etc. against disbelievers-infidels-kuffar, SOME [not all, not you] evil prone will not hesitate to kill their parents, kins, brethren in the cause of Allah.

Verse 9.23 urged the muslims to help God and his messanger instead of choosing their confort and familly in that particular period. The uncle of the Prophet (Abu Talib) wasn't hated by the prophet.

Even the prophets like Abraham or Noah didn't hate their famillies but they had to leave them.
They never said they hated them.

Look at what said Abraham concerning Lot's people :

11.74 And when the fright had left Abraham and the good tidings had reached him, he began to argue with Us concerning the people of Lot.

1.75
Indeed, Abraham was forbearing, grieving and [frequently] returning [to Allah ].

Or Muhammad about the non believers :

6.33 We know that you, [O Muhammad], are saddened by what they say. And indeed, they do not call you untruthful, but it is the verses of Allah that the wrongdoers reject.

He didn't hate them because don't forget they were his tribe.


Even Jesus said that in the Gospel by the way. This has nothing to do with hatred.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2015, 06:04 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,663 posts, read 74,604,692 times
Reputation: 48168
It depends on who does the scoring Allah or Boko haram
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2015, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
You think i don't know that ? Are you really trying to teach me that ?
There is only "teaching" if there is an accepted teacher-student relationship. There is no such thing in this case. I am only expressing my point of view in this discussion forum.

Quote:
Quran is from God, Hadiths are words/acts of Muhammad or people of his time.

If you put away the hadiths then don't ever use them.
You are probably the first to use the hadiths to criticize Muhammad, but when it's for some practice rules of the religion you say that i shouldn't use and believe them and only use the Quran ? I disagree.

So a jew should only use the OT and put away the midrash, talmud, mishna etc ...
Who are you to say to people what they should "only" use to perform correctly their religion ?

The Gospel is the supposed words of Jesus. (Not all the christians believe he is God). So what, because it's not God who is speaking people can't refere to the Gospel who is the words and acts of Jesus ?
The Gospels are like the hadiths, it was written by people later : the acts and words of people, Jesus, disciples etc ...
If Jesus/the disciples say something concerning the hereafter or whatever, it's things that they know.

The hadiths are like the Gospels in the sense that it referes to the acts of the prophets, their famillies, the companions, and other people of that time.

OF COURSE, they are not all authentics (Hadiths like Gospels). And OF COURSE God words are above all.

But ignoring all the hadiths, no.
I did not say one should ignore the hadiths.
One [if need to] can use the hadiths for reference and for certain purposes but the hadiths should never be used as an authority for any final decision.

You stated '700' times as mentioned by the Hadiths, e.g.
Every action a son of Adam does shall be multiplied—a good action by ten times its value, up to 700 times. Allah says: With the exception of fasting, which belongs to Me, and I reward it accordingly. For, one abandons his desire and food for My sake.
What I implied was, as long as the above is not from the Quran [words of God] then we cannot take it as authoritative and final.
My point is the rating exercise should depend on the Quran at 100% and not the hadiths or any other related texts.
Thus if you were to pay zakat, you do not have to do it 700 times but do it to the best of your effort within reasonably within your circumstance.


Quote:
You don't know what God reserved for people. He is Mercyful so even if people don't do a lot of good actions they can enter to Paradise even if they are just good parents who worked hard for their familly.
Doesn't mean they are "bad muslims".

You make me laught when you give a supposed score as 40%. You can even give 1%, the Mercy of God is above all.

Better to have even 1% and beeing in Paradise at the lower level than beeing in Hell.
Even 1% is good enought. Give just to someone the right to enter Paradise in level 1, he will be the happiest person.
Your sense of 'good' is pathetic [terrible].
Looks like you will be happy with 1% marks for all your academic tests in school as long as you attend schools and don't get zero marks.
If you are employed, you'd would be happy to score 1% in your annual review of Performance Evaluation as long as you do not score zero and create problems in the company.

Note the normal default as a human being is, as long as you are not handicapped, [e.g. concessions given to the Bedouins, sick, lame, etc.] as an average person one should always strive to score as near as possible to the max possible for any human being, i.e. do your best in relation to one's potential.

A Muslim do not go directly to paradise. When a Muslim score 1%, s/he is likely to face a lot of torture before ending up in the lower realms of paradise. When one aims at 1% you never know whether you are really achieving 1%. Therefore the general attitude of any normal person is to score as high as possible so that the 'real' achievement is somewhere around the higher level.

In general, Allah condemns lazy Muslims and called them hypocrites.


Quote:
Verse 9.23 urged the muslims to help God and his messanger instead of choosing their confort and familly in that particular period. The uncle of the Prophet (Abu Talib) wasn't hated by the prophet.

Even the prophets like Abraham or Noah didn't hate their famillies but they had to leave them.
They never said they hated them.

Look at what said Abraham concerning Lot's people :

11.74 And when the fright had left Abraham and the good tidings had reached him, he began to argue with Us concerning the people of Lot.

1.75 Indeed, Abraham was forbearing, grieving and [frequently] returning [to Allah ].

Or Muhammad about the non believers :

6.33 We know that you, [O Muhammad], are saddened by what they say. And indeed, they do not call you untruthful, but it is the verses of Allah that the wrongdoers reject.

He didn't hate them because don't forget they were his tribe.


Even Jesus said that in the Gospel by the way. This has nothing to do with hatred.
Again I dare say [btw my view not teaching] your level of understanding the Quran in this point [re hatred] is very low. Note the following re intense abhorrence by Allah.
Just in case you do not understand what 'abhorrence' mean. Abhorrence is reserved to represent intense and extreme hate, repugnance, vile, abomination and the likes.
Abhorrence | Define Abhorrence at Dictionary.com

Here are some verses re Allah's abhorrence on the infidels, kuffar, kafir, kafara; [mine]
22:44. (And) the dwellers in Midian. And Moses was denied; but I indulged the disbelievers [infidels] a long while, then I seized them [infidels], and how (terrible) was My abhorrence!

34:45. Those [of old] before them [Quraish infidels] denied, and these have not attained a tithe of that which We bestowed on them (of old); yet they [Quraish infidels] denied My messengers. How intense then was My abhorrence (of them)!

35:26. Then seized I [Allah] those [infidels] who disbelieved, and how intense was My abhorrence!

35:39. He [Allah] it is who hath made you regents in the earth; so he [the infidel] who disbelieveth, his disbelief be on his own head. Their [infidels'] disbelief increaseth for the disbelievers, in their Lord's sight, naught save abhorrence. Their disbelief increaseth for the disbelievers naught save loss.

40:10. Lo! (on that day) those [infidels] who disbelieve are informed by proclamation: Verily Allah's abhorrence is more terrible than your abhorrence one of another, when ye [infidels] were called unto the faith but did refuse.
Because of Allah intense abhorrence for the infidels [kuffar] he had destroyed generations of infidels [kuffar] in the past as reflected in many of such verses.
17:17. How many generations [of old infidels] have we destroyed since Noah! And Allah sufficeth as knower and Beholder of the sins of His slaves.

Because of Allah hatred, in Hell Allah execute the most inhumane kind of tortures on infidels. Note there are more than 500++ verses involving various degrees of cruelty by Allah in this world and in Hell. Here is merely one example of an extreme case.
4:56. Lo! Those [infidels] who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them [the infidels] to the Fire. As often as their [the infidels] skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they [infidels] may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

Allah is not merciful per se nor compassionate to any human being but ONLY if one is a Muslim.
One can expect Muhammad's uncle [who took care and protected him] to be tortured [per Quran] as any other infidel, [kuffar, kafir, kafara] without exception.
111: 1. The power of Abu Lahab [condemed uncle of Muhmammad] will perish, and he [as infidel] will perish.
111:2. His wealth and gains will not exempt him.
111:3. He [as infidel] will be plunged in flaming fire,
111:4. And his wife, the wood carrier,
111:5. Will have upon her neck a halter of palm fibre.
Even Muhammad cannot save his uncle from the torment of hell;
9:113. It is not for the Prophet, and those [Muslims] who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell fire.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2015, 06:14 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,339 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am only expressing my point of view in this discussion forum.

I did not say one should ignore the hadiths.
One [if need to] can use the hadiths for reference and for certain purposes but the hadiths should never be used as an authority for any final decision.

What I implied was, as long as the above is not from the Quran [words of God] then we cannot take it as authoritative and final.
Ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your sense of 'good' is pathetic [terrible].
Looks like you will be happy with 1% marks for all your academic tests in school as long as you attend schools and don't get zero marks.
If you are employed, you'd would be happy to score 1% in your annual review of Performance Evaluation as long as you do not score zero and create problems in the company.
I think that it depends what we are talking about. If at school i pass without having a good score, the principale is that i passed.
Even if you had your hight school diploma close call, then it's ok. You can enter university.
Same for the Paradise, even if your score is low, at least you passed.

Of course like your exemple of work as an employee, the more your work is better the more you get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the normal default as a human being is, as long as you are not handicapped, [e.g. concessions given to the Bedouins, sick, lame, etc.] as an average person one should always strive to score as near as possible to the max possible for any human being, i.e. do your best in relation to one's potential.
Sure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A Muslim do not go directly to paradise. When a Muslim score 1%, s/he is likely to face a lot of torture before ending up in the lower realms of paradise. When one aims at 1% you never know whether you are really achieving 1%. Therefore the general attitude of any normal person is to score as high as possible so that the 'real' achievement is somewhere around the higher level.

In general, Allah condemns lazy Muslims and called them hypocrites.
I don't think so. Eve, if you are lazy but do the minumum God asked and don't do bad things then it's ok.
The muslims who risk Hell are those who do bad actions, or don't do anything for God (as fasting, prayers etc). But someone who do the minimum and believe in God then it's enought for him.

The hypocrites are those who don't really believe in God and have doubts or are traitors.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Again I dare say [btw my view not teaching] your level of understanding the Quran in this point [re hatred] is very low. Note the following re intense abhorrence by Allah.
Just in case you do not understand what 'abhorrence' mean. Abhorrence is reserved to represent intense and extreme hate, repugnance, vile, abomination and the likes.
Abhorrence | Define Abhorrence at Dictionary.com


I know what it means. But God didn't ask us to hate those people.
He asked us to hate/abhore some things like polytheism and avoid it like we should avoid many other things like robery, adultery etc.
So we should hate/abhore the sin but not especially the sinner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Allah is not merciful per se nor compassionate to any human being but ONLY if one is a Muslim.
One can expect Muhammad's uncle [who took care and protected him] to be tortured [per Quran] as any other infidel, [kuffar, kafir, kafara] without exception.
111: 1. The power of Abu Lahab [condemed uncle of Muhmammad] will perish, and he [as infidel] will perish.
111:2. His wealth and gains will not exempt him.
111:3. He [as infidel] will be plunged in flaming fire,
111:4. And his wife, the wood carrier,
111:5. Will have upon her neck a halter of palm fibre.

This is about Abu Lahab, the uncle who took care of him and helped him was Abu Talib.
But true he couldn't do anything for him as he died in his ancestors religion.

Like Abraham could do nothing for his father and Noah his son etc
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top