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Old 09-13-2015, 12:51 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I find the above views to be an insult to Muslims [no need for Quran] in general and non-Muslims [re baby] and basic intelligence.
This is like forcing an orange to be an apple because both are fruits.

Note the general understanding of what is a 'Muslim'
A Muslim, sometimes spelled Moslem, relates to a person who follows the religion of Islam, a monotheistic and Abrahamic religion based on the Quran. Muslims consider the Quran to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad. -wiki
I understand wiki is limited, how I am very certain the above is generally what 1.5 billion (excluding and with the exception of Woodrow LI) define themselves as Muslim.



The above are merely your fictional thinking.
It is the Quran itself and no where else which asserts Jesus(a.s.), Moses(PBUH), Abraham(PBUH) are 'Muslim' in one sense.
The Quran is a work of humans who has self-interests on the above.
If Jesus, Moses, Abraham were around, each would not declare themselves as a 'Muslim.'



If you do not belief the Quran is the most critical element in the context of Islam and as a Muslim you are not give due respect to Allah.
The terms and conditions of the spiritual contract a Muslim entered with Allah can only come from the Quran. The others sources, e.g. Hadiths, Madhabs, etc. are merely guidelines and explanatory notes. These other sources do not have any divine authority over that of Allah's.



I wonder you really have read the Quran and understood thoroughly. Perhaps your memory is failing you. Suggest you read the refresh the Quran again. Even then I know you will be very bias and blinded rather than being objective.

It is not a personal opinion but rather it is objective by general convention. For example, the following direct and indirect words of Allah in the Quran are obviously threat of Hell Fire if a person do not believe or think about leaving Islam.
48:13. And as for him [infidel] who believeth not in Allah and His messenger Lo! We have prepared a flame for disbelievers.

53:57. The threatened Hour is nigh.

51:5. Lo! that wherewith ye are threatened is indeed true,

50:14. And the dwellers in the wood, and the folk of Tubba: every one denied their messengers, therefor My [Allah] threat took effect.

50:45. We are best aware of what they [infidels] say, and thou (O Muhammad) art in no wise a compeller over them [infidels]. But warn by the Qur’an him [Muslim] who feareth My threat.

50:20. And the trumpet is blown. This is the Threatened Day.
Note there are hundreds to almost a thousand of the above direct and indirect threats of hell and other threats delivered to Muslims and non-Muslims in the Quran.
I am sure many Muslims do feel threatened by the above either consciously or subliminally.


As I had insisted as in essence, a Muslim is represented in core by the revealed Quran via Muhammad. Thus a Muslim must adopt the Quran and whatever there in at 100%.
Chapter 1 is merely a very condensed summary [abstract] of the Quran and Chapter 112 merely define monotheism.
A very condensed summary [abstract] cannot explain the Straight Path that is mentioned in 1:6
5:48. And unto thee [Muhammad] have We revealed the Scripture [Quran] with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a Watcher over it. So judge between them [Muslims] by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each [Jews, Christians, Islamists] We have appointed a Divine Law and a traced-out way [path of actions & practices]. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community.
..........
The Straight Path is laid out in a traced-out way in the Quran for Quran-based-Muslims.
So how can one be a Quran-based-Muslim without the Quran?

I am not going into the details. It is the Madhabs and their deviations and exaggerations from the main principles of the Quran that adding more zeal and contributing to the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims that is going on in the world today.


I am aware the above ridiculous propositions of yours are due to the triggering of your impulses of the 'inoculation theory'.
You seem to be looking for the opinions of Muslims. Like all opinions virtually every Muslim will have an individual one. Other Muslims that read this have an obligation to give their opinion if it differs from me. As Muslims we do our best to correct each other and give our reasons.

Just using 50:20 as an example


Qaf - 50:20
وَنُفِخَ فِي الصُّورِ ذَلِكَ يَوْمُ الْوَعِيدِ (50:20)

Wanufikha fee alssoori thalika yawmu alwaAAeedi

and [in the end] the trumpet [of resurrection] will be blown: that will be the Day of a warning fulfilled. - 50:20 (Asad)

And the Trumpet shall be blown: that will be the Day whereof Warning (had been given). - 50:20 (Y. Ali)

And the trumpet is blown. This is the threatened Day. - 50:20 (Picktall)

The words yawmu alwaAAeedi are translated by

Pickthal as; This is the threatened Day
Ali as: that will be the Day whereof Warning (had been given).
Asad as: that will be the Day of a warning fulfilled.

Translates directly as Significant Day-- Greetings--- Holiday

That has to be interpreted, not translated and interpretations are always opinions containing the Bias of the Interpreter.

The phrase is not a threat. I personally think Asad gives the better interpretation there.

For 5:48 it is quite complicated and not speaking of the Qur'an It is best to look at at multiple interpretations as the direct Arabic makes no sense in English and has to be interpreted

You quoted one interpretation

5:48. And unto thee [Muhammad] have We revealed the Scripture [Quran] with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a Watcher over it. So judge between them [Muslims] by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each [Jews, Christians, Islamists] We have appointed a Divine Law and a traced-out way [path of actions & practices]. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community.





here are some others I bolded the same parts that are bolded in the interpretations you posted I also included the last sentence, which you omitted and colored it red for emphasis, It is not me posting as a mod. It is a very significant sentence and does indicate the ayyat is not reference to the Qur'an



And unto thee [O Prophet] have We vouchsafed this divine writ, setting forth the truth, confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and determining what is true therein. [64] Judge, then, between the followers of earlier revelation in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high, [65] and do not follow their errant views, forsaking the truth that has come unto thee. Unto every one of you have We appointed a [different] law and way of life. [66] And if God had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community: but [He willed it otherwise] in order to test you by means of what He has vouchsafed unto, you. [67] Vie, then, with one another in doing good works! Unto God you all must return; and then He will make you truly understand all that on which you were wont to differ. [68] - 5:48 (Asad)

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; - 5:48 (Y. Ali)

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. - 5:48 (Picktall)

When one has to rely upon interpretations I find it best to get as many opinions from as many Arabic speaking Muslims that you can. I do not consider myself an Arabic speaker as my spoken Arabic is limited to the Darija of Morocco. But I do believe I have a reasonable grasp of Qur'anic Arabic. I do graciously accept corrections from my Brothers and Sisters when they differ from my opinions. I am still a baby in terms of being a Muslim and am still learning.
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Old 09-13-2015, 01:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You seem to be looking for the opinions of Muslims. Like all opinions virtually every Muslim will have an individual one. Other Muslims that read this have an obligation to give their opinion if it differs from me. As Muslims we do our best to correct each other and give our reasons.
Re the question of 'threat' it was a response to your denying of threats in the Quran.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Threats are a personal opinion.
Quote:
Just using 50:20 as an example
Qaf - 50:20
وَنُفِخَ فِي الصُّورِ ذَلِكَ يَوْمُ الْوَعِيدِ (50:20)

Wanufikha fee alssoori thalika yawmu alwaAAeedi

and [in the end] the trumpet [of resurrection] will be blown: that will be the Day of a warning fulfilled. - 50:20 (Asad)

And the Trumpet shall be blown: that will be the Day whereof Warning (had been given). - 50:20 (Y. Ali)

And the trumpet is blown. This is the threatened Day. - 50:20 (Picktall)

The words yawmu alwaAAeedi are translated by

Pickthal as; This is the threatened Day
Ali as: that will be the Day whereof Warning (had been given).
Asad as: that will be the Day of a warning fulfilled.

Translates directly as Significant Day-- Greetings--- Holiday

That has to be interpreted, not translated and interpretations are always opinions containing the Bias of the Interpreter.

The phrase is not a threat. I personally think Asad gives the better interpretation there.
I have been researching extensively in the Quran for more than 9 months on a continual full time basis, so I do have a good 'feel' of it to understand 50:20 is a 'threat.'
"Warning" is also synonymous with 'threat' when we take the context into consideration.

Note 'threat' = Threat | Define Threat at Dictionary.com
1. a declaration of an intention or determination to inflict punishment, injury, etc., in retaliation for, or conditionally upon, some action or course; menace:
He confessed under the threat of imprisonment.
2. an indication or warning of probable trouble: The threat of a storm was in the air.


All those verses that threatened infidels and Muslims with Hell signify an obvious threat when the consequences are something like the following;
4:56. Lo! Those [infidels] who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them [the infidels] to the Fire. As often as their [the infidels] skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they [infidels] may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.
Quote:
For 5:48 it is quite complicated and not speaking of the Qur'an It is best to look at at multiple interpretations as the direct Arabic makes no sense in English and has to be interpreted

You quoted one interpretation

5:48. And unto thee [Muhammad] have We revealed the Scripture [Quran] with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a Watcher over it. So judge between them [Muslims] by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each [Jews, Christians, Islamists] We have appointed a Divine Law and a traced-out way [path of actions & practices]. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community.

here are some others I bolded the same parts that are bolded in the interpretations you posted I also included the last sentence, which you omitted and colored it red for emphasis, It is not me posting as a mod. It is a very significant sentence and does indicate the ayyat is not reference to the Qur'an

And unto thee [O Prophet] have We vouchsafed this divine writ, setting forth the truth, confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and determining what is true therein. [64] Judge, then, between the followers of earlier revelation in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high, [65] and do not follow their errant views, forsaking the truth that has come unto thee. Unto every one of you have We appointed a [different] law and way of life. [66] And if God had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community: but [He willed it otherwise] in order to test you by means of what He has vouchsafed unto, you. [67] Vie, then, with one another in doing good works! Unto God you all must return; and then He will make you truly understand all that on which you were wont to differ. [68] - 5:48 (Asad)

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; - 5:48 (Y. Ali)

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it.
So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee.
For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced out way.
Had Allah willed He could have made you one community.
But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works.
Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. - 5:48 (Picktall)

When one has to rely upon interpretations I find it best to get as many opinions from as many Arabic speaking Muslims that you can. I do not consider myself an Arabic speaker as my spoken Arabic is limited to the Darija of Morocco. But I do believe I have a reasonable grasp of Qur'anic Arabic. I do graciously accept corrections from my Brothers and Sisters when they differ from my opinions. I am still a baby in terms of being a Muslim and am still learning.
You said chapter 1 and Chapter 112 were sufficient for a Muslim. I said no.

I quoted 5:48 to demonstrate that to be a Muslim one has to follow the specific path that is revealed to Muhammad, i.e. the Quran
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture [Quran] with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it.
So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed [in the Quran], and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee.

Here is the point why the Quran as revealed to Muhammad is specifically for Muslims.

Had Allah willed He could have made you one community.
This imply that Allah regard Muslims [followers of Muhammad] as one distinct community that is different from other communities.
To cater for Muslims [originally Arabs] Allah revealed to an Arab in the Arabic language which is a distinct Quran as revealed to Muhammad.

For each [community] We have appointed a divine law and a traced out way.
Whether translators interpret the above as a traced out way, way of life, path, open way, etc. the implications is Allah has set out a distinct path [with generic divine law] that is suitable for that specific community.
To understand what that 'distinct' path, way of life, open way, one must therefore refer to that Quran that was revealed to Muhammad in 6,236 verses. There is no other way.

Therefore you are wrong in asserting that one can be a Muslim without reference to the Quran.

But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
"that which He hath given you" can only refer to the Quran which was revealed to Muhammad. If Allah 'try' you it has to refer to what is in the Quran.
Note Muslims has to vie with one another.
To vie with one another, they have to know what they are competing and that can only be obtained from the Quran.

My point:
From the above,
1. The Quran is a distinct revelation in distinct language for a distinct community.
2. To be a Muslim [Muhammad related] one has to be defined by this Quran and nothing else.
3. Therefore one cannot be a Muslim without reference to a Quran as revealed by Muhammad.

The claim of Jesus as a Muslim is in a very a loose and general sense. Jesus should be regarded as a pseudo-Muslim, not Muslim-proper.
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Old 09-13-2015, 02:05 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Re the question of 'threat' it was a response to your denying of threats in the Quran.



I have been researching extensively in the Quran for more than 9 months on a continual full time basis, so I do have a good 'feel' of it to understand 50:20 is a 'threat.'
"Warning" is also synonymous with 'threat' when we take the context into consideration.

Note 'threat' = Threat | Define Threat at Dictionary.com
1. a declaration of an intention or determination to inflict punishment, injury, etc., in retaliation for, or conditionally upon, some action or course; menace:
He confessed under the threat of imprisonment.
2. an indication or warning of probable trouble: The threat of a storm was in the air.


All those verses that threatened infidels and Muslims with Hell signify an obvious threat when the consequences are something like the following;
4:56. Lo! Those [infidels] who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them [the infidels] to the Fire. As often as their [the infidels] skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they [infidels] may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.
You said chapter 1 and Chapter 112 were sufficient for a Muslim. I said no.

I quoted 5:48 to demonstrate that to be a Muslim one has to follow the specific path that is revealed to Muhammad, i.e. the Quran
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture [Quran] with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it.
So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed [in the Quran], and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee.

Here is the point why the Quran as revealed to Muhammad is specifically for Muslims.

Had Allah willed He could have made you one community.
This imply that Allah regard Muslims [followers of Muhammad] as one distinct community that is different from other communities.
To cater for Muslims [originally Arabs] Allah revealed to an Arab in the Arabic language which is a distinct Quran as revealed to Muhammad.

For each [community] We have appointed a divine law and a traced out way.
Whether translators interpret the above as a traced out way, way of life, path, open way, etc. the implications is Allah has set out a distinct path [with generic divine law] that is suitable for that specific community.
To understand what that 'distinct' path, way of life, open way, one must therefore refer to that Quran that was revealed to Muhammad in 6,236 verses. There is no other way.

Therefore you are wrong in asserting that one can be a Muslim without reference to the Quran.

But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
"that which He hath given you" can only refer to the Quran which was revealed to Muhammad. If Allah 'try' you it has to refer to what is in the Quran.
Note Muslims has to vie with one another.
To vie with one another, they have to know what they are competing and that can only be obtained from the Quran.

My point:
From the above,
1. The Quran is a distinct revelation in distinct language for a distinct community.
2. To be a Muslim [Muhammad related] one has to be defined by this Quran and nothing else.
3. Therefore one cannot be a Muslim without reference to a Quran as revealed by Muhammad.

The claim of Jesus as a Muslim is in a very a loose and general sense. Jesus should be regarded as a pseudo-Muslim, not Muslim-proper.
As I posted in another thread

Quote:
Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.

Everything and every phenomenon in the world other than man is administered totally by God-made laws, ie. they are obedient to God and submissive to his laws, they are in the State of Islam. Man possesses the qualities of intelligence and choice, thus he is invited to submit to the good will of God and obey His law, ie, become a Muslim.

Submission to the good will of God, together with obedience to His beneficial Law, ie, becoming a Muslim, is the best safeguard for man's peace and harmony.

Islam dates back to the age of Adam and its message has been conveyed to man by God's prophets and messengers, including Abrahim, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

Islam's message has been restored and enforced in the last stage of the religious evolution by God's last prophet and messenger, Muhammad.

The word Allah in the Arabic language means God, or more accurately, The One and Only Eternal God, Creator of the Universe, Lord of all lords, King of all kings, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful. The word Allah to mean God is also used by Arabic speaking Jews and Christians.

ISLAM - The Meaning Of Islam
I am not saying a Muslim can ignore the Qur'an. I am saying a person that never heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an can be a Muslim

Many Muslims do not read Arabic and have never read the Qur'an. Translations are not the Qur'an.

There is no requirement to be familiar with the Qur'an to become a Muslim

Quote:
How does someone become a Muslim?

Simply by saying 'there is no god apart from God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God.' By this declaration the believer announces his or her faith in all God's messengers, and the scriptures they brought.

How to become a Muslim
for many Muslims that is all they will ever know about Islam and being a Muslim.

Yes as a person learns about Islam they do become more responsible for their beliefs and the more a person learns the greater level of responsibility they carry. But a Muslim who has no more knowledge of Islam than the words of the shahadah is equal to the Greatest islamic scholars, provided they are following Islam to the best of their ability and knowledge.
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Old 09-13-2015, 03:06 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As I posted in another thread
I am not saying a Muslim can ignore the Qur'an. I am saying a person that never heard of Muhammad(saws) or the Qur'an can be a Muslim
To be a Muslim one must at least declared the Shahada as you agreed above.
Therefore it is contradictory for a Muslim to have not heard of Muhammad, as his name is in the Shahada.
When the Shahada which is from the Quran is repeated, it implied a Muslim is familiar with the Quran [at least been told, informed or learned]
Therefore it is impossible for a Muslim to be ignorant of Muhammad or the Quran.

Quote:
Many Muslims do not read Arabic and have never read the Qur'an.
I agree.

Quote:
Translations are not the Qur'an.
Note the concept of reference and referent.
There is a difference between the reference of the Quran [the language] and the referent of the Quran [that message that is intended by Allah].
The Arabic language is thus the reference of the Quran to communicate the referent of the Quran [that message that is intended by Allah].
Translations may not be precise, but there is no big issue in communicating the referent of the Quran in any other translated languages.
I have asserted somewhere, there is nothing complicated in the Arabic Quran that cannot be translated via other languages.

Quote:
There is no requirement to be familiar with the Qur'an to become a Muslim
for many Muslims that [the Shahada] is all they will ever know about Islam and being
a Muslim.
I mentioned above, there is at least a minimal familiarity [or informed] there exists a Quran as revealed to Muhammad and a declaration of the Shahada therefrom.

Quote:
Yes as a person learns about Islam they do become more responsible for their beliefs and the more a person learns the greater level of responsibility they carry. But a Muslim who has no more knowledge of Islam than the words of the shahadah is equal to the Greatest islamic scholars, provided they are following Islam to the best of their ability and knowledge.
Note my earlier point re 5:48

But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are).
So vie one with another in good works.
Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
"that which He hath given you" can only refer to the Quran which was revealed to Muhammad.
If Allah 'try' you, that test has to refer to what is in the Quran.
Note Muslims has to vie with one another.
To vie with one another, they have to know what they are competing and that can only be obtained from the Quran.

Generally Muslims are expected to do their best in relation to their ability and knowledge.
There is also an exhortation by Allah to Muslims: "So vie one with another in good works. ..5:48"
I have also mentioned Muslims' performance will be judged and graded and ranked as stated in the Quran.

If a Muslim is illiterate in the middle of the Amazon jungle or some desert without access to modern facilities it is understandable s/he do her/his best to those circumstances.
However these days the majority of Muslims can easily have access to a Quran [books, ebook, internet reference, etc.] and experts, thus the onus is on the Muslims to update one's knowledge of the Quran and comply with what is expected.

To know what to do as a Muslim, one has to refer to the 6,236 verses of the Quran as revealed to Muhammad not the Torah or Gospel.
To do so effectively, one has to go back to my proposition of using the 6,236 verses of the Quran as a checklist to check on one's performance as a Muslim.
See http://www.city-data.com/forum/41145933-post62.html and various posts therein.

The result based on the checklist method is one will note the zealous fundamentalist Muslims would be the better performer as a truer Muslims than the majority of Muslims.
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Old 09-14-2015, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To be a Muslim one must at least declared the Shahada as you agreed above.
Therefore it is contradictory for a Muslim to have not heard of Muhammad, as his name is in the Shahada.
When the Shahada which is from the Quran is repeated, it implied a Muslim is familiar with the Quran [at least been told, informed or learned]
Therefore it is impossible for a Muslim to be ignorant of Muhammad or the Quran.

I agree.

Note the concept of reference and referent.
There is a difference between the reference of the Quran [the language] and the referent of the Quran [that message that is intended by Allah].
The Arabic language is thus the reference of the Quran to communicate the referent of the Quran [that message that is intended by Allah].
Translations may not be precise, but there is no big issue in communicating the referent of the Quran in any other translated languages.
I have asserted somewhere, there is nothing complicated in the Arabic Quran that cannot be translated via other languages.

I mentioned above, there is at least a minimal familiarity [or informed] there exists a Quran as revealed to Muhammad and a declaration of the Shahada therefrom.

Note my earlier point re 5:48

But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are).
So vie one with another in good works.
Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
"that which He hath given you" can only refer to the Quran which was revealed to Muhammad.
If Allah 'try' you, that test has to refer to what is in the Quran.
Note Muslims has to vie with one another.
To vie with one another, they have to know what they are competing and that can only be obtained from the Quran.

Generally Muslims are expected to do their best in relation to their ability and knowledge.
There is also an exhortation by Allah to Muslims: "So vie one with another in good works. ..5:48"
I have also mentioned Muslims' performance will be judged and graded and ranked as stated in the Quran.

If a Muslim is illiterate in the middle of the Amazon jungle or some desert without access to modern facilities it is understandable s/he do her/his best to those circumstances.
However these days the majority of Muslims can easily have access to a Quran [books, ebook, internet reference, etc.] and experts, thus the onus is on the Muslims to update one's knowledge of the Quran and comply with what is expected.

To know what to do as a Muslim, one has to refer to the 6,236 verses of the Quran as revealed to Muhammad not the Torah or Gospel.
To do so effectively, one has to go back to my proposition of using the 6,236 verses of the Quran as a checklist to check on one's performance as a Muslim.
See http://www.city-data.com/forum/41145933-post62.html and various posts therein.

The result based on the checklist method is one will note the zealous fundamentalist Muslims would be the better performer as a truer Muslims than the majority of Muslims.
A person can be extremely knowledgable about the Qur'an and not have the faintest idea on how to perform Islam.

There are several religions that use the Qur'an as scripture, yet they do not perform Islam 4 examples immediately come to mind Baha'i, Druze, Yazidi and Sikh.

to learn how to perfom Islam and what most muslims believe one needs to go the the Ahadith, Sunnah and Sira. Which are summed up in each of the 4 Madhabs.

Your checklist would be appropriate if:

1. The Qur'an taught how to perform Islam
2. Practicing Islam was not a personal covenant between the individual and Allaah(swt) with no intermediaries
3. Their was no option for analytical deduction in Islam

But because Islam is an individual personal covenant there can be no standardized checklist for all Muslims. In fact the existence of such would be a violation of free will, going against our command to follow no Earthly leaders and placing an intermediary condition between the individual and Allaah(swt)
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Old 09-14-2015, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To be a Muslim one must at least declared the Shahada as you agreed above.
Therefore it is contradictory for a Muslim to have not heard of Muhammad, as his name is in the Shahada.
When the Shahada which is from the Quran is repeated, it implied a Muslim is familiar with the Quran [at least been told, informed or learned]
Therefore it is impossible for a Muslim to be ignorant of Muhammad or the Quran.

I agree.

Note the concept of reference and referent.
There is a difference between the reference of the Quran [the language] and the referent of the Quran [that message that is intended by Allah].
The Arabic language is thus the reference of the Quran to communicate the referent of the Quran [that message that is intended by Allah].
Translations may not be precise, but there is no big issue in communicating the referent of the Quran in any other translated languages.
I have asserted somewhere, there is nothing complicated in the Arabic Quran that cannot be translated via other languages.

I mentioned above, there is at least a minimal familiarity [or informed] there exists a Quran as revealed to Muhammad and a declaration of the Shahada therefrom.

Note my earlier point re 5:48

But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are).
So vie one with another in good works.
Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
"that which He hath given you" can only refer to the Quran which was revealed to Muhammad.
If Allah 'try' you, that test has to refer to what is in the Quran.
Note Muslims has to vie with one another.
To vie with one another, they have to know what they are competing and that can only be obtained from the Quran.

Generally Muslims are expected to do their best in relation to their ability and knowledge.
There is also an exhortation by Allah to Muslims: "So vie one with another in good works. ..5:48"
I have also mentioned Muslims' performance will be judged and graded and ranked as stated in the Quran.

If a Muslim is illiterate in the middle of the Amazon jungle or some desert without access to modern facilities it is understandable s/he do her/his best to those circumstances.
However these days the majority of Muslims can easily have access to a Quran [books, ebook, internet reference, etc.] and experts, thus the onus is on the Muslims to update one's knowledge of the Quran and comply with what is expected.

To know what to do as a Muslim, one has to refer to the 6,236 verses of the Quran as revealed to Muhammad not the Torah or Gospel.
To do so effectively, one has to go back to my proposition of using the 6,236 verses of the Quran as a checklist to check on one's performance as a Muslim.
See http://www.city-data.com/forum/41145933-post62.html and various posts therein.

The result based on the checklist method is one will note the zealous fundamentalist Muslims would be the better performer as a truer Muslims than the majority of Muslims.
Just answering this part.


Quote:
To be a Muslim one must at least declared the Shahada as you agreed above.
Therefore it is contradictory for a Muslim to have not heard of Muhammad, as his name is in the Shahada.
When the Shahada which is from the Quran is repeated, it implied a Muslim is familiar with the Quran [at least been told, informed or learned]
Therefore it is impossible for a Muslim to be ignorant of Muhammad or the Quran.
Not certain if I did agree that "To be a Muslim one must at least declared the Shahada as you agreed above." because there should be a qualifier to it that being "To the best of ones. ability and knowledge." No one will be accountable for that which through no fault of their own they do not know. For some people the only thing they migh know is that there is only one God(swt) a desire to serve that one God(swt) is sufficient to be their Shahadah. In Islam a persons intent and sincerity is the criteria for how a good a Muslim is, not how well they follow rules or commandments. I person could follow all of ayyats in the Qur'an meticuously and not be a Muslim if they do not have the sincere intent to submit to Allaah(swt). But if a person is sincere in their intent they will most likely do a diligent search to learn all they can about Islam including learning traditions, opinions of Scholars, (Fatwas), Madhabs etc.

It is quite possible that some Jews have no knowledge of John the Baptist(Pbuh) or Jesus(a.s.) or Muhammad(saws) through no fault of their own and therefore are practicing Islam. There could be Sabeeans that Have no Knowledge of Jesus(a.s.) or Muhammad(saws) through no fault of their own and therefore are practicing Islam to the best of their ability. There could be non-trinitarian Christians who through no fault of their own have no knowledge of Muhammad(saws) and therefore are practicing Islam to the best of their ability.

While they might vehemently deny being Muslim, that is because they do not understand what Islam is.It is possible for some of them to be among the best of Muslims depending upon their sincerity and intent to serve God(swt)

How ever as they become exposed to the Qur'an and Islamic teachings their responsibilities change as their knowledge grows, We are not graded or judged for that, which through no fault of our own, we do not know.

Another reason Muslims say they do not know who is a Muslim.
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just answering this part.

Not certain if I did agree that "To be a Muslim one must at least declared the Shahada as you agreed above." because there should be a qualifier to it that being "To the best of ones. ability and knowledge." No one will be accountable for that which through no fault of their own they do not know. For some people the only thing they migh know is that there is only one God(swt) a desire to serve that one God(swt) is sufficient to be their Shahadah. In Islam a persons intent and sincerity is the criteria for how a good a Muslim is, not how well they follow rules or commandments. I person could follow all of ayyats in the Qur'an meticuously and not be a Muslim if they do not have the sincere intent to submit to Allaah(swt). But if a person is sincere in their intent they will most likely do a diligent search to learn all they can about Islam including learning traditions, opinions of Scholars, (Fatwas), Madhabs etc.
OK. I understand the following
2:286 Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. For it (is only) that which it hath earned, and against it (only) that which it hath deserved.

But Allah also exhort Muslims to do their best and vie with each other in accordance to their scope and competence. I have already provided numerous verses on this earlier. [I will avoid repeats to save time]

The resultant is there are degrees of performance of a Muslims which will decide where they stand and what they will earn in paradise.
Point is sometimes a person's best intent they have in mind may not meet with the actual expectations of Allah.
Therefore I argue the true Muslims is measured by sincere intents that matches what is stipulated in the Quran by Allah plus act out the DUTY according to what is expected in the Quran.


Quote:
It is quite possible that some Jews have no knowledge of John the Baptist(Pbuh)
or Jesus(a.s.) or Muhammad(saws) through no fault of their own and therefore
are practicing Islam. There could be Sabeeans that Have no Knowledge of
Jesus(a.s.) or Muhammad(saws) through no fault of their own and therefore are
practicing Islam to the best of their ability. There could be non-trinitarian
Christians who through no fault of their own have no knowledge of Muhammad(saws)
and therefore are practicing Islam to the best of their ability.

While they might vehemently deny being Muslim, that is because they do not understand what Islam is.It is possible for some of them to be among the best of Muslims depending upon their sincerity and intent to serve God(swt)
You are defining "Islam" too loosely in this case.
It is also possible there are monotheistic Hindus and others who perform all the basics of what is expected from 'Islam' and thus can be said to be Muslim. This is bad logic and intellect which has no sincerity and integrity.
In principles 'Concepts' [not words] are defined by a strict set of properties and qualities that differentiate them from other each other.
Note this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept
Therefore the concept of 'Islam' 'Muslim' 'Jew' 'Christian' are very specific.

Note the following which distinctively give you a clue as to who is a Muslim.
2:177. It is not righteousness that ye [Muslims] turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he [Muslim] who: .....

2:143 ..... And We appointed the qiblah [in Jerusalem] which ye [Muslims] formerly observed only that We might know him [Muslim] who followeth the messenger, [to differentiate] from him [the infidel] who turneth on his heels [from the faith]. .........
The above indicate a clue as to how a Muslim is differentiated from the infidels [the corrupted Jews, Trinitarian Christians, non-Muslims]. Whilst the above refer to the old Qiblah, the new one in Kaaba is meant for the same reason, i.e. to identify who is a Muslim and to differentiate a Muslims from the infidel.

Therefore in the modern sense and in accordance to the Quran, a Muslim [beside doing All the obligatory duties as specified in the Quran] must recognize he must face [in principle] the Kaaba when he prays.

In this case, a monotheists who accidentally happened to perform the basic of what a real Muslim does but do not have the awareness of the need to pray in the direction of the Kaaba cannot be in the modern sense be called a Muslim-proper. [in addition to know what is the Quran, and who is Muhammad].

Your forcing of square pegs [those who appear to be Muslims] into round holes [what the concept of 'Islam' and 'Muslim' precisely meant]. Note on a more truthful level what you are trying to do with your rhetoric is a deception due to psychological reasons.

Quote:
How ever as they become exposed to the Qur'an and Islamic teachings their responsibilities change as their knowledge grows, We are not graded or judged for that, which through no fault of our own, we do not know.
Another reason Muslims say they do not know who is a Muslim.
As I understand [worth repeating]
2:286 Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. For it (is only) that which it hath earned, and against it (only) that which it hath deserved.
Then during Muhammad's time handicaps and exceptions were give to the Bedouins [wandering Arabs] in their performance as a Muslims and other circumstances [the weak, sick, lame, during war, etc.].

BUT NOW we are in the 20th Century with its full range of knowledge and technology that will enable the average person to get access to understand the Quran more precisely.
What is so difficult in making the attempt to understand the full terms and conditions in the Quran in relation to the covenant a Muslim entered into with Allah?

The scope and potential of the present is very much greater than Muslims of the past in understanding the terms and conditions expected of a Muslim within [solely] the Quran.
So a true Muslim has to act his Duty as a Muslim to the best of his ability within his present Scope.

The current Muslims [most] has the access to the 6,236 verses of the Quran and many are capable of understanding what they represent [if not to get the correct guidance from expositions]. Once a Muslim can understand, the truer Muslim has to align with the Quran and act according to what is in the Quran.

Last edited by Continuum; 09-14-2015 at 11:18 PM..
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