U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-09-2015, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Not true. A muslim doctor should help him because the prisoner should be well treated according to Islam.

76.7 They [are those who] fulfill [their] vows and fear a Day whose evil will be widespread.
76.8
And they give food in spite of love for it to the needy, the orphan, and the captive


The rules and regulations concerning prisoners of war in Islam are covered in manuals of Islamic jurisprudence, based upon Islamic teachings, in both the Qur'an and hadith.
Treatment of prisoners

Upon capture, the prisoners must be guarded and not ill-treated. Islamic law holds that the prisoners must be fed and clothed, either by the Islamic government or by the individual who has custody of the prisoner. This position is supported by the verse [Quran 76:8] of the Quran.


The prisoners must be fed in a dignified manner, and must not be forced to beg for their subsistence.Muhammad's early followers also considered it a principle to not separate prisoners from their relatives.

After the fighting is over, prisoners are to be released, with some prospect of survival, or ransomed. The freeing or ransoming of prisoners by Muslims themselves is highly recommended as a charitable act.The Qur'an also urges kindness to captives and recommends, their liberation by purchase or manumission.


The freeing of captives is recommended both for the expiation of sinsand as an act of simple benevolence.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_of_war_in_Islam




Your proposal is wrong because you ask muslims to count each good actions they do.

But i told you that we enter to Paradise by God's Mercy.

And i told you that we don't know what "score" will make us enter in this or that level/heaven in Paradise.

Plus, counting "points" means in a sense that you think you'll enter in Paradise, while i told you that even a muslim who do the maximum isn't sure to enter in it.


We already have many books concerning different subjects like what sins we should avoid, what good actions are the best etc ...
We already have that which comes from both the Quran & hadiths.
But the system of points we don't have it and i think it would be rejected by the majority of muslims.




33.21 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.

The hadiths help us for that and contain explanations of some verses, plus prophecies and others details concerning hell, paradise, the other prophets etc...



What you say is correct but you are describing people with a weak faith.
I don't know what to say about them, because when you believe in God you should strongly believe in Him. If the person in the first place don't really believe in Him and do acts of adoration (5 pilars) without great conviction, it's an other problem.
I don't have the right though to say they are not muslim because i don't know what is in the heart of people.
It's God who will juge about that. Because then if they aren't real believers even if they do a lot of good actions -like you said and make a list- i don't know what will happen to them.

Here what Allah said about people who did the minimum, who have not a lot of good actions, generally it's explained in tafsirs those people have 50/50 bad and good actions :


7.46 And between them will be a partition, and on [its] elevations are men who recognize all by their mark. And they call out to the companions of Paradise, "Peace be upon you." They have not [yet] entered it, but they long intensely.

7.47 And when their eyes are turned toward the companions of the Fire, they say, "Our Lord, do not place us with the wrongdoing people."

7.48 And the companions of the Elevations will call to men [within Hell] whom they recognize by their mark, saying, "Of no avail to you was your gathering and [the fact] that you were arrogant."

7.49 [ Allah will say], "Are these the ones whom you [inhabitants of Hell] swore that Allah would never offer them mercy? Enter Paradise, [O People of the Elevations]. No fear will there be concerning you, nor will you grieve."


Tafsir :

Al-A`raf's residents are those whose good and bad deeds are equal, as Hudhayfah, Ibn `Abbas, Ibn Mas`ud and several of the Salaf and later generations said.'' Ibn Jarir recorded that Hudhayfah was asked about the people of Al-A`raf and he said, "A people whose good and bad deeds are equal.

Their evil deeds prevented them from qualifying to enter Paradise, and their good deeds qualified them to avoid the Fire. Therefore, they are stopped there on the wall until Allah judges them.


Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The People of Al-A`raf


Like i told you those people are at risk. But they can enter in Paradise by Allah's Mercy.

Excellent replies, you have given very clear explanations. Jazakallah Khayran (May Allah grant you more. than what you have given)
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-09-2015, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Not true. A muslim doctor should help him because the prisoner should be well treated according to Islam.

76.7 They [are those who] fulfill [their] vows and fear a Day whose evil will be widespread.
76.8 And they give food in spite of love for it to the needy, the orphan, and the captive


The rules and regulations concerning prisoners of war in Islam are covered in manuals of Islamic jurisprudence, based upon Islamic teachings, in both the Qur'an and hadith.
Treatment of prisoners
Upon capture, the prisoners must be guarded and not ill-treated. Islamic law holds that the prisoners must be fed and clothed, either by the Islamic government or by the individual who has custody of the prisoner. This position is supported by the verse [Quran 76:8] of the Quran.
The prisoners must be fed in a dignified manner, and must not be forced to beg for their subsistence.Muhammad's early followers also considered it a principle to not separate prisoners from their relatives.
After the fighting is over, prisoners are to be released, with some prospect of survival, or ransomed. The freeing or ransoming of prisoners by Muslims themselves is highly recommended as a charitable act.The Qur'an also urges kindness to captives and recommends, their liberation by purchase or manumission.

The freeing of captives is recommended both for the expiation of sinsand as an act of simple benevolence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_of_war_in_Islam
Note 'How To Read The Quran Effectively.'
http://www.city-data.com/blogs/blog3...fectively.html

I don't see you deliberating this point in the context of a full spectrum of the Quran and other knowledge as in my above blog post.

My current reading of the Quran is always from the chronological order [Noldeke's] and one will note 76:8 is of the early-middle Mecca phase where there is no emphasis on war with infidels. Pickthall translate that term as 'prisoner'. 'Captive' can also refer to slave. Thus 76:8 refer to prisoner or captive in general which could be due to imprisonment for various purposes, e.g. theft, murder, adultery, other crimes and not referring to prisoner of war specifically.
76:8 refer to feeding not medical treatment. Our earlier point was with 'reference to medical treatment by a doctor in war countries'
Therefore 76:8 is not a relevant verse to counter the original point.

When we take into account the whole context of the Quran and not one verse from the Mecca phase, the ethos and weight of the Quran is contempt and directing the utmost evil and violence upon the infidels especially the Muslims' striving in the cause of Allah [raiding and wars].
The relevant sword verses [300++] of various degree have been quoted many time here, so I will not waste time on it, but generally they have the following thrust.
33:61. Accursed, they [infidels] will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.
If infidels were taken prisoners in wars, they are for ransom, to be converted, taken as slaves and made subservient in all ways. There is no talk of good medical treatment for sick infidels. It is most likely the sick or wounded are dumped to the mortal fate.

Whatever positives from the manuals of Islamic jurisprudence, re medical practices on prisoners is likely influenced by pressure of Human Rights and the Hippocrates Oath and modern humane standards [War Crimes]. There is no precise standards directly from the Quran taken as a whole and its history.
Since there is no central authority in Islam, no one can decide otherwise on the 'sword verses' in the final chapters [chronological order] of the Quran.



Quote:
Your proposal is wrong because you ask muslims to count each good actions they do.

But i told you that we enter to Paradise by God's Mercy.

And i told you that we don't know what "score" will make us enter in this or that level/heaven in Paradise.

Plus, counting "points" means in a sense that you think you'll enter in Paradise, while i told you that even a muslim who do the maximum isn't sure to enter in it.

We already have many books concerning different subjects like what sins we should avoid, what good actions are the best etc ...
We already have that which comes from both the Quran & hadiths.
But the system of points we don't have it and i think it would be rejected by the majority of muslims.
It is very unfortunate in your psychological desperation that you simply throw counters for the sake of countering without giving any care for truths.
My point is the 'Score and Points' system is a universal method [not mine] that is used by all and even God as an efficient method of measure [mentally]. I cannot think of any better method, can you?
Even if God has mercy, there must be some basis for his mercy.
Note the following on how God would have approach it;
61:10. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Shall I show you a commerce [transaction, deal] that will save you [Muslims] from a painful doom? [i.e. a net gain on J-Day]
If God were to show a commerce to Muslims, surely there has to be some sort of bookkeeping, measurements and accounting. In the reckoning, God is very fair and just and will not be wrong in his computations of net gains or losses.
6:62. Then are they [Muslims] restored unto Allah, their Lord, the Just. Surely His is the judgment. And He is the most swift of reckoners.
3:25. How (will it be with them [infidels]) when We have brought them [infidels] all together to a Day of which there is no doubt, when every soul will be paid in full what it hath earned [good or evil], and they will not be wronged.
A Muslims can know what is necessary to be the best-in-conduct because whatever is to be shown is in the Perfected and Complete Quran.
I had mentioned, you may not know how the examiner will mark your exam paper but if you have done your work to your utmost best in accordance to the syllabus, you are likely to get higher marks than if you are not systematic in complying with the syllabus or studying the minimum.
A Muslim can adopt the same methodology is being a 'good' Muslim in accordance to the 'syllabus' of the Quran/Islam.

Yes, even a Muslims who think he has done the maximum cannot be absolute certain they will go to paradise, but they can be more certain than the Muslim who has done the minimum or the lazy one.





Quote:
33.21 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.

The hadiths help us for that and contain explanations of some verses, plus prophecies and others details concerning hell, paradise, the other prophets etc...
Yes, Muhammad is mentioned as the exemplar for all Muslims to follow as a guide.
However the overriding factor is whatever a Muslim refer to Muhammad's examples, it must conform to the verses in the Quran. If it does not conform to the Quran then it should be rejected.
Btw, Muhammad is a human being and thus vulnerable to sins, therefore Muhammad cannot be an absolute example.
I don't have the verses on hand, but in the Quran, Muhammad had requested by Allah to ask for forgiveness of his [Muhammad's] sins.
Since Muhammad is vulnerable to sin, whatever guidance related to Muhammad's life as obtained from the Hadiths must be subject to compliance with the Quran.
No matter how the Hadiths and experts argue and convince each other [e.g. the stoning verse for adultery] whatever is in the Hadiths cannot supercede, override or added to what is in the Quran.




Quote:
What you say is correct but you are describing people with a weak faith.
I don't know what to say about them, because when you believe in God you should strongly believe in Him. If the person in the first place don't really believe in Him and do acts of adoration (5 pilars) without great conviction, it's an other problem.
I don't have the right though to say they are not muslim because i don't know what is in the heart of people.
It's God who will juge about that. Because then if they aren't real believers even if they do a lot of good actions -like you said and make a list- i don't know what will happen to them.
Note I posted an OP, 'Believe is stronger than Surrender'
'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?

Although faith is necessary, it is not a matter of faith and weak faith in this case.
Allah implied 'believe' is more favorable than surrender [faith].
What is tied to 'believe' is related to 'men of understanding' 'people who has sense' and the likes.
'Men of understanding' know what is required of them in the Quran.
To know what is required, one has to read all the 6,236 verses, understand the essence of each verse and applied what is expected.
To do so effectively one has to use the 6,236 verses as a checklist and get a score.
I am sure the 'men of understanding' would have done the bookkeeping on a mental basis.

Now we have Microsoft 'Words' and 'Excel' and various database programs and thus we should use them to ensure efficiency.
Excellence and intelligence is a universal virtue but you seem not to appreciate nor use them in this case.


Quote:
Here what Allah said about people who did the minimum, who have not a lot of good actions, generally it's explained in tafsirs those people have 50/50 bad and good actions :


7.46 And between them will be a partition, and on [its] elevations are men who recognize all by their mark. And they call out to the companions of Paradise, "Peace be upon you." They have not [yet] entered it, but they long intensely.

7.47 And when their eyes are turned toward the companions of the Fire, they say, "Our Lord, do not place us with the wrongdoing people."

7.48 And the companions of the Elevations will call to men [within Hell] whom they recognize by their mark, saying, "Of no avail to you was your gathering and [the fact] that you were arrogant."

7.49 [ Allah will say], "Are these the ones whom you [inhabitants of Hell] swore that Allah would never offer them mercy? Enter Paradise, [O People of the Elevations]. No fear will there be concerning you, nor will you grieve."


Tafsir :



Al-A`raf's residents are those whose good and bad deeds are equal, as Hudhayfah, Ibn `Abbas, Ibn Mas`ud and several of the Salaf and later generations said.'' Ibn Jarir recorded that Hudhayfah was asked about the people of Al-A`raf and he said, "A people whose good and bad deeds are equal.

Their evil deeds prevented them from qualifying to enter Paradise, and their good deeds qualified them to avoid the Fire. Therefore, they are stopped there on the wall until Allah judges them.

Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The People of Al-A`raf


Like i told you those people are at risk. But they can enter in Paradise by Allah's Mercy.



I don't see the above presentation is effective to the point to decide who will go to paradise.
What is presented in your refer tafsir is kindergarten stuff.

What is critical on Decision Day is the following;
83:7. Nay, but the record of the vile [infidels] is in Sijjin

83:18. Nay, but the record of the righteous [Muslims] is in Iliyin
83:19. Ah, what will convey unto thee what Iliyin is!
83:20. A written record,
84:21. Attested by those [Muslims] who are brought near (unto their Lord).
What is final is, Allah would have based on the above two written records, the Sijjin and the Iliyin.
This two records would have listed the acts of the infidels and the Muslims.
What is listed can only be compared to what is in the Quran.

For example, there are many verses that exhort mankind not to ascribed partners to God.
Surely the record would have shown that the infidels did not comply with the prescribed verses in the Quran [where else].
Thus all the compliances and non-compliances by infidels or believers can only be referenced to what is in the Quran.
There are many verses in the Quran where God said he only punished those after they have been warned. Warned with what? it can only be the revealed Quran to Muhammad.

Therefore for God to judge whether a Muslim has done the minimal or his utmost best-in-conduct, God must have been used a comparison of listing of what was done in the Sijjin and Iliyin with what he had warned through the Quran.
Since God is supposed to be omnipotent, he has the mental power to do very quick comparisons between what he had revealed and what was acted by the infidels/Muslims.

Since humans are not as powerful as God, thus humans has to use the best available methods to assess whether to avoid doing the minimal and do their utmost best. The most efficient method is the universal checklist, points and score method [not mine].

Last edited by Continuum; 09-09-2015 at 10:58 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-09-2015, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note How To Read The Quran Effectively.
http://www.city-data.com/blogs/blog3...fectively.html

I don't see you deliberating this point in the context of a full spectrum as in my above blog post.

My current reading of the Quran is always from the chronological order [Noldeke's] and one will note 76:8 is of the early-middle Mecca phase where there is no emphasis on war with infidels. Pickthall translate that term as 'prisoner'. 'Captive' can also refer to slave. Thus 76:8 refer to prisoner or captive in general which could be due to imprisonment for various purposes, e.g. theft, murder, adultery, other crimes and not referring to prisoner of war specifically.
76:8 refer to feeding not medical treatment. Our earlier point was with 'reference to medical treatment by a doctor in war countries'
Therefore 76:8 is not a relevant verse to counter the original point.

When we take into account the whole context of the Quran and not one verse from the Mecca phase, the ethos and weight of the Quran is contempt and directing the utmost evil and violence upon the infidels especially the Muslims' striving in the cause of Allah [raiding and wars].
The relevant sword verses [300++] of various degree have been quoted many time here, so I will not waste time on it, but generally they have the following thrust.
33:61. Accursed, they [infidels] will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.
If infidels were taken prisoners in wars, they are for ransom, to be converted, taken as slaves and made subservient in all ways. There is no talk of good medical treatment for sick infidels. It is most likely the sick or wounded are dumped to the mortal fate.

Whatever positives from the manuals of Islamic jurisprudence, re medical practices on prisoners is likely influenced by pressure of Human Rights and the Hippocrates Oath and modern humane standards [War Crimes]. There is no precise standards directly from the Quran taken as a whole and its history.
Since there is no central authority in Islam, no one can decide otherwise on the 'sword verses' in the final chapters [chronological order] of the Quran.



It is very unfortunate in your psychological desperation that you simply throw counters for the sake of countering without giving any care for truths.
My point is the 'Score and Points' system is a universal method [not mine] that is used by all and even God as an efficient method of measure [mentally]. I cannot think of any better method, can you?
Even if God has mercy, there must be some basis for his mercy.
Note the following on how God would have approach it;
61:10. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Shall I show you a commerce [transaction, deal] that will save you [Muslims] from a painful doom? [i.e. a net gain on J-Day]
If God were to show a commerce to Muslims, surely there has to be some sort of bookkeeping, measurements and accounting. In the reckoning, God is very fair and just and will not be wrong in his computations of net gains or losses.
6:62. Then are they [Muslims] restored unto Allah, their Lord, the Just. Surely His is the judgment. And He is the most swift of reckoners.
3:25. How (will it be with them [infidels]) when We have brought them [infidels] all together to a Day of which there is no doubt, when every soul will be paid in full what it hath earned [good or evil], and they will not be wronged.
A Muslims can know what is necessary to be the best-in-conduct because whatever is to be shown is in the Perfected and Complete Quran.
I had mentioned, you may not know how the examiner will mark your exam paper but if you have done your work to your utmost best in accordance to the syllabus, you are likely to get higher marks than if you are not systematic in complying with the syllabus or studying the minimum.

Yes, even a Muslims who think he has done the maximum cannot be absolute certain they will go to paradise, but they can be more certain than the Muslim who has done the minimum or the lazy one.





Yes, Muhammad is mentioned as the exemplar for all Muslims to follow as a guide.
However the overriding factor is whatever a Muslim refer to Muhammad's examples, it must conform to the verses in the Quran. If it does not conform to the Quran then it should be rejected.
Btw, Muhammad is a human being and thus vulnerable to sins, therefore Muhammad cannot be an absolutely example.
I don't have the verse on hand, but in the Quran, Muhammad had requested by Allah to ask for forgiveness of his [Muhammad's] sins.
Since Muhammad is vulnerable to sin, whatever guidance related to Muhammad as obtained from the Hadiths must be subject to compliance with the Quran.
No matter how the Hadiths and experts argue and convince each other [e.g. the stoning verse for adultery] whatever is in the Hadiths cannot supercede, override or added to what is in the Quran.




Note I posted an OP, 'Believe is stronger than Surrender'
'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?

Although faith is necessary, it is not a matter of faith and weak faith in this case.
Allah implied 'believe' is more favorable than surrender [faith].
What is tied to 'believe' is related to 'men of understanding' 'people who has sense' and the likes.
'Men of understanding' know what is required of them in the Quran.
To know what is required, one has to read all the 6,236 verses, understand the essence of each verse and applied what is expected.
To do so effectively one has to use the 6,236 verses as a checklist and get a score.
I am sure the 'men of understanding' would have done the bookkeeping on a mental basis.

Now we have Microsoft 'Words' and 'Excel' and various database programs and thus we should use them to ensure efficiency.
Excellence and intelligence is a universal virtue but you seem not to appreciate nor use them in this case.


I don't see the above presentation is effective to the point to decide who will go to paradise.
What is presented in your refer tafsir is kindergarten stuff.

What is critical on Decision Day is the following;
83:7. Nay, but the record of the vile [infidels] is in Sijjin

83:18. Nay, but the record of the righteous [Muslims] is in Iliyin
83:19. Ah, what will convey unto thee what Iliyin is!
83:20. A written record,
84:21. Attested by those [Muslims] who are brought near (unto their Lord).
What is final is, Allah would have based on the above two written records, the Sijjin and the Iliyin.
This two records would have listed the acts of the infidels and the Muslims.
What is listed can only be compared to what is in the Quran.

For example, there are many verses that exhort mankind not to ascribed partners to God.
Surely the record would have shown that the infidels did not comply with the prescribed verses in the Quran [where else].
Thus all the compliances and non-compliances by infidels or believers can only be referenced to what is in the Quran.
There are many verses in the Quran where God said he only punished those after they have been warned. Warned with what? it can only be the revealed Quran to Muhammad.

Therefore for God to judge whether a Muslim has done the minimal or his utmost best-in-conduct, God must have been used a comparison of listing of what was done in the Sijjin and Iliyin with what he had warned through the Quran.
Since God is supposed to be omnipotent, he has the mental power to do very quick comparisons between what he had revealed and what was acted by the infidels/Muslims.

Since humans are not as powerful as God, thus humans has to use the best available methods to assess whether to avoid doing the minimal and do their utmost best. The most efficient method is the universal checklist, points and score method [not mine].
It seems that calls for 2 assumptions.

1. The Qur'an is a book of commands

2. The Qur'an is unique and the only warnings ever given to mankind.


Very little of the Qur'an is commands it is primarily examples, affirmation of past revelations, description of Events that occured while the Qur'an was being revealed.

It is not an original revelation, every message and warning contained in the Qur'an was revealed in past revelations those we know of are the Torah, Book of Psalms and the Gospel of Jesus.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-09-2015, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It seems that calls for 2 assumptions.

1. The Qur'an is a book of commands
2. The Qur'an is unique and the only warnings ever given to mankind.

Very little of the Qur'an is commands it is primarily examples, affirmation of past revelations, description of Events that occured while the Qur'an was being revealed.

It is not an original revelation, every message and warning contained in the Qur'an was revealed in past revelations those we know of are the Torah, Book of Psalms and the Gospel of Jesus.
We have gone through the 'command' issue many times. I am not assuming but it is an imperative that the Quran itself is a command or in other words, duty, law, mandate, order, regulation, rule, obligation, must be followed, etc. that are closely synonymous to 'command.'
30% [appx.] of the Quran are eschatological doctrines which must be followed and another 30% [appx] are Biblical stories to support these doctrines which must be followed without exceptions thus such are equivalent to commands, imperatives, duty, rule, laws.

If you understand the general meaning of 'command' you will note the whole of Quran itself represent a "command" in one general sense to a Muslim.
Command | Define Command at Dictionary.com
6:153. And (He commandeth you, saying) : This is My straight path, so follow it, Follow not other ways [infidels'], lest ye be parted from His way: This hath He ordained for you, that ye may ward off (evil).

Pickthall put 'commandeth' in parenthesis but the verse itself meant the whole of the Quran [the Straight Path] must be followed without exception as said [commanded[ by Allah.
There are many verses that exhort believer to obey Allah and obey the Prophet. What else do they have to obey [arising from a general command] other than the Quran as a whole.

As for the verses themselves, there are many that are 'command' as a direct 'order' to follow specific orders. I am aware there are many. To be objective I will make and attempt to count them.

So don't bring up this 'assumption Quran is a book of command' again. This is a command [joke].

Nah, what the Quran claimed is there is an original Quran [still with God] and was revealed orally to past prophets but it is not represented by the corrupted written Torah and Gospel that is present today. What is revealed by Muhammad is in accordance to the original pristine 'Quran' to bring LIGHT to the darkened written Torah and Gospel. This is why Islam/Muslims never relied on the written Torah used by the Jews and the Gospel used by the Christians as the final Quran.

The truth is God is an impossibility and there was no God-given-Quran at all. What happened was Muhammad plagiarized the stories from Torah and Gospel to compile the Quran as it is.

Last edited by Continuum; 09-10-2015 at 12:00 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-11-2015, 08:28 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,339 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Excellent replies, you have given very clear explanations. Jazakallah Khayran (May Allah grant you more. than what you have given)
Allah ikhalik

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

My current reading of the Quran is always from the chronological order [Noldeke's] and one will note 76:8 is of the early-middle Mecca phase where there is no emphasis on war with infidels. Pickthall translate that term as 'prisoner'. 'Captive' can also refer to slave. Thus 76:8 refer to prisoner or captive in general which could be due to imprisonment for various purposes, e.g. theft, murder, adultery, other crimes and not referring to prisoner of war specifically.
76:8 refer to feeding not medical treatment. Our earlier point was with 'reference to medical treatment by a doctor in war countries'
Therefore 76:8 is not a relevant verse to counter the original point.

Of course, who cares about what said the Prophet and how the companions and other followers applied the Law ?

Not a problem if we don't understand the context of some verses (like concerning Badr or other battles).

Don't matter if we don't know who is who Abu Talib, Abu Lahab, Abu Sofyan) etc ...

And by the way, how do you know in which time the sourates were given (mecca or medina) .... don't tell me by the help of the hadiths

Maybe i should make a research to see what other subjects you talked about and if you have only used the Quran.

Because i don't understand why i should reject hadiths like what said Muhammad about good/bad actions, how we should be with a prisoner, hell & paradise etc but i have to accept those who explain other subjects.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
33:61. Accursed, they [infidels] will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.
Why ignoring the verse 60 ?

33.60 If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors in al-Madinah do not cease, We will surely incite you against them; then they will not remain your neighbors therein except for a little.


TAFSIR :

Then Allah issues a warning to the hypocrites, those who make an outward display of faith while concealing their disbelief,

(those in whose hearts is a disease,) `Ikrimah and others said that this refers to adulterers in this instance.

(and those who spread false news among the people in Al-Madinah) means, those who say that the enemy has come and war has started, which is a lie and a fabrication. Unless they give up these actions and return to the truth,


Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - A Stern Warning to the Evil Hypocrites


Other Tafsir :

“Having diseased hearts” points to two kinds of evils:


(1) That a person should be an ill-wisher of Islam and the Muslims although he gets himself counted among the Muslims;


(2) That he should be cherishing evil intentions and having criminal mentality and his evil tendencies be manifesting themselves in everything he thinks and does.


(3) This implies the people who, in order to cause panic among the Muslims and to lower their morale, used to spread rumors in Al-Madinah to the effect that the Muslims had suffered such and such serious setback, that a huge army was gathering together against them at such and such a place, that Al-Madinah was under threat of a sudden attack, etc.


Besides this, they had another pastime. They would concoct and spread imaginary stories about the domestic life of the Prophet’s (peace be upon him) household and of other Muslims so as to produce suspicions among the common people and destroy the moral influence of the Muslims.



Surah 33. Al-Ahzab, Ayat 60-61



The infidels here are clealy identified not only as simple disbelievers but people who want to harm muslim.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-11-2015, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Of course, who cares about what said the Prophet and how the companions and other followers applied the Law ?

Not a problem if we don't understand the context of some verses (like concerning Badr or other battles).

Don't matter if we don't know who is who Abu Talib, Abu Lahab, Abu Sofyan) etc ...

And by the way, how do you know in which time the sourates were given (mecca or medina) .... don't tell me by the help of the hadiths

Maybe i should make a research to see what other subjects you talked about and if you have only used the Quran.

Because i don't understand why i should reject hadiths like what said Muhammad about good/bad actions, how we should be with a prisoner, hell & paradise etc but i have to accept those who explain other subjects.
As I have been discussing in other thread, what is primary and critical is the covenant [spiritual contract] a Muslim had entered with Allah.
The Quran is The Covenant [Spiritual Contract]?

I am sure you understand what a 'contract' in general requires.
Basically in a contract there must be 'fixed' terms agreed by both parties at the time the contract is signed and sealed.
Now where else can a Muslim adopt the terms and conditions other than from the Quran, the revealed words of God through Gabriel and Muhammad.

"sourates" not sure what is this. Whatever it is, the dictates surrounding it must be guided by the Quran.



Quote:
Why ignoring the verse 60 ?

33.60 If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors in al-Madinah do not cease, We will surely incite you against them; then they will not remain your neighbors therein except for a little.


TAFSIR :

Then Allah issues a warning to the hypocrites, those who make an outward display of faith while concealing their disbelief, (those in whose hearts is a disease,) `Ikrimah and others said that this refers to adulterers in this instance.

(and those who spread false news among the people in Al-Madinah) means, those who say that the enemy has come and war has started, which is a lie and a fabrication. Unless they give up these actions and return to the truth,

Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - A Stern Warning to the Evil Hypocrites


Other Tafsir :

“Having diseased hearts” points to two kinds of evils:
(1) That a person should be an ill-wisher of Islam and the Muslims although he gets himself counted among the Muslims;
(2) That he should be cherishing evil intentions and having criminal mentality and his evil tendencies be manifesting themselves in everything he thinks and does.
(3) This implies the people who, in order to cause panic among the Muslims and to lower their morale, used to spread rumors in Al-Madinah to the effect that the Muslims had suffered such and such serious setback, that a huge army was gathering together against them at such and such a place, that Al-Madinah was under threat of a sudden attack, etc.

Besides this, they had another pastime. They would concoct and spread imaginary stories about the domestic life of the Prophet’s (peace be upon him) household and of other Muslims so as to produce suspicions among the common people and destroy the moral influence of the Muslims.

Surah 33. Al-Ahzab, Ayat 60-61

The Quran is not merely a book of stories which must be only relevant to a certain time and location.
The stories, parables, etc. are there to enable the Quran to convey the Principles that is applicable to a Muslim as contracted in the covenant.
In all cases we should read whatever is necessary in the Quran to support the 'Principle.'
In this case I agree 33:61 is part of the 'Principle' and provided the conditions, i.e.

Principle [33:60-61]: Infidels will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter, if the infidels do not cease to spread rumours [that are threats to Islam and Muslims].

Btw, I did not say Muslims [those who agree with the Hadiths] must ignore the Hadiths and other related texts. I have been saying the Hadiths can only be used as a guide but the expositions therein MUST comply with the Quran.
On this point, there are many hadiths that expound Principle [33:60-61] and recommend such a Principle and that Muslims should act accordingly where the circumstances of 33:60-61 occur at any time and any where.

Quote:
Maybe i should make a research to see what other subjects you talked about and if you have only used the Quran.

[The infidels here are clealy identified not only as simple disbelievers but people who want to harm muslim.]
You have to be specific here as to who you are referring to.

In my case, all the points and critiques I have been posting are based on facts, truths and whatever is as written in the Quran, the revealed words of God to Muhammad. If I have posted untruths, then I am wrong.
If I had interpret the verses wrongly or relied on wrong interpretations from others, then I am willing to correct them to what should be right. Show me one wrong interpretations I have done?

Note I said the Quran as the words of Allah is the final arbiter, thus the Hadiths, Sira, etc. [expositions and words of man] do not have any divine authority to override the words of God.

It is said 'truth hurts.' But in the long terms it is good for all of humanity. The truths must always prevails.

Last edited by Continuum; 09-12-2015 at 12:27 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-11-2015, 11:59 PM
 
4,413 posts, read 1,642,332 times
Reputation: 1529
Funny that Continuum is worried about others, and using Quran as his basis to figure out how they will be "graded", but he conveniently ignores to see how he himself will be

"graded" in the light of the same Quran Chapter 99, versus 6,7,8.

These versus are not only specific to Muslims but to all mankind.

There will be nowhere to run and nowhere to hide on that day.

As the saying goes, "Ab tera kia hoga kaaliya"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-12-2015, 12:22 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Funny that Continuum is worried about others, and using Quran as his basis to figure out how they will be "graded", but he conveniently ignores to see how he himself will be

"graded" in the light of the same Quran Chapter 99, versus 6,7,8.

These versus are not only specific to Muslims but to all mankind.

There will be nowhere to run and nowhere to hide on that day.

As the saying goes, "Ab tera kia hoga kaaliya"?

I mentioned earlier, 'When in Rome, do what the Romans do'
I am not in 'Rome' is this case.

My point:
1. God is an impossibility to be real.
2. Quran is from God
3. Therefore the Quran is an impossibility to be real to have any real effect on me as a real person.

A Muslim by definition is one who had entered into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah.
Therefore a Muslim must comply with all that is in the Quran, i.e. the words of Allah as revealed to Muhammad.
Since I am not a Muslim, the principles has no real effect on me regardless of what the Quran said within its own confine in an unreal circumstances.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-12-2015, 12:33 AM
 
4,413 posts, read 1,642,332 times
Reputation: 1529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

I mentioned earlier, 'When in Rome, do what the Romans do'
I am not in 'Rome' is this case.

My point:
1. God is an impossibility to be real.
2. Quran is from God
3. Therefore the Quran is an impossibility to be real to have any real effect on me as a real person.

A Muslim by definition is one who had entered into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah.
Therefore a Muslim must comply with all that is in the Quran, i.e. the words of Allah as revealed to Muhammad.
Since I am not a Muslim, the principles has no real effect on me regardless of what the Quran said within its own confine in an unreal circumstances.
lol ... and you still worry SO MUCH about Muslims?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-12-2015, 12:48 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
lol ... and you still worry SO MUCH about Muslims?
I am NOT worry about you, Fazira or Woodrow and many other Muslims but SOME from a potential pool of 20% i.e. 300 million Muslims at even 10% or down to 1% that is still frightening.

What is this? [26,863]


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/TROP.jpg

On 7 Aug 2015 the figure was 26,517!
Note the increase of 346 within a month!
http://www.city-data.com/forum/40587835-post711.html


The fact is at present there is a great possibility, I or non-Muslims could be killed anywhere around the world by SOME Muslims who are inspired by SOME evil laden texts from the Quran and its expositions.
Note the recent bombing in Bangkok. I have taken photographs standing exactly on that spot where the bomb was placed while snapping Buddhists freeing birds from cages.

Now such terror can happen anywhere, a Muzeum somewhere, a beach, a cafeteria, a supermarket, office, and practically anywhere!

Btw, I noted in many such incidents, Muslims are identified by jihadists asking them to say certain Quranic verses and these Muslims are not killed. What are these verses?
I think it would be a good strategy for non-Muslims to learn this verse by hard so they can pretend to be Muslims [Tagiyya] at least for this purpose to save their life.[/quote]I am serious on this.

Anyone?

Last edited by Continuum; 09-12-2015 at 02:17 AM.. Reason: 'not'
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top