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Old 08-26-2015, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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There are many verses which state that a Muslim's performance in this World will be graded and rewards/punishments will be accorded justly by Allah. Here is one example;
3:163. There are degrees (of grace and reprobation) with Allah, and Allah is Seer of what ye do.

In addition, Muslims are exhorted to compete and race with one another to their best conduct to vie for the highest honors;
56:10 And the foremost [of Muslims] in the race, the foremost in the race: ..

I don't see a specific detailed criteria in the Quran to show how a Muslim should perform the test to ensure they get the best grades to become a First Class Honor Muslim.

The difference in marks achieved may contribute to the difference between waiting for another 50,000 years or more before one get to paradise.

So what do you think an individual Muslim should do to get the most grade?


My proposals of Measuring the Degree of Muslim-ness:
1. List all the 6236 verses in a column as a checklist.
2. Tick off the verses one has complied with
3. For each verse, rate the degree of compliance from 1-Low to 10-highest.

Results:
1. Count the number of verses complied.
The greater the number the higher will be one's rank.

2. Add up the total points (TP) achieved according to the ratings.
The whole total is 6,236 x 10 = 62,360
Divide the TP by 62,360 to get a %.
The higher the %, the better Muslims one will be.

3. The above a rather crude measurements.
To obtain greater accuracy one should add weightings to each verse in terms of criticalness of what it need to be a Muslim.

4. Other methods ?? What are your methods of rating?


What do you think your score will be?

Last edited by Continuum; 08-26-2015 at 11:34 PM..
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Old 08-27-2015, 05:18 AM
 
116 posts, read 67,423 times
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What do you think your score will be? Que sera, sera..what will be, will be....God is the best of Judges.

If we are to propose that the purpose of religion(way of life) is guidance for the benefit of humanity---and leads to peace in our inner self, in our wider relationships and groupings, and in the afterlife.....then there are two simple formulas....

Paradise = Fitra (inherent goodness of humanity) + Right belief (Tawheed=Unity) + Right intentions (Taqwa=Love/awe of God) + Right actions (Ibadah=worship)
or
Paradise = Repentence/Reform - Wrong belief (Shirk=Division) - wrong intentions (Ungratefulness) - wrong actions (Fitna=discord)

The Quran is a book of Guidance and contains much wisdom for example, Surah 2 verses 2-6

2. This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -
3. Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,
4. And who believe in what has been revealed to you, and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain.
5. Those are on guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful.
6. Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

Shows what it means to have "Taqwa"---but for those for whom this is too abstract a concept, the Quran also gives pragmatic advice...Surah 90:12-20

What can tell you of the steep path?
to free a slave
to feed the destitute on a day of hunger
a kinsman, orphan, or a stranger out of luck, in need
be of those who keep the faith
who counsel one another to patience
who counsel to compassion
they are of the right
as for those who cast our signs away
they are of the left
over them a vault of fire

Tawheed (Unity) promotes equality and brotherhood which leads to justice and thus to peace.
Altruism (to do for God) promotes selflessness which leads to happiness and thus peace.
To follow Islam is to move towards peace, and the path that leads to peace, leads towards God....
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Old 08-27-2015, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are many verses which state that a Muslim's performance in this World will be graded and rewards/punishments will be accorded justly by Allah. Here is one example;
3:163. There are degrees (of grace and reprobation) with Allah, and Allah is Seer of what ye do.

In addition, Muslims are exhorted to compete and race with one another to their best conduct to vie for the highest honors;
56:10 And the foremost [of Muslims] in the race, the foremost in the race: ..

I don't see a specific detailed criteria in the Quran to show how a Muslim should perform the test to ensure they get the best grades to become a First Class Honor Muslim.

The difference in marks achieved may contribute to the difference between waiting for another 50,000 years or more before one get to paradise.

So what do you think an individual Muslim should do to get the most grade?


My proposals of Measuring the Degree of Muslim-ness:
1. List all the 6236 verses in a column as a checklist.
2. Tick off the verses one has complied with
3. For each verse, rate the degree of compliance from 1-Low to 10-highest.

Results:
1. Count the number of verses complied.
The greater the number the higher will be one's rank.

2. Add up the total points (TP) achieved according to the ratings.
The whole total is 6,236 x 10 = 62,360
Divide the TP by 62,360 to get a %.
The higher the %, the better Muslims one will be.

3. The above a rather crude measurements.
To obtain greater accuracy one should add weightings to each verse in terms of criticalness of what it need to be a Muslim.

4. Other methods ?? What are your methods of rating?


What do you think your score will be?
For beginners the Qur'an is not a book of commands. there are very few things in the Qur'an that can be considered a command for all people of all eras.

When one reads at least a few lines of the discourse, one should be able to understand what the discourse is about and have an idea as to what 3:163 is about

Quote:
Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) - 3:160

If Allah is your helper none can overcome you, and if He withdraw His help from you, who is there who can help you? In Allah let believers put their trust. - 3:160 (Picktall)



Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) - 3:161

It is not for any Prophet to deceive (mankind). Whoso deceiveth will bring his deceit with him on the Day of Resurrection. Then every soul will be paid in full what it hath earned; and they will not be wronged. - 3:161 (Picktall)



Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) - 3:162

Is one who followeth the pleasure of Allah as one who hath earned condemnation from Allah, whose habitation is the Fire, a hapless journey's end? - 3:162 (Picktall)



Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) - 3:163

There are degrees (of grace and reprobation) with Allah, and Allah is Seer of what ye do. - 3:163 (Picktall)



Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) - 3:164

Allah verily hath shown grace to the believers by sending unto them a messenger of their own who reciteth unto them His revelations, and causeth them to grow, and teacheth them the Scripture and wisdom; although before (he came to them ) they were in flagrant error. - 3:164 (Picktall)



Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) - 3:165

And was it so, when a disaster smote you, though ye had smitten (them with a disaster) twice (as great), that ye said: How is this? Say (unto them, O Muhammad): It is from yourselves. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things. - 3:165 (Picktall)
3:163 when read as a stand alone statement makes very little sense.

similar with 56:10

When the event befalleth. - 56:1 (Picktall)
There is no denying that it will befall - 56:2 (Picktall)
Abasing (some), exalting (others); - 56:3 (Picktall)
When the earth is shaken with a shock - 56:4 (Picktall)
And the hills are ground to powder - 56:5 (Picktall)
So that they become a scattered dust, - 56:6 (Picktall)
And ye will be three kinds: - 56:7 (Picktall)
(First) those on the right hand; what of those on the right hand? - 56:8 (Picktall)
And (then) those on the left hand; what of those on the left hand? - 56:9 (Picktal
And the foremost in the race, the foremost in the race: - 56:10 (Picktall)
Those are they who will be brought nigh - 56:11 (Picktall)
In gardens of delight; - 56:12 (Picktall)
A multitude of those of old - 56:13 (Picktall)
And a few of those of later time - 56:14 (Picktall)

Actually the word race is ambiguous, can not tell if pickthall is referring to the Human race or a competition or something else

Asad and Ali give better interpretations


TRANSLITERATION: Waalssabiqoona alssabiqoona - 56-10

But the foremost shall be [they who in life were] the foremost [in faith and good works]: - 56:10 (Asad)

And those Foremost (in Faith) will be Foremost (in the Hereafter). - 56:10 (Y. Ali)

While "Waalssabiqoona alssabiqoona" can be translated into a direct word for word translation word for word it translates as "and the foremost the foremost" or "but the foremost the foremost" wa means both "but" and "and"
A good example that Arabic does not translate very well into English. What is required is an interpretation but an interpretation is an opinion and the interpretation is only as good as the writer's opinion.

I am somewhat partial to Asad. He is a Former Jew who is fluent in Hebrew and Arabic and has a very good understanding of the thought processes of the Semitic languages.

Before you start Hollering"If the Qur'an is perfect, why didn't Allaah (swt) make it understandable to all people and languages."

But he did just that. There is much repetition of the Message worded in numerous ways. If a person does not understand one way, they can still find what they will understand. Quite easy to become aware the Qur'an is telling us: "There is only one God(swt) and only he is worthy of worship"

The Qur'an is very simple and could have been written with a single sentence: "There is only one God(swt) and only he is worthy of worship" That basically is the entire Qur'an. Reiterated in 114 different forms, one of which will be understood even if a person can not understand the other 113.
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Old 08-27-2015, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
What do you think your score will be? Que sera, sera..what will be, will be....God is the best of Judges.

If we are to propose that the purpose of religion(way of life) is guidance for the benefit of humanity---and leads to peace in our inner self, in our wider relationships and groupings, and in the afterlife.....then there are two simple formulas....

Paradise = Fitra (inherent goodness of humanity) + Right belief (Tawheed=Unity) + Right intentions (Taqwa=Love/awe of God) + Right actions (Ibadah=worship)
or
Paradise = Repentence/Reform - Wrong belief (Shirk=Division) - wrong intentions (Ungratefulness) - wrong actions (Fitna=discord)

The Quran is a book of Guidance and contains much wisdom for example, Surah 2 verses 2-6

2. This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -
3. Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,
4. And who believe in what has been revealed to you, and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain.
5. Those are on guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful.
6. Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

Shows what it means to have "Taqwa"---but for those for whom this is too abstract a concept, the Quran also gives pragmatic advice...Surah 90:12-20

What can tell you of the steep path?
to free a slave
to feed the destitute on a day of hunger
a kinsman, orphan, or a stranger out of luck, in need
be of those who keep the faith
who counsel one another to patience
who counsel to compassion
they are of the right
as for those who cast our signs away
they are of the left
over them a vault of fire

Tawheed (Unity) promotes equality and brotherhood which leads to justice and thus to peace.
Altruism (to do for God) promotes selflessness which leads to happiness and thus peace.
To follow Islam is to move towards peace, and the path that leads to peace, leads towards God....
As a Muslims and human, I don't think you are in a position to decide what is right based on your above which is a personal interpretation.

The Quran is supposed to be perfected as 100% complete and delivered from Allah via Gabriel recited by Muhammad to be delivered to mankind.

Que Sera Sera ....?? there is a danger you may missed the mark!
The question is how do you know what you proposed above is fully accounted for within the 114 chapters.
Non-compliance of some elements may delay your journey to paradise by hundreds of thousand of years [given 1 day in heaven = 50,000 earth years].

Therefore the greater assurance you have to start from the complete 100% 6236 verses of 114 chapters to ensure there is no omission.
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Old 08-27-2015, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
For beginners the Qur'an is not a book of commands.
The Quran is not 100% commands but there are commands in the Quran.
For a Muslim to be a truer Muslim, s/he has to obey/comply every command stipulated in the Quran as much a possible.
The phrase 'obey Allah and obey the Messenger' is very prevalent in the Quran.

Quote:
there are very few things in the Qur'an that can be considered a command for all
people of all eras.
This is the clue why the Quran was authored by a man or compiled by a group of men during a specific area and NOT by a supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omni-whatever God. A God if it exists would never have presented the Quran in its current messed up format.
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Old 08-27-2015, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Reputation: 461
3:163. There are degrees (of grace and reprobation) with Allah, and Allah is Seer of what ye do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
3:163 when read as a stand alone statement makes very little sense.
True.

However if one read the Quran fully one will note Allah adopt meritocracy on Judgment Day.
The degree of a Muslim's performance is taken into account.

4:96. Degrees of rank from Him [Allah], and forgiveness and mercy. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

6:132. For all there will be ranks [degrees] from what they did Thy Lord is not unaware of what they [infidels] do.

46:19. And for ALL [jinn & mankind] there will be ranks from what they do, that He may pay them for their deeds! and they will not be wronged.

There are many similar verses of the same context within the whole of the Quran.
You missed them [these truths] because you have a different focus.

I am going through the Quran and paying attention to every nuances.
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Old 08-27-2015, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
similar with 56:10

When the event befalleth. - 56:1 (Picktall)
There is no denying that it will befall - 56:2 (Picktall)
Abasing (some), exalting (others); - 56:3 (Picktall)
When the earth is shaken with a shock - 56:4 (Picktall)
And the hills are ground to powder - 56:5 (Picktall)
So that they become a scattered dust, - 56:6 (Picktall)

And ye will be three kinds: - 56:7 (Picktall)
(First) those on the right hand; what of those on the right hand? - 56:8 (Picktall)

And (then) those on the left hand; what of those on the left hand? - 56:9 (Picktal

And the foremost in the race, the foremost in the race: - 56:10 (Picktall)

Those are they who will be brought nigh - 56:11 (Picktall)
In gardens of delight; - 56:12 (Picktall)
A multitude of those of old - 56:13 (Picktall)
And a few of those of later time - 56:14 (Picktall)

Actually the word race is ambiguous, can not tell if pickthall is referring to the Human race or a competition or something else

Asad and Ali give better interpretations


TRANSLITERATION: Waalssabiqoona alssabiqoona - 56-10

But the foremost shall be [they who in life were] the foremost [in faith and good works]: - 56:10 (Asad)

And those Foremost (in Faith) will be Foremost (in the Hereafter). - 56:10 (Y. Ali)

While "Waalssabiqoona alssabiqoona" can be translated into a direct word for word translation word for word it translates as "and the foremost the foremost" or "but the foremost the foremost" wa means both "but" and "and"
A good example that Arabic does not translate very well into English. What is required is an interpretation but an interpretation is an opinion and the interpretation is only as good as the writer's opinion.
What I have presented is exactly within context of the Quran.

Foremost: = first in place, order, rank, etc.:

Note the following verses;
1.Those who are foremost are rewarded according to v11-26.
2. The others in the right hand are rewarded lesser re v28-40

The difference between 1 and 2 above indicate ranking and competition [re v3:163], 57:21 and the likes;

57:21. [O ye Muslims] Race one with another for forgiveness from your Lord and a Garden whereof the breadth is as the breadth of the heavens and the earth, which is in store for those [Muslims] who believe in Allah and His messengers. Such is the bounty of Allah, which He bestoweth upon whom He will, and Allah is of infinite bounty. [Winners mentioned in 56:10] [Sabiqoo ila maghfiratin ...]


I am surprised as a Muslim you have missed out the above essential elements.


Quote:
I am somewhat partial to Asad. He is a Former Jew who is fluent in Hebrew and Arabic and has a very good understanding of the thought processes of the Semitic languages.

Before you start Hollering"If the Qur'an is perfect, why didn't Allaah (swt) make it understandable to all people and languages."

But he did just that. There is much repetition of the Message worded in numerous ways. If a person does not understand one way, they can still find what they will understand. Quite easy to become aware the Qur'an is telling us: "There is only one God(swt) and only he is worthy of worship"

The Qur'an is very simple and could have been written with a single sentence: "There is only one God(swt) and only he is worthy of worship" That basically is the entire Qur'an. Reiterated in 114 different forms, one of which will be understood even if a person can not understand the other 113.
If you are partial to Asad, they you are a partial Muslim or rather a Asad-led-Muslim.

As for me, I make reference to appx 50 [FIFTY] English translations of the Quran. Many of these are expert in Arabic.
In addition I cross-check whatever is in the Quran [as translated] with a full range of known human knowledge.

If you said there are repetitions, you should have been aware the concept of degrees or ranking plus competing and vying to be the best Muslims is all over the Quran. Instead you are questioning my interpretation of it.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-27-2015 at 09:19 PM..
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Old 08-28-2015, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Reputation: 461
A Muslim is solely defined and conditioned by all that is in the Quran.
Thus to be the best Muslim in the 'eyes' of God one MUST comply with whatever is stipulated in the Quran.

My proposals of Measuring the Degree of Muslim-ness:
1. List all the 6236 verses in a column as a checklist.
2. Tick off the verses one has complied with
3. For each verse, rate the degree of compliance from 1-Low to 10-highest.

See OP for details.

From my research on the basis of the above ratings, the jihadists and the fundamental Muslims are the more truer Muslims than the moderate Muslims.
As such the fundamentalist Muslims will gain more Islamic merits in accordance to the Quran than the moderate Muslims when they are judged in the hereafter.

However the greater truth for the moderate Muslims is they are better human beings when they compromise much of the scores [violent elements] in the checklist of the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
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Old 08-28-2015, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A Muslim is solely defined and conditioned by all that is in the Quran.
Thus to be the best Muslim in the 'eyes' of God one MUST comply with whatever is stipulated in the Quran.

My proposals of Measuring the Degree of Muslim-ness:
1. List all the 6236 verses in a column as a checklist.
2. Tick off the verses one has complied with
3. For each verse, rate the degree of compliance from 1-Low to 10-highest.

See OP for details.

From my research on the basis of the above ratings, the jihadists and the fundamental Muslims are the more truer Muslims than the moderate Muslims.
As such the fundamentalist Muslims will gain more Islamic merits in accordance to the Quran than the moderate Muslims when they are judged in the hereafter.

However the greater truth for the moderate Muslims is they are better human beings when they compromise much of the scores [violent elements] in the checklist of the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
In reference to:

Quote:
From my research on the basis of the above ratings, the jihadists and the fundamental Muslims are the more truer Muslims than the moderate Muslims.
As such the fundamentalist Muslims will gain more Islamic merits in accordance to the Quran than the moderate Muslims when they are judged in the hereafter.
True we will all be judged and we will all receive rewards and Punishments in accordance with what we have earned. All of our good deeds will be rewarded, including those of an Atheist and all evil deeds will be punished even those done by a Muslim.

we do not even no who is a Muslim. We can only see the physical actions, but even a non-Muslim could perform the actions.

We do not really know the criteria Alaah(swt) will judge us by, we are only told it will be fair and just. But somethings we do know is we will only be judged for that we do of our own free will and our ability to do so with full knowledge of the consequences.

In regards to your Judgement criteris, you will be hard pressed to fing many Muslims who will agree with for several reasons:

1. Only Allaah(swt) Knows how he will judge.

2. very few if any ayyats are commands. the vast majority are relating to specific instances done by specific people at a specific time.

3. The Qur'an does not teach a person how ti perform Islam.
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Old 08-28-2015, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In reference to:

True we will all be judged and we will all receive rewards and Punishments in accordance with what we have earned. All of our good deeds will be rewarded, including those of an Atheist and all evil deeds will be punished even those done by a Muslim.

we do not even no who is a Muslim. We can only see the physical actions, but even a non-Muslim could perform the actions.

We do not really know the criteria Alaah(swt) will judge us by, we are only told it will be fair and just. But somethings we do know is we will only be judged for that we do of our own free will and our ability to do so with full knowledge of the consequences.

In regards to your Judgement criteris, you will be hard pressed to fing many Muslims who will agree with for several reasons:

1. Only Allaah(swt) Knows how he will judge.

2. very few if any ayyats are commands. the vast majority are relating to specific instances done by specific people at a specific time.

3. The Qur'an does not teach a person how ti perform Islam.
I am not a Muslim but from the thoroughness of attention I have given to the Quran so far [still reading it everyday for many hours] I dare say you do not seem to know to be a better and truer Muslims.

I suggest you reread the Quran line by line with a fine-toothed comb and you will be able to understand what Allah wants from Muslims and how they should approach Islam as Allah intend it to be.

Note Allah asserted the Quran is delivered as Perfect, Complete and easy to understand. [presume you are aware of the said verses].

I raised the OP 'Believe more superior than Submit'.
'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?

Submit mean simply surrender which anyone can do emotionally and psychologically. This was what happened in your case, i.e. you submitted instead of 'believe' initially. [This is very common with converts] Then you develop your belief subsequently and progressively. Until you take account of the 6,236 verses, grasp their essence and comply you will not be a First Class Muslim.

'Believe' relate to 'men of understanding'
Men of Understanding?
Believe require a high level of personal conviction based on the relevant knowledge with full reference to whatever is in the Quran.

I mentioned 'men of understanding' in the context of the Quran meant one who have the full understanding of the Quran [not general knowledge] and its elements, principles, commands, instructions and whatever that a Muslim need to do to the 'best' Muslim in the eyes of Allah.

To ensure one performs one's best one imperative need to use the 6236 verses and a checklist and ensure full [as best as possible] compliance.

How do you know the Quran contain few commands?
Have you review and counted them?
From what I read many of the verses [thousands] are command of varying nature.
I will take this as a part of my project and analyze them and present them objectively.

Other than the thousands of commands [yet to be confirmed by me objectively] what is critical are the principles of what it take to be a good Muslim.
The Quran for example command Muslims not to be friendly [as auliyaa] as intimate friend, and as casual friend to non-Muslims [even if they are parents, brethren and relative]. Therefore to be a very good Muslim [even if it is hateful to one] one has to adopt such an attitude.
Note the critical principle and fundamental of the very primal malignant 'us versus them' that is adopted as a critical element of being a Muslim [us] versus non-Muslim [them]. If you do not inculcate such and stir this impulse, then you are not a good Muslims and thus score less points.

Besides the core, there are many other principles and elements in the Quran. To account for them we have to survey all of the 6,236 verses in the Quran.

Quote:
3. The Qur'an does not teach a person how to perform Islam.
I have read enough of the Quran to say you are insulting your own Quran and therefrom Allah. I suggest you retract this.
The critical element here is not "how to perform Islam" but what are the principles and elements that need to be adopted by Muslim to be a True Muslim.
Whilst the Quran lack the details which is expected of a policy and principle manual, there are sufficient core principles, various necessary principles, commands, examples, parables, etc, to enable a Muslim to be a true full fledge Muslim within the conditions of the Quran.

My next project:
I will review and compare the fundamentalist's compliance against each of the 6,236 verses of the Quran against those by the moderate Muslims, the mystic Muslims and other Muslims.
I will include weightages and degrees of compliance for each verse of the 6,236 verses of the Quran.

My Hypothesis at present:
The fundamentalist is a more truer Muslim in accordance what is specified in the Quran than the moderate Muslim, mystic Muslim, casual Muslim and indifferent Muslim.
Now who can blame the fundamentalist from performing his strict duty as a Muslim in compliance [objectively] with the verses of the Quran since there are no central authority to decide what is wrong or right.
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