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Old 09-06-2015, 06:37 AM
 
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Continuum, as a fellow atheist, let me just throw this out there.

When you say things like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note Reality:
1. It is 100% impossible for God to exists.
2. Believing in an impossible God is purely emotional, therefore desperately bias.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
God is an impossibility and thus will NEVER be around to tell us what is the correct position.
it makes the rest of us appear really ignorant and illogical. Until you can demonstrate these statements conclusively, please stop making blanket assertions of fact like this, it just makes you look unreasonable and irrational.

If you would like, make a thread in the A&A forum wherein you develop and put forth your conclusive proof that there is no God, and I will be happy to argue through it with you. If indeed you have conclusive logical and evidential support that no God of any kind can exist, you really shouldn't be wasting your time on message boards, you should be publishing in Philosophy journals. If on the other hand, you are falling prey to a logical error, or a confirmation bias, by working through your stance, we can sort out where it has gone wrong, and you can reformulate your arguments.

As far as the rest, you really need to learn that other people are under no obligation to practice their religion in the way you understand it. You would do better to ask how they view the world, ask how they practice their religion, and listen to the answers you get, rather than to try to make up your own interpretation and understanding of their faith, and then act confused when they are not doing it the way you ( a non-believer) think they should.

It doesn't mean you have to agree, but you will forever be confused, lost, and unconstructive as you are now, if you won't learn from your questioning.

-NoCapo
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Old 09-06-2015, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Continuum, as a fellow atheist, let me just throw this out there.

When you say things like this:



it makes the rest of us appear really ignorant and illogical. Until you can demonstrate these statements conclusively, please stop making blanket assertions of fact like this, it just makes you look unreasonable and irrational.

If you would like, make a thread in the A&A forum wherein you develop and put forth your conclusive proof that there is no God, and I will be happy to argue through it with you. If indeed you have conclusive logical and evidential support that no God of any kind can exist, you really shouldn't be wasting your time on message boards, you should be publishing in Philosophy journals. If on the other hand, you are falling prey to a logical error, or a confirmation bias, by working through your stance, we can sort out where it has gone wrong, and you can reformulate your arguments.

As far as the rest, you really need to learn that other people are under no obligation to practice their religion in the way you understand it. You would do better to ask how they view the world, ask how they practice their religion, and listen to the answers you get, rather than to try to make up your own interpretation and understanding of their faith, and then act confused when they are not doing it the way you ( a non-believer) think they should.

It doesn't mean you have to agree, but you will forever be confused, lost, and unconstructive as you are now, if you won't learn from your questioning.

-NoCapo
Note this thread

100% Certainty God Does Not Exist
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Old 09-06-2015, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
I think that it depends what we are talking about. If at school i pass without having a good score, the principale is that i passed.
Even if you had your hight school diploma close call, then it's ok. You can enter university.
Same for the Paradise, even if your score is low, at least you passed.

Of course like your exemple of work as an employee, the more your work is better the more you get.


I don't think so. Eve, if you are lazy but do the minumum God asked and don't do bad things then it's ok.
The muslims who risk Hell are those who do bad actions, or don't do anything for God (as fasting, prayers etc). But someone who do the minimum and believe in God then it's enought for him.

The hypocrites are those who don't really believe in God and have doubts or are traitors.
You don't seem to get my point.
Generally, if you score 1% it is not possible that you will pass any test.
So don't talk about 'passing any test' with a 1% score.

The Quran mentioned many times about Allah testing and trying the Muslim.
Per the Quran, getting to paradise is not a straight forward process.
Therefore a 1% performance in your own assessment may not even get you to paradise at all even if you are a Muslim.
I presume you are familiar with the concept of "tarry" in the Quran where 1 day in the hereafter is 50,000 Earth years. If you performance is 1%, i.e. miserable performance, you could say tarry for 10 day in the hereafter, that is 500,000 years, even then there is no certainty you will end up in paradise. If you tarry for 100 days, that is 5,000,000 earth years!

Therefore to be sure, it would be a safe bet to score as high as possible, say 80%++.
To do so you have to use the Quran as a checklist and check off your performance and conformance with each of the 6,236 verse.




Quote:
I know what it means. But God didn't ask us to hate those people.
He asked us to hate/abhore some things like polytheism and avoid it like we should avoid many other things like robery, adultery etc.
So we should hate/abhore the sin but not especially the sinner.
That is why I dare say you do not understand the Quran fully enough.
It is obvious from the verses I listed it meant God has extreme hatred towards the infidels due to their polytheism and idolatry.
It is because of God's hatred that he punished and torture them with the worst torment in Hell.
Read those verses re abhorrence toward the infidels I quoted again and understand it is the sinner who should be hated and the sin to be avoided.


Here are the other verses to support my point that it is the sinner [infidels, kuffar] who should be hated/abhorred;
28:42. And We made a curse to follow them [infidels] in this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they [infidels] will be among the hateful.

7:166. So when they [Jews infidels] took pride in that which they [infidels] had been forbidden, We said unto them [infidel Jews]: Be ye apes despised and loathed!

60:4 ....And there hath arisen between us [Muslims] and you [infidels] hostility and hate for ever until ye [infidels] believe in Allah .....

2:65. And ye know of those of you [the Jews] who broke the Sabbath, bow We said unto them [the Jews]: Be ye apes, despised and hated!

This is why many Muslims [not you] are stern with and 'hate'/abhor non-Muslims so as to score more merit points per Quran and get more assurance to end up in paradise. These Muslims will interpret their hating and abhorrence are right and there is no central authority to say they are wrong. They will tell you.. look I am following exactly God's principles and practices as per the Quran.


Quote:
This is about Abu Lahab, the uncle who took care of him and helped him was Abu Talib.
But true he couldn't do anything for him as he died in his ancestors religion.
Like Abraham could do nothing for his father and Noah his son etc.
OK, misquoted that one.
Should be this,
9:113. It is not for the Prophet, and those [Muslims] who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell fire.
Story wise the above was related to Abu Talib who remained an infidel.
My point is it was Muhammad who authored the Quran and he did not find any excuse for his favored uncle like what they did for Abraham's father who escaped because of a promise.
Overall, theory wise what God did was immoral because he tortured infidels so horribly just because they have a different belief.
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Old 09-06-2015, 08:15 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,250,359 times
Reputation: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

I did, but you nowhere in there lay out anything approaching to a coherent argument for logical and epistemological certainty that a God cannot exist. You merely talk about how it ought to be done, how wonderful it would be, and how it ought to be possible.

Until you have that in hand, maybe you could stop playing into the stereotypes of atheists, and asserting what you don't know as absolute truth? Anyway, this is off topic here, and could be discussed further on the A&A forum.

My broader point is that when discussing a religion that you do not and have not followed, maybe a little humility is in order. Your interpretation of Islam is not what muslims actually follow, and if you want to do more than simply triumph over strawmen, perhaps you should listen to and discuss what actual muslims have to tell you about their own beliefs.

-NoCapo
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Old 09-06-2015, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You don't seem to get my point.
Generally, if you score 1% it is not possible that you will pass any test.
So don't talk about 'passing any test' with a 1% score.

The Quran mentioned many times about Allah testing and trying the Muslim.
Per the Quran, getting to paradise is not a straight forward process.
Therefore a 1% performance in your own assessment may not even get you to paradise at all even if you are a Muslim.
I presume you are familiar with the concept of "tarry" in the Quran where 1 day in the hereafter is 50,000 Earth years. If you performance is 1%, i.e. miserable performance, you could say tarry for 10 day in the hereafter, that is 500,000 years, even then there is no certainty you will end up in paradise. If you tarry for 100 days, that is 5,000,000 earth years!

Therefore to be sure, it would be a safe bet to score as high as possible, say 80%++.
To do so you have to use the Quran as a checklist and check off your performance and conformance with each of the 6,236 verse.




That is why I dare say you do not understand the Quran fully enough.
It is obvious from the verses I listed it meant God has extreme hatred towards the infidels due to their polytheism and idolatry.
It is because of God's hatred that he punished and torture them with the worst torment in Hell.
Read those verses re abhorrence toward the infidels I quoted again and understand it is the sinner who should be hated and the sin to be avoided.


Here are the other verses to support my point that it is the sinner [infidels, kuffar] who should be hated/abhorred;
28:42. And We made a curse to follow them [infidels] in this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they [infidels] will be among the hateful.

7:166. So when they [Jews infidels] took pride in that which they [infidels] had been forbidden, We said unto them [infidel Jews]: Be ye apes despised and loathed!

60:4 ....And there hath arisen between us [Muslims] and you [infidels] hostility and hate for ever until ye [infidels] believe in Allah .....

2:65. And ye know of those of you [the Jews] who broke the Sabbath, bow We said unto them [the Jews]: Be ye apes, despised and hated!

This is why many Muslims [not you] are stern with and 'hate'/abhor non-Muslims so as to score more merit points per Quran and get more assurance to end up in paradise. These Muslims will interpret their hating and abhorrence are right and there is no central authority to say they are wrong. They will tell you.. look I am following exactly God's principles and practices as per the Quran.


OK, misquoted that one.
Should be this,
9:113. It is not for the Prophet, and those [Muslims] who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell fire.
Story wise the above was related to Abu Talib who remained an infidel.
My point is it was Muhammad who authored the Quran and he did not find any excuse for his favored uncle like what they did for Abraham's father who escaped because of a promise.
Overall, theory wise what God did was immoral because he tortured infidels so horribly just because they have a different belief.
To make some thing clear regarding 9:113

It has notheing to do with infidels (Unbelievers) these are people that do believe.they believe in and worship a divinity other than Allaah(swt) They are not infiels they are Mushriks, (idolators). They are disbelievers, not unbelievers. they do believe in the existence of a deity and have reason to learn about Allaah(swt) but choose to worship something other that Allaah(swt) thereby committing the sin of Shirk.
As that divinity does not exist, praying to it will not bring them forgiveness or heaven. Our prayers for them are meaningless as they will remain in Hell until that which they worshiped frees them.

A few ayyats before and including 113 may help clarify this

Quote:
BEHOLD, God has bought of the believers their lives and their possessions, promising them paradise in return, ,[and so] they fight in God's cause, and slay, and are slain: a promise which in truth He has willed upon Himself in [the words of] the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Qur'an. And who could be more faithful to his covenant than God? Rejoice, then, in the bargain which you have made with Him: for this, this is the triumph supreme! - 9:111 (Asad)

Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme. - 9:111 (Y. Ali)

Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Quran. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. - 9:111 (Picktall)
Quote:
[It is a triumph of] those who turn [unto God] in repentance [whenever they have sinned], and who worship and praise [Him], and go on and on [seeking His goodly acceptance], [ and bow down [before Him] and prostrate themselves in adoration, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and keep to the bounds set by God. And give thou [O Prophet] the glad tiding [of God's promise] to all believers. - 9:112 (Asad)

Those that turn (to Allah. in repentance; that serve Him, and praise Him; that wander in devotion to the cause of Allah,: that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer; that enjoin good and forbid evil; and observe the limit set by Allah.- (These do rejoice). So proclaim the glad tidings to the Believers. - 9:112 (Y. Ali)

(Triumphant) are those who turn repentant (to Allah), those who serve (Him), those who praise (Him), those who fast, these who bow down, those who fall prostrate (in worship), those who enjoin the right and who forbid the wrong and those who keep the limits (ordained) of Allah And give glad tidings to believers!. - 9:112 (Picktall)
Quote:
IT DOES NOT behove the Prophet and those who have attained to faith to pray that they who ascribed divinity to aught beside God be forgiven [by Him] even though they happened to be [their] near of kin -after it has been made clear unto them that those [dead sinners] are destined for. the blazing fire. - 9:113 (Asad)

It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire. - 9:113 (Y. Ali)

It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell fire. - 9:113 (Picktall)
There are/have been Jews and Christian that did not commit the Sin of Shirk and have prayed or do Pray to the God(swt) of Abraham, Noah, Moses all the prophets (Pbut) and they will reach heaven as they did not commit Shirk.--Worship of anything other than Allaah(swt)

It is to know avail to pray for an idolator as they do not want anything from Allaah(swt)
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Old 09-06-2015, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
To make some thing clear regarding 9:113

It has notheing to do with infidels (Unbelievers) these are people that do believe.they believe in and worship a divinity other than Allaah(swt) They are not infiels they are Mushriks, (idolators). They are disbelievers, not unbelievers. they do believe in the existence of a deity and have reason to learn about Allaah(swt) but choose to worship something other that Allaah(swt) thereby committing the sin of Shirk.
As that divinity does not exist, praying to it will not bring them forgiveness or heaven. Our prayers for them are meaningless as they will remain in Hell until that which they worshiped frees them.

A few ayyats before and including 113 may help clarify this

There are/have been Jews and Christian that did not commit the Sin of Shirk and have prayed or do Pray to the God(swt) of Abraham, Noah, Moses all the prophets (Pbut) and they will reach heaven as they did not commit Shirk.--Worship of anything other than Allaah(swt)

It is to know avail to pray for an idolator as they do not want anything from Allaah(swt)
Note in general "Infidel" refers to;

noun


1. Religion.
  1. a person who does not accept a particular faith, especially Christianity.
  2. (in Christian use) an unbeliever, especially a Muslim.
  3. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.
2. a person who has no religious faith; unbeliever.
3. (loosely) a person who disbelieves or doubts a particular theory, belief, creed, etc.; skeptic.
Infidel | Define Infidel at Dictionary.com

Therefore an idolater is one who do not accept the Islamic faith, therefore is an 'infidel.'
There is no issue on this semantic issue.

Abu Talib [favored uncle of Muhammad] was a Meccan pagan, i.e. an idolater and thus an infidel.
Mushriks belong to the class 'kafir.'

Note Abu Talib must be a sensible person. He took care of Muhammad and thus must have known Muhammad inside out and he can see something is wrong from a person he knew so well.
Abu Talib would have sense something wrong like this guy who sent his son, who claim his is God's agent, to see a psychiatrist.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg


It is very unfortunate you have lost your sense of basic humanity.
All humans grieve whenever there is death of near kins or friends.
You should know this, death of kins produce the greatest stress and related stress hormones [cortisols] etc.
All normal humans empathize whenever some mishaps or misfortune happen to kins or close friends. [Problem is certain religion by its immutable texts make humans abnormal]
When a person prays or asks for forgiveness it is an evolutionary impulse that happen in their brain and they have to do it necessarily.
For the Quran to ask believers as humans [as you propose in being a Muslim] not to grieve and to show empathy via prayers or otherwise is very inhumane.

Physiologically there is also a need to do the above [grieve and empathize] regardless of religions or beliefs to burn off of the related neurotransmitters in the brain and other stress chemicals in the body, otherwise they become toxins and damage the brain and body. Even elephants, gorilla and other animals do that to their own kind and in some case other kinds.
http://www.koko.org/node/2144


Hey, where is your humanity?

Last edited by Continuum; 09-06-2015 at 10:26 PM..
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Old 09-07-2015, 05:41 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note in general "Infidel" refers to;

noun


1. Religion.
  1. a person who does not accept a particular faith, especially Christianity.
  2. (in Christian use) an unbeliever, especially a Muslim.
  3. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.
2. a person who has no religious faith; unbeliever.
3. (loosely) a person who disbelieves or doubts a particular theory, belief, creed, etc.; skeptic.
Infidel | Define Infidel at Dictionary.com

Therefore an idolater is one who do not accept the Islamic faith, therefore is an 'infidel.'
There is no issue on this semantic issue.

Abu Talib [favored uncle of Muhammad] was a Meccan pagan, i.e. an idolater and thus an infidel.
Mushriks belong to the class 'kafir.'

Note Abu Talib must be a sensible person. He took care of Muhammad and thus must have known Muhammad inside out and he can see something is wrong from a person he knew so well.
Abu Talib would have sense something wrong like this guy who sent his son, who claim his is God's agent, to see a psychiatrist.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg


It is very unfortunate you have lost your sense of basic humanity.
All humans grieve whenever there is death of near kins or friends.
You should know this, death of kins produce the greatest stress and related stress hormones [cortisols] etc.
All normal humans empathize whenever some mishaps or misfortune happen to kins or close friends. [Problem is certain religion by its immutable texts make humans abnormal]
When a person prays or asks for forgiveness it is an evolutionary impulse that happen in their brain and they have to do it necessarily.
For the Quran to ask believers as humans [as you propose in being a Muslim] not to grieve and to show empathy via prayers or otherwise is very inhumane.

Physiologically there is also a need to do the above [grieve and empathize] regardless of religions or beliefs to burn off of the related neurotransmitters in the brain and other stress chemicals in the body, otherwise they become toxins and damage the brain and body. Even elephants, gorilla and other animals do that to their own kind and in some case other kinds.
Do Gorillas Feel Empathy? | koko.org


Hey, where is your humanity?
You lost me. Where do you come to the conclusion Muslims do not grieve? More specifically that I did not grieve the death of my parents, 2 wives, nearly every childhood friend I grew up with. Grief has been a very large part of my life as I came into old age and outlived almost all I have loved.
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Old 09-07-2015, 05:50 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You lost me. Where do you come to the conclusion Muslims do not grieve? More specifically that I did not grieve the death of my parents, 2 wives, nearly every childhood friend I grew up with. Grief has been a very large part of my life as I came into old age and outlived almost all I have loved.
Yes, I have mentioned in previous posts/threads that I inherited from my Mongol ancestors the belief that we should grieve a birth and celebrate a death. but I am still human and unable to hold back tears even when culturally inappropriate to my ancestors. BTW my ancestors converted to Christianity about 500 years ago
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Old 09-07-2015, 06:22 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You don't seem to get my point.
Generally, if you score 1% it is not possible that you will pass any test.
So don't talk about 'passing any test' with a 1% score.

The Quran mentioned many times about Allah testing and trying the Muslim.
Per the Quran, getting to paradise is not a straight forward process.
Therefore a 1% performance in your own assessment may not even get you to paradise at all even if you are a Muslim.
If you are a muslim then you believe in the minimum required and do what it was asked to you and avoid evil, then even if you don't do a lot of good actions/dhikr etc you can enter Paradise.

The condition is to avoid the big sins (i suggest you to make a reasearch about the biggest sins in Islam), or ask for forgivness if you commited them and never return to it.

Also Allah can punish someone here (in this life) or the grave, this can expiates some of his sins before the Resurrection Day.

This is explained by the fact that you enter in Paradise by God's Mercy.

I suggest you to make a research about God's Mercy and you'll see by yourself.

Let say someone is poor, illiterate, and works all day long to survive him and his familly, then according to you he can't enter Paradise because of a low score ?
Not everyone has the possibility to do good actions or have time to learn/study the Quran or read it.
Some don't even have access properly to the religion (no mosque or book avalaibles near them).
I don't think you can generalize. And i'm not saying beeing lazy is good, just that it's possible to have a low score depending of your situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore to be sure, it would be a safe bet to score as high as possible, say 80%++.
To do so you have to use the Quran as a checklist and check off your performance and conformance with each of the 6,236 verse.
Of course it's better to do more I never said doing the minimum is great.
But giving 40 or 80% means you think you are God to judge who can enter or not.
You an we have absolutly no idea of that. Mercy of God is above all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is why I dare say you do not understand the Quran fully enough.
It is obvious from the verses I listed it meant God has extreme hatred towards the infidels due to their polytheism and idolatry.
It is because of God's hatred that he punished and torture them with the worst torment in Hell.
Read those verses re abhorrence toward the infidels I quoted again and understand it is the sinner who should be hated and the sin to be avoided.
I know that. But you said that we -muslims- will be rewarded if we hate non-believers. Which is completly untrue.
I already explained you that Abu Taleb wasn't hate by Muhammad.
And that Abraham didn't hate his father too.
The think is that once they are dead we can't pray for them or ask forgiveness if they died as unbelievers/polytheists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
OK, misquoted that one.
Should be this,
9:113. It is not for the Prophet, and those [Muslims] who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell fire.
Story wise the above was related to Abu Talib who remained an infidel.
My point is it was Muhammad who authored the Quran and he did not find any excuse for his favored uncle like what they did for Abraham's father who escaped because of a promise.
Overall, theory wise what God did was immoral because he tortured infidels so horribly just because they have a different belief.
Abraham's father didn't escape for anything. It's even in the next verse you quoted :

9.114 And the request of forgiveness of Abraham for his father was only because of a promise he had made to him. But when it became apparent to Abraham that his father was an enemy to Allah , he disassociated himself from him. Indeed was Abraham compassionate and patient.

He knew then he couldn't ask forgiveness for his father if he stays a disbeliever and die in that state.
Because before he used to ask for forgiveness for him thinking he may turn to God.
You can ask for guidance but no forgiveness if someone is a disbeliver.
Even the prophet Muhammad (saw) made some duaa for that purpose (in hadiths).
And many muslims make duaa for their parents who aren't muslims.

Last edited by fazira; 09-07-2015 at 06:47 AM..
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Old 09-07-2015, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You lost me. Where do you come to the conclusion Muslims do not grieve? More specifically that I did not grieve the death of my parents, 2 wives, nearly every childhood friend I grew up with. Grief has been a very large part of my life as I came into old age and outlived almost all I have loved.
I stated all normal human beings by nature has an inherent neural circuit to grieve.

However a Muslim as per the Quran is not encouraged to grieve.
Therefore to comply as fully as possible as a Muslim, Muslims are likely to suppress their grieve.

Here is one example amongst the many on the point of grieving;
3:139. Faint not nor grieve, for ye will overcome them [threats] if ye [Muslims] are (indeed) believers.

57:23. that ye grieve not for the sake of that [good] which hath escaped you, nor yet exult because of that [good] which hath been given. Allah loveth not all prideful boasters,

39:61. And Allah delivereth those [Muslims] who ward off (evil) because of their deserts. Evil toucheth them not, nor do they grieve.
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